I am going by their testimony which indicates a gospel that does not align with the Biblical gospel.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
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I am going by their testimony which indicates a gospel that does not align with the Biblical gospel.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.
Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Jesus speaks of two things:
1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit
Then he speaks of two things again:
1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.
The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.
Well my friend at the resurection their we will receive our rewards acoording to the acts we do on earth, those who follows the actions of Jesus from the babtisms and righteosness reacieve the highest order of heaven for their reward i.e. the celestial kingdom which has glory like the sun, I think that the thief beside Jesus on the cross will acquired the third level of the kingdom the telestial kingdom or better yet the second level which is the terrestrial kigdom but certainly not the celestial kingdom which only can be attained through baptism in water and following the paths of righteosness, I'm afraid to say that thos christians who do not get baptised through immersion of water like Jesus will either inherit the second or third level of the Kingdom of God
In the heart dude you must be born again, or more specifically by the way you be thinking and having the out look on lifeQuote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
niaro - I don't think there are levels to heaven such as you are describing... I wonder if you are referring to the 3rd heaven Paul talks about which I take to simply mean, the kingdom of God. There is a separateness to the earth, the atmosphere, and the realm of God which I believe is what Paul refers to as the 3rd heaven. But niaro, God does not reduce his followers to categories like ultra-Christian, decent-Christian, and marginal-Christian. That's a construct of our own imagination because that is how we see ourselves as better than some but less than some, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by niaro
What you are putting forth is not a biblical concept by any means but perhaps a misunderstanding of what Paul mentions in Corinthians.
Sincerely.
sndbay,
Your question to Tj3 is a good one.
It falls into the category of thou shalt not judge.
Tom does NOT know what is in a person's heart who had been baptized, only God knows. Yet Tom claims to know baptized people who are not saved.
Only God is the judge.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
If someone professes a false gospel, or if someone denies the true God, why would you call that judging their heart? It is judging their words, which scripture commands us to do.
- Be not deceived (requires judgment (Matt 24:4, Luke 21:8, 2 Thess.2:3;
Eph.5:6; Colossians 2:8).
- Test spirits (to test requires a pass/fail judgment) (John 4:1)
- Apostle Paul accused the believers at Galatia of being "foolish" and "bewitched" (Gal.2:1), and which caused him to wish that the false teachers would castrate themselves because of their deceptive teaching about circumcision (Gal.5:12).
- Jesus congratulated the church at Ephesus for rooting out false apostles (Rev.2:1-3).
- The Apostle Paul says that he "did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears" about the false teachers who troubled the church at Ephesus both from within and without (Acts 20:28-31).
- John 7:24 Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Tj3
You have yet to answer my question where did Jesus say that water is flesh?
If that is the case then where Scripture says the Jesus and his disciples when out baptizing where the was much water, it was mush flesh.
Fred
I did Fred, twice. How many times would you like?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
One more time, please and I hope that I will see it.
Fred
Post #42 is what you are looking for Fred.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
What I can't confirm in what Tom is saying is whether he believes baptism is essentail to his faith in Christ Jesus. I have seen where some think it is obedience to do so, and so they are baptized. Which I can acknowledge that baptism is an act of righteousness in obedience to the Will of God.
However I also believe baptism takes on a deeper understanding because once we are baptized scripture tells us that his hand of fire is within. Christ dwells within us. Scripture also saw once baptized we are dead in Christ and able to rise as He did. Scripture after scripture gives evidence of baptism being essentail, and sufficient in follow faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Matthew 3:13-14 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Reference: Luke 3:21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
If anyone believes scripture is the Word of God, and their faith does confess belief in the begotten Son of God as Christ Jesus, then baptism as it is written, is profitable in offering godliness.
One can not go their own way and preach their own solution with a mixture of reasonings. I feel false teaching has shown this method in evidence already.
Where if we would just hear HIS voice and see HIS example, we could find our way in HIS way.
"For neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creation." Galatians 6:15
Circumcision was the hot topic among new Christians in that day, after all, Jesus was circumcised and it was something we could do to help in the process.
Paul considered the NEW CREATION to be of utmost importance. Nothing matters except this creative work of God! Neither circumcision, nor baptism, nor any other external human action or religious rite is "anything" if the new creation is absent. On the other hand, if God has made us new creatures, the absence of circumcision("uncircumcision") or baptism or speaking in tongues or any other religious rite is not "anything" either! The only thing that matters for any of us is this: "Am I a new creature, or am I still the same person that I have always been?" If I am the same person that I've always been, then I am not a Christian, and no amount of church attendance, liturgy, religious ceremony, "going forward at the invitation" or "accepting Jesus" means anything.
Okay and this goes back to one point of fact. The heart is the circumcision which is the love of Christ, faith to follow, faith in HIS way being the only way.. The vine .. Hear HIS VOICE which is the simplicity of Christ JesusQuote:
Originally Posted by homesell
And Paul feared we might be beguiled as Eve was by enticing words.
Right sndbay,
So no believer would think that maybe they have an old heart and a new heart, God specifically says, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh". EZekiel 36:26 Instead of a hard, cold, unfeeling heart, the christian is given a soft, warm, living heart that is sensitive to the things of God.
Ezekiel 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
For there is a promise from God...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Third time, Fred.
--------------------
Fred,
Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.
Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Jesus speaks of two things:
1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit
Then he speaks of two things again:
1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.
The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.
I don't know if anyone will agree with me, but here are my thoughts.
Being baptised is encouraged, and should be done.
But I don't ever recall hearing jesus once say 'you will not go to heaven if your not baptized'
The ONLY requirement for salvation is to believe in jesus christ as the lord and savior.
BUT jesus also said that he wants us to be baptized. So I believe we should all do it.
But no I don't believe it's a REQUIREMENT
But if you already believe in jesus christ as your savior, why not take that extra step? :)
Nice summary of what we find in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniepepsi
Baptism is a grace absolutely necessary for salvation, without it there can be no justification. The reason is in the way that John the Baptist prepared (Cf. Is 40.3). Immersion symbolized death, the flood of Noah. The river Jordan would have been a symbolic representation of the flood waters. In antiquity, immersion was considered purification, the liberation from actual sin and original sin that is preceded by confession, an act of perfect contrition (Cf. Mk 1:4). Coming out of the water would be a re-birth, the heavens opened for Christ. For the militant of the Church it is a breach into communion with Christ’s Church (Cf. 1 Peter 2:9).Quote:
Originally Posted by cindy_lu_who
It’s a universal call to holiness and communion with his Church. St. Jerome said "Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they cannot possibly be vivified in Christ," St. Ambrose (II De Abraham. c. xi) speaking of the necessity of baptism, says:"
Baptism turns us into a new person, “an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.”CCC 1265
It’s not just an outward sign, rather a necessity for salvation. We know that the Apostles were sent out commanded, “teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost” Matt 28:19 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Mk 16:15-16
JoeT
John the Baptist was performing a Jewish ritual known as the Mikeveh which is described in Hebrews 9 as symbolic.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Heb 9:9-10:1
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV
The word translated as "various" washings" referring to the Jewish mikveh is the word "baptismos" in Greek, translated elsewhere as "baptism. And what is it symbolic of? Salvation through Christ.
I note that the prime focus of your arguments come from the teachings of your denomination.
In verses 1 through 8 we see the parable telling of the Jewish sacrificial offering in the sanctuary. The High Priest and only the High Priest can position the Loaves of Proposition (you might want to look it up.) In any event the, (I'm paraphrasing) this is the parable of that day: accordingly gifts and sacrifices offered cannot make the High Priest perfect. Sacrifices of the Old Covenant cannot make the High Priest pure, it doesn't matter how many times he washes. But, we know a pure High Priest, don't we?
We are to understand that “ Christ, being come an high Priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hand, that is, not of this creation” But, the antitype of this parable is in verse 24, “For Jesus is not entered into the Holies made with hands, the patterns of the true: but into Heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.” Christ doesn't even enter into the Tabernacle and he is pure enough to stand in the presence of God.
I've never seen these verses rendered as you did. Can you explain yourself?
JoeT
First of all, it is speaking of the historic Jewish ritual, not a parable. There is a great deal written about this and you could even go into the OT to read about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Did you notice that the mikveh (which by the way was NOT just for the high priest) was symbolic of the coming of Christ?Quote:
The High Priest and only the High Priest can position the Loaves of Proposition (you might want to look it up.) In any event the, (I’m paraphrasing) this is the parable of that day: accordingly gifts and sacrifices offered cannot make the High Priest perfect. Sacrifices of the Old Covenant cannot make the High Priest pure, it doesn’t matter how many times he washes. But, we know a pure High Priest, don’t we?
Do you realize that John did not create baptism but rather what he was doing was the mikveh which was symbolic of the coming sacrifice on the cross? Are you aware that baptism today came from what John was doing, with the difference being that now we perform the baptism, not looking forward to the coming sarifice, but looking back to the sacrifice?
Perhaps not if your exposure has been to the teachings of your denomination. Scripture is quite clear when read in context. You might also want to do some reading on the Jewish mikveh.Quote:
I've never seen these verses rendered as you did. Can you explain yourself?
sndbay,
Thanks much.
Here is that verse an I see nowhere in it that Jesus says that water is flesh.
To claim that He does say that is a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something that it does not say.
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Here it is again:
Fred,
Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.
Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:
John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV
Jesus speaks of two things:
1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit
Then he speaks of two things again:
1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.
The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.
Fred,
Answer me this:
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV
Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:
Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?
Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?
Tj3,
My answer is "Neither one"!
As Jesus clearly says, it takes both spirit and water.
Fred
Summing up.
One camp says that one must be baptized to BECOME saved.
The other camp says there is no point to being Baptized unless you ALREADY are saved.
If baptism is necessary before salvation, this implies that the finished work of Jesus is not complete and "God needs some helping out" because He is going to withhold his mercy, grace, and love until we "perform."
If Baptism is not necessary for salvation, this implies that people can receive God's love, grace and mercy without "perfoming" as did the thief on the cross, and Zaccheaus, and the household of Cornelius, and David, and Moses, and Abraham, and John the Baptist, and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Disagree, for we acknowledge Christ did fulfil all that was the Will of HIS Father. Christ saved us, and set us free from the curse of sin. We walk in righteousness because He was righteous. Once you leave the school master of the law, we walk with Christ. Faith and works are completed in our fulfillment to answer HIS calling. The gospel is profitable unto godliness. We are a temple in which Christ can dwells, being holy as He is HOLY.
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
There is one body and one spirit (joined) in one hope of our calling (salvation)
Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
All were under the law, as filthy rags in need of righteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
If we have not accepted Christ, and HIS righteousness as the way, then we walk as they walked.. under the school master of the law until Christ within the heart is found to be worthy, and each choose to follow. Then and only then.. leaving the school master of the law to walk in grace.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
I guess I just have trouble making myself clear. 3 times in this past week alone, (like the response above by sndbay) people have said they disagree with me and then say exactly what I thought I said or if I didn't take time to spell everything out, they simply elaborate on what I did say and I'm in agreement twith them. What's up with that?
It is the same thing eveytime.. Baptism is following Christ and HIS way.. Is that necessary? YES "if" you believe in HIM and walk in the SpiritQuote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, " if " so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now " if "any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And " if " Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Reading in context is absolutely necessary; and when you read the bible literally, as you do, then washing in one place means washing in another. In John 3:5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” We hold that this washing is Baptism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
"Holy Baptism holds the first place among the sacraments, because it is the door of the spiritual life; for by it we are made members of Christ and incorporated with the Church. And since through the first man death entered into all, unless we be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, we can not enter into the kingdom of Heaven, as Truth Himself has told us… The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all sin, original and actual; likewise of all punishment which is due for sin. As a consequence, no satisfaction for past sins is enjoined upon those who are baptized; and if they die before they commit any sin, they attain immediately to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God." (Council of Florence)
Bapto, or baptize is used in Acts 1:5, “but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost,” or as used in Luke 12:50 “And I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized. And how am I straitened until it be accomplished” . And of Hebrews 6:2 “Of the doctrine of baptisms and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.” The doctrine spoken of is not doctrine its just a nice thing to do when your back itches?
Baptism is a necessity for salvation.
JoeT
JoeT
Joe, don't try telling me what I do or don't do. In the past you have proven to be very poor at trying to take on that role. You'd do better to to try to defend your position - and I would suggest that you have your hands full on that alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I understand your denominational position. But then Jesus went on to explain that He was referring to the flesh by referring to water.Quote:
In John 3:5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” We hold that this washing is Baptism.
Why don't you answer the questionm that Fred does not want to seem to answer:Quote:
Baptism is a necessity for salvation.
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV
Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:
Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?
Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You cannot say "neither one". Scripture says that there is only one. And you often say that you will believe what scripture says.
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV
Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:
Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?
Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?
Now which one is it? Which baptism is it that is the "one baptism" that God tells us in Ephesians is necessary?
If you are saying that it is necessary to do everything that Jesus commanded to be saved, then we are without hope. Scripture says that we ALL failed at that (Rom 3:23). The good news is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the price for all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9), so that our salvation does not depend upon our works, or our faithfulness, but on His sacrifice on the cross and His faithfulness.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Good summary. I tried to add a greenie, but I need to spread around more first.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Read on for the body fails but the spirit within does not fail. And we NOW live by the law of faith. Believing in HIS way of righteousness, and walking with HIM as He dwells within us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
The law of God is the school master, and the law brings us to Christ. You are filthy rags under the law, but in the law of faith we walk in righteousness because we walk in the spirit. That can only be obtain by the one hope of salvation which is written in (Eph 4:23)
Eph 3:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes, yet in faith and in the newman of the spirit is rightoeusness which is acts of love, and true holiness.. Both joined as one in the one hope of salvation through one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
If you have left the school master of the law unto Christ you are no longer as filthy rags.. Faith has delivered you HIS salvation
Who can deny the ‘neccssity of baptism when scripturally described as “the doctrine of baptisms and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment”? Hebrews 6:2
In antiquity the Jew would have seen John’s baptism as a descending into the underworld in its relation to Noah’s flood. The immersion was seen as purification, a laving with water. It is the sacrament that incorporates us into Christ’s mystical body. The grace both actual and sanctifying redeems though the act of contrition liberating one from actual sin and original sin. (Cf. Mk 1:4). Coming out of the mystical body of water re-birthing through the blood purchase of Christ we find ourselves thrust into the light – as a child breaches the womb bursting into the light. (Cf. 1 Peter 2:9).
This sacrament alone is the entrance to the Church of Christ making us adoptive Sons of God. The sacrament is the remission of sins, “Be baptized …in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins;... " Acts 2:38. The sacrament confers faith through the graces of Christ.
JoeT
All this besides the point,
And I can be argued with, reddie'd or whatever. Many will probably not believe me.
But I believe my lord to be a kind and understanding lord, and if one is a christian in christ, and does not know he/she needs baptisim, it will be forgiven.
Our god looks at our hearts and our intent. Not JUST our actions. And he knows the diffrence between a sincear "i was mistaken and did not know' to 'i knew, but I didn't think it was important'
But again, I say. Even if you do not believe baptism is nessisary, if you are a christian, what is holding you from that last step? Will it HURT you to get baptised? Even if you don't think its nessisary
I hear what you are saying, and your final words are what tend to be saying there is a questionable heart verses a willing heart. But you are right, Christ will be the judge of each the heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniepepsi
Scripture says: my people will be destroyed by lack of knowledge.
Scripture says: establish the law of Faith
Scripture says: My sheep hear My Voice
Scripture says: man should not live by bread alone but by every word of God
Scripture says: Behold I sent my messenger which shall show the way
I believe in what I am reading in scripture
Agreed. Baptism is important as an act of obedience for all Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniepepsi
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