"In a nutshell, we have moved from a state of poverty at its lowest to a state of providence. Not great wealth(but we will get there by faith) but providence. We can see how far we have come. Everytime we remind each other of how far we have come and its only by Gods Grace." - Papili

I hope you realize as a believer that whatever you have or DON'T have as a believer, you are in a state of providence. To state that you will get to great wealth by faith depends on what God's plan is for your life. In other parts of the world, Christians live in great poverty, and persecution and are beaten, raped, killed, etc. and it's not because they haven't heard the "name it and Claim it" preachers or the "prosperity" preachers. The apostles were dirt poor, Jesus had got Peter to get a coin out of a fishes mouth to pay the roman head tax.
It may be God's will for you to be wealthy but I wouldn't assume it is just because you live in America. If on the other hand, you have the joy of giving much more than is asked or required and want to give more, that's different.

Again I agree with Homesell. The prosperity teachers teach 10% name it and claim it.
That is not the faith we are to use when giving but it is what many Christians have reduced giving to.
I have even heard Christians say things like ''I sent Benny Hinn $100. So I am believing in a seven fold return. Then I can buy that big screen TV I want''.

papili,
Thank you for sharing your story.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Just to clarify something, my story and belief in getting more is not based on what my church has taught me or what sone 'preacher' tells me. I simply opened my Bible, and there it was. Loud and clear.

The trouble with the name it and claim it, that it is not bibical, the disiples did not retire to a private island with servants for all of the great work they did for the Lord.

The blessings and the things we receive is not always material, that is where they make their error.

Fr. Chuck,
Point will made and said.
Fred

One thing here.. are you people saying that your required to pay "god" or your "church" a set percentage of your personal income.. if so then in my opinion your religion has not improved.. in my religion we are not required to tithe or whatever you call it but there are offerings made when you can if you can, if not the gods do not disown you, because you offer what you can not in material goods but in thoughts and actions etc.. ( it might be tithing or what have you) now I am not bashing your religion but how is it right that you must pay the chruch... your god doesn't require you to pay him in money but in love, respect and the actions you do. Or so you would think

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by binx44

one thing here.. are you people saying that your required to pay "god" or your "church" a set percentage of your personal income....? if so then in my opinion your religion has not improved.. in my religion we are not required to tithe or whatever you call it but there are offerings made when you can if you can, if not the gods do not disown you, because you offer what you can not in material goods but in thoughts and actions etc.. ( it might be tithing or what have you) now i am not bashing your religion but how is it right that you must pay the church... your god doesn't require you to pay him in money but in love, respect and the actions you do. or so you would think

---

Some good points made here. My issue is this. I can "tithe" or "pay God" in ways other than giving money to a church. Anytime you make contributions to charities, either money or time you are giving back to God. When you give to United Way, you are giving to God.
When you contribute to a homeless shelter you are giving to God. God is not just in a church. And personally, I don't like supporting the fancy trimmings in the church. The cathedral like buildings in my opinion are an insult to God. Look at the Vatican or The Crystal Cathedral in Ca. They are a bad joke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cozyk

And personally, I don't like supporting the fancy trimmings in the church. The cathedral like buildings in my opinion are an insult to God. Look at the Vatican or The Crystal Cathedral in Ca. They are a bad joke.

---

About the self righteous church

Would You Crucify Him by John Michael Talbot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo-2P...om=PL&index=14



Chorus:
Would you crucify Him
Would you crucify Him.. my religious friend?
Would you crucify Him.. talking 'bout the sweet Lord Jesus
If He'd walk right here among you once again?


She's askin', How many times have you looked down to the harlot
Lookin' through her tears, pretendin' you don't know?
For once you were just like her, how can you be now so self righteous
When in the name of the Lord you throw the first stone

So now I turn to you through your years of your robes and stained-glass windows
Do you vainly echo your prayers "to please the Lord?"
Profess the Marriage with your tongue, while your mind dreams like the harlot
But if the Judge looks to your thoughts can't you guess your reward?

Yet how many times have you quoted from your Bible
To justify your eye for your eye and your tooth for your tooth?
You say that He didn't mean what He was plainly sayin'
But like the Pharisee, my friend, you're an educated fool!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

About the self righteous church

Would You Crucify Him by John Michael Talbot
YouTube - John Michael Talbot - Would You Crucify Him?



Chorus:
Would you crucify Him
Would you crucify Him..., my religious friend?
Would you crucify Him..., talking 'bout the sweet Lord Jesus
If He'd walk right here among you once again?


She's askin', How many times have you looked down to the harlot
Lookin' through her tears, pretendin' you don't know?
For once you were just like her, how can you be now so self righteous
When in the name of the Lord you throw the first stone

So now I turn to you through your years of your robes and stained-glass windows
Do you vainly echo your prayers "to please the Lord?"
Profess the Marriage with your tongue, while your mind dreams like the harlot
But if the Judge looks to your thoughts can't you guess your reward?

Yet how many times have you quoted from your Bible
To justify your eye for your eye and your tooth for your tooth?
You say that He didn't mean what He was plainly sayin'
But like the Pharisee, my friend, you're an educated fool!

---

I'm not sure what your point is?

It's a song about how people think that going to churches with fancy trimming and giving their money to them will save them when actually they are basically making God cry because even though they go to church and give their hearts are far from God with themselves righteous attitudes.


Actually it has been 30 yrs since I heard the song and I grabbed the wrong one. This one is about self righteous Christians but the other was more about how they hide behind the fancy church walls with themselves righteousness.

binx44
Considering all that God gas given me I owe Him much more than I could ever repay no matter how rich I might be.
Tithing money or service to the work of God on this planet should be a gift of love and thanksgiving for anyone who believes in and loves God.
That is the way I see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

but is money really an item that he would like to receive? I know since the 7 sins changed wealth (or money which ever it is) is a sin now... does that make any difference. I could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasn't used so why use it now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by binx44

but is money really an item that he would like to recieve? i know since the 7 sins changed wealth (or money which ever it is) is a sin now... does that make any difference.? i could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasnt used so why use it now?

---

It's used for practical reasons like to pay the mortgage on the church buildings, the electricity, gas, insurance, the minister, associate minister, youth minister, choir director, up keep, hymnals, choir robes, literature, foreign missions, parsonage, possible health ins. For church employees, pianos, organs, office equipment, the church bus if applicable, and more. It's a business. It has expenses. Only thing is, it does not pay taxes. What's wrong with this picture?

CozyK,
Good examples.
Fred

I could understand a service to the work of god on this planet but even back then money wasn't used so why use it now?[/QUOTE]

This is because back then, their mode of exchange was abit different than now. Barter trade was practiced more than now. Their crops and cattle were used as a meams of payment. Because of technology advancement, money and other forms have to be used nowadays.

papili,
Perhaps you did not notice that money was used way back in Solomon's temple and Jesus upset the tables of the money changers in the second temple.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

papili,
Perhaps you did not notice that money was used way back in Solomon's temple and Jesus upset the tables of the money changers in the second temple.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

That I know, I even know judas betrayed Jesus for money. I was misquoting one who had said money was not used back then and why now. Back then, both money and barter trade were very much used. And only now money has surpassed the other forms of exchange.

adam7gur
You have given me something more to think about regarding the Holy Spirit.
Thanks.
Fred

450 donn
Sorry for intervening here but I agree with homesell a businessman doesn't tithe of his gross income but on his profit, his increase, and this is so with the tithe. The israelites only tithed on the increase, the increase in flocks and the increase in crops once the seed was taken and the servant didn't tithe.
But in any case tithing is part of the Old Testament Law and is not required of the Christian we are required to give much more since everything we own belongs to God and so we make offerings and we should not use a formula to calculate how much we should give, this is mean spirited

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cozyk

It's used for practical reasons like to pay the mortgage on the church buildings, the electricity, gas, insurance, the minister, associate minister, youth minister, choir director, up keep, hymnals, choir robes, literature, foreign missions, parsonage, possible health ins. for church employees, pianos, organs, office equipment, the church bus if applicable, and more. It's a business. It has expenses. Only thing is, it does not pay taxes. What's wrong with this picture?

---

Seems to me it is used for a lot of purposes the tithe was never intended to cover. I don't see charitable works among your list and I can be certain that the Old Testament tithe was not meant to pay the levites.

You are right the church has become a business and the Word of God is being used to justify the shearing of the sheep

We as Latter Day Saints pay 10 percent whole heartedly from our gross , and any extra blessings we may have received. Our gross and extra however, is personally known only between us and God.

This covers Our food storages , Missionary workers in the field, build our churches etc. We do not pass a collection plate. Anyone of our members need anything , they know we have a fund set aside to help them in their time of need, if it be a worthy cause.
They need a job , chances are one of us can help them find one. We feel even that we will be blessed for it.

paraclete,
It is good to see you here again.
Fred

I find this very inspired!

Exposing The Tithe Lie

I personally do not believe we the church are told to tithe. We are told to be cheerful givers... give more than 10 percent if you can but we aren't under the law. If we WERE under the law... it would be from your gross income.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by classyT

I personally do not believe we the church are told to tithe. We are told to be cheerful givers....give more than 10 percent if you can but we aren't under the law. If we WERE under the law...it would be from your gross income.

---

I agree with you, classy, the New Testament standard, the standard for Christians, is 2 Corinthians 9 but like most Christian standards it requires serious commitment. It is far easier to operate under the Law and the Church has used the Law to create a rule without discerning that to operate under the Law you must fulfill all of the Law.

I cannot see how tithing can operate without recreating the conditions under which the Jewish system operated, it is a foolishness and false to say that the tithe is 10% of gross income. There is no indication in Scripture that it operated this way in Israel or Judah and the priests and Levites were fed through offerings, the tithe operated on increase in flocks and crops.

In my Church we are asked to give 10% after taxes, not of gross income.
We are asked to give 10% to the Church OR 5% to The Church and 5% to other good causes the Red Cross, the local food bank for the poor, etc.
It comes to mind that Jesus asked a young man to give Everything to the poor and follow Him. The young man did not.
Then there is the bible story about the couple who died becauae the lied about selling everything and giving it to the poor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

In my Church we are asked to give 10% after taxes, not of gross income.
We are asked to give 10% to the Church OR 5% to The Church and 5% to other good causes the Red Cross, the local food bank for the poor, etc.
It comes to mind that Jesus asked a young man to give EVERTHING to the poor and follow Him. The young man did not.
Then there is the bible story about the couple who died becauae the lied about selling everything and giving it to the poor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Hi Fred. I look at the examples you gave and actually they have nothing to do with tithing and everything to do with heart attitude and both had the same wrong heart attitude, their money was more important than their salvation. Literally they had gained the world and lost their soul. You cannot attain righteousness by following a perscription of works rather giving to the poor and supporting the church are an outworking of Christ in you.

There will always be religious people to whom the form is more mportant than the substance. It is an unfortunate part of religion. The error is in a structure that supports this form of thinking and tithing in a Christian context is unfortunately part of that, form over substance.

2 Cor. 9: 6-11: Remember this; The person who plants a little will have a small harvest, but the person who plants a lot will have a big harvest. 7 .Each one should give as you have
Decided in your heart to give. You should not be sad when you give, and should not give
Because you feel forced to give. God loves the person who gives happily. 8. And God can give you more blessings than you need. Then you will always have plenty of everthing- enough to give to every good work. 9. It is written in the Scriptures: " He gives freely to the poor. The things he does are right and will contiue forever". 10. God is the One who gives seed to the farmer and bread for food. He gives you all the seed you need and makes it grow so there will be a great harvest from your goodness. 11. He will make you
Rich in every way so that you can always give freely. And your giving through us will cause many to give thanks to God.
To answer your question, it all depends on how much you want to reap. Read Luke 6:38.

My husband and I tithe. We can't afford not too.

Maggie 3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maggie 3

2 Cor. 9: 6-11: Remember this; The person who plants a little will have a small harvest, but the person who plants a lot will have a big harvest. 7 .Each one should give as you have
decided in your heart to give. You should not be sad when you give, and should not give
because you feel forced to give. God loves the person who gives happily. 8. And God can give you more blessings than you need. Then you will always have plenty of everthing- enough to give to every good work. 9. It is written in the Scriptures: " He gives freely to the poor. The things he does are right and will contiue forever". 10. God is the One who gives seed to the farmer and bread for food. He gives you all the seed you need and makes it grow so there will be a great harvest from your goodness. 11. He will make you
rich in every way so that you can always give freely. And your giving through us will cause many to give thanks to God.
To answer your question, it all depends on how much you want to reap. Read Luke 6:38.

My husband and I tithe. We can't afford not too.

Maggie 3

---

You no doubt know that this Scripture as nothing to do with tithing but is specifically about Christian giving, You cannot reap from tithing. If Paul was writing about tithing he would have said so, but he was not and he did not.

The way I understand the word tithing means giving.
What else does it mean, if anything?

As I understand it Fred tithing was an obligation the Israelites had to God under their Law.

There was no taxation as we know it, so the tithe provided for the welfare system and enabled the Israelites to fulfill their Spiritual obligations of visiting the Temple on feast days. By keeping the first fruits of their labours holy unto the Lord, the Israelites acknowledged God as the giver of all things. Their "Church" was "funded" by the Offerings and Sacrifices made in response to their Law. In no sense could the tithe be considered free will giving.

The old testament teaches us that the "tithe' is the first tenth of our increase. Like it or not. In Hebrews 7 they are discussing the tithe and it transcends the Old Testament by the one who receives the tithe after the order of Melchizdek.
The scriptural definition of the tithe is the tenth part of the FIRST fruit. So to be structurally correct you are to give 10% before taxes, not after. Anything less is an offering. Anything more is an offering.

paraclete,
I still believe that tithing means giving.
And it is mentioned in the New Testament.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The first one to tithe was Abraham and he gave tithes to Melchizedek.But, he did not gave from his wealth and owning.Remember he chased the enemy who had captured Lot and got the spoils of Sodom that the enemy has stolen from Sodom.On his way back and before getting at his tends where all his wealth was ,Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek after Melchizedek came to meet him and offered to Abraham bread and wine.Melchizedek never asked,Abraham gave as a thank you and he gave from the spoils not his own wealth.Amazingly he also gave the rest of the spoils to the King of Sodom, so in fact he kept nothing, so if Abraham is our example to tithe then I guess we should give everything.But the truth is that tithing has nothing to do with the NT because in the OT people gave tithes because the Levites had no inheritance, no land no wealth.God was their inheritance.The people gave tithes for their sins and the Levites were entitled to keep them for their own needs, and tithing was never about money,it was always about food.So if I was a fisherman or a tax collector I had to turn my money to specific food and then tithe.How did we twist all this into giving ten percent of our income?Isn't it written that we are all priests(Levites)?Isn't it written that we should give according to how much we want and our heart tells us?Does only ten percent of our owning belong to God or is He entitled of all of it?
If we are to keep some of the law we should then follow the entire law and not pick according to our interests.If we tithe why not then circumsize our flesh?
Tithing is not giving and it is not in the NT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adam7gur

The first one to tithe was Abraham and he gave tithes to Melchizedek.But, he did not gave from his wealth and owning.Remember he chased the enemy who had captured Lot and got the spoils of Sodom that the enemy has stolen from Sodom.On his way back and before getting at his tends whre all his wealt was ,Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek after Melchizedek came to meet him and offered to Abraham bread and wine.Melchizedek never asked,Abraham gave as a thank you and he gave from the spoils not his own wealth.Amazingly he also gave the rest of the spoils to the King of Sodom, so in fact he kept nothing, so if Abraham is our example to tithe then I guess we should give everything.But the truth is that tithing has nothing to do with the NT because in the OT people gave tithes because the Levites had no inheritance, no land no wealth.God was their inheritance.The people gave tithes for their sins and the Levites were entitled to keep them for their own needs, and tithing was never about money,it was always about food.So if I was a fisherman or a tax collector I had to turn my money to specific food and then tithe.How did we twist all this into giving ten percent of our income?Isn't it written that we are all our priests(Levites)?Isn't it written that we should give according to how much we want and our heart tells us?Does only ten percent of our owning belong to God or is He entitled of all of it?
If we are to keep some of the law we should then follow the entire law and not pick and choose according to our interests.If we tithe why not then circumsize our flesh?
Tithing is not giving and it is not in the NT.

---

You have a good grasp, Adam, Abraham is not an example of giving from income because he didn't give from his income but he gave from what belonged to others, therefore his actions did not form the basis of the tithe.

There are many misinterpretations by those who seek to have us give to them but if we are all levites it is us who are entitled to receive tithes, so let us go to the Church and ask them for a tithe or to feed us from the store house, it would be interesting to see the outcome. You speak of circumcision to Fred, and as he is a Catholic no doubt he is circumcised? Didn't Paul tell us to be wary of the circumcisers?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

There are many misinterpretations by those who seek to have us give to them but if we are all levites it is us who are entitled to receive tithes, so let us go to the Church and ask them for a tithe or to feed us from the store house, it would be interesting to see the outcome.

---

That would be a great change!
[/QUOTE] You speak of circumcision to Fred, and as he is a Catholic no doubt he is circumcised? Didn't Paul tell us to be wary of the circumcisers?[/QUOTE]
I was not referring to Fred since I have no clue what Catholics believe about this.
I simply asked if someone tithes according the Mosaic law,then why not also circumsize?

Then please for you that believe that tithe is OT how do you justify Hebrews7?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 450donn

Then please for you that believe that tithe is OT how do you justify Hebrews7?

---

If you have a quote let's hear it

Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with the CHURCH tithing. The writer is making a argument that Jesus is a greater high priest than the high priest then those in the OT. If you put the chapter of Hebrews in context tithing was used as part of a comparison between Melchizedek and the Old Covenant priests. It isn't in any way picture or a description of the way Christians should give today.

Now the verse MY Pastor uses from the NT comes from the Lord Jesus to the Jews. But I have to scratch my head because the Lord Jesus was talking to the Jews under the Law. It wasn't written to the church. You will find the only instruction to the church about actual collection and GIVING is by the Apostle Paul. He simply says to give and then again to do it cheerfully. Those are the instructions having said all that I believe that 10 percent is a great way to give but I am not under a command.