homesell,
Salvation comes by the grace of God, that is as a gift.
So you say that God chooses to whom he will give the gift.
The what did Jesus come to save the world?
According to you He cam to save just those chosen to be gifted.
I think not.
I think that God wants all of his human creatures to be followers of Jesus Christ and to be saved.
There are 4 billion souls on this planet who are not Christian, so why if only the chosen can be saved do so many work to convert those who are not Christian to being them into Christ's sheepfold?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

First, because we don't know who is chosen and who is not. Even the chosen don't know until they are.
Second, life without God is meaningless. Sheep without a shepherd, poised for a thief and a robber to come in and carry them off for slaughter.

homesell,
Very true.
But I do believe that Jesus came to save the world. That's all of us and it depends on what we do with this life as to what will happen to us when our bodies die.
Fred

Fred,
Jesus did come into the world to save the world, not condemn it, as Jesus himself said. But what Jesus has done is a finished work, God is the author and finisher of our faith. Jesus himself even said, "it is finished"
All our righteousness is but filthy rags to God. The righteousness of Christ has been put on us. All good works that we do(prepared for us before the foundation of the world) are done out of love and gratitude rather than fear of hell.

Fred,
The answer to your question is the quote above it.
"The jews asked him,'what shall we do? What are the works(plural) that God wants us to do?' Like other religions say also, do this and this and this and this and then maybe you'll be saved or get to heaven or paradise.
Jesus replies, "the work(singular) that God wants you to do is this: that you believe in the one that God has sent"
That's it. Too simple for many.
Religions and the evil heart of man tells him that there must be something else to do, something must be added so that I can "help God out" by "earning" his free gift, so I can point to myself and say, Lord, Lord, look what I did.
We want to think there is something attractive about us that God would choose us, or a reason that he would love us, or something about us or what we do that would make us closer to Him or make Him love us more than some others.
Like I'm not as bad a sinner as that guy over there so God found it easier to save me than that guy. How ridiculous!
None of us is worthy, it's all grace and mercy, there is nothing we can do to make God love us more than He does, there is nothing we can add to the finished work that Jesus did on the cross.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by homesell

Fred,
All our righteousness is but filthy rags to God. The righteousness of Christ has been put on us. All good works that we do(prepared for us before the foundation of the world) are done out of love and gratitude rather than fear of hell.

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I look at this differently then what you have shown. I understand that we were cursed by what Adam did by taking from the tree of knowledge rather then the Tree of Life. But NOW Christ has set us free from that curse. We are to be servants of righteosuness and walk in Christ as He will dwell in us. Each has the caling to follow and eat of the Tree of Life. It is free will that gives us that choice to follow the teaching of the gospel unto profitable in godliness. Be ye holy for I am HOLY...

To believe in Christ we must believe He was worthy as the begotten Son of God who fulfilled our righteousness. Giving us back the image of righteousness which we were created to be. If anyone does not believe in His worthiness then they partake of HIS bread and blood unworthy. We are baptized to be buried and dead to this world. It is the fulfillment of righteousness that was suffered and fulfilled by Christ.


Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Romans 5:17-18 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 17:15-16-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Jeff,
Yes I believe what Jesus said that we believe but the question is what OTHER works does God want us to do.
The way I read the bible I see the word work many times in relation to what God wants and asks, such as "love one another as I have loved you."
Jesus gave that as a commandment.
Fred.

Fred,
Exactly. What I am saying is If we believe, the Holy spirit, God and Jesus reside in us and we are saved. Since this is true(biblically) the "other works" are what we are to do AFTER we are saved. To do any of these works before we are saved is meaningless if they are done to somehow "earn" salvation.(and not to say that charitable acts aren't beneficial because they are - just not as a means to "add" to salvation or help get saved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by homesell

Fred,
Exactly. What I am saying is If we believe, the Holy spirit, God and Jesus reside in us and we are saved. Since this is true(biblically) the "other works" are what we are to do AFTER we are saved. To do any of these works before we are saved is meaningless if they are done to somehow "earn" salvation.(and not to say that charitable acts aren't beneficial because they are - just not as a means to "add" to salvation or help get saved.

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How does one get saved? We do not save ourselves, nor can anyone on earth save us..

What we do is REJOICE, because we are saved. We at birth shall be called holy, and by the grace of God we are saved..

There is no before in being saved or after, however there is a choice in whether to follow, whether we believe in the begotten Son of God and what was sent.

Some teach that we are filthy wags but that shows they are under the law which shows them what they are doing in sin. When you leave the law, and are no longer under the law, we have faith. (This may be what is posted or meant in before or after.. Before is law and after is Christ)

We are not under the law when we believe in Christ, when we believe in HIS worthyness to have saved us. REJOICE WE ARE SAVED...

homesell,
I never did say or infer that works alone can save a person.
But I also believe that faith alone can not save either.
It takes both faith then works to prove that faith for a faith without works is dead so says the book of James.
Luther once tried to leave that book out of the bible because it said that.
Why are so many still trying to ingnore that paassage?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
We agree and disagree. You are right "It takes both faith then works."
Faith is first, and the works follow because we are already saved. If works do not follow, then there has been no faith, no life changing, born of the spirit from above, regenerated by God experience.
Certainly works alone can never save a person. How many good works can make up for a single sin?
Works that flow from the Spirt within are proof of the Faith. That's why James says,. faith by itself, if not accompanied by action is dead." and "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." No one that claims a faith in Christ, but does no works, has any faith at all because the works are done because of faith.
Where we disagree is that I'm saying the works have NO PART of salvation.
The works are only evidence that we are already saved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by homesell

Fred,
We agree and disagree. You are right "It takes both faith then works."
Faith is first, and the works follow because we are already saved. If works do not follow, then there has been no faith, no life changing, born of the spirit from above, regenerated by God experience.
Certainly works alone can never save a person. How many good works can make up for a single sin?
Works that flow from the Spirt within are proof of the Faith. That's why James says, ... faith by itself, if not accompanied by action is dead." and "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." No one that claims a faith in Christ, but does no works, has any faith at all because the works are done because of faith.

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Agree YES!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by homesell

Where we disagree is that I'm saying the works have NO PART of salvation.
The works are only evidence that we are already saved.

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There is one body and one spirit (joined) in one hope of our calling to--->(salvation) = Christ = ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

All is the righteousness of Christ, and the image we were created to be... Baptism is the righteous act suffered by Christ for us to follow.

Like TJ3 points out in another thread, the one baptism in Ephesians is the baptism of the spirit. That is what Jesus said He would Baptize us with. Since the Baptism of the spirit is Christ coming to live in us,(salvation) do you think the "one baptism" of the spirit is where Christ actually comes to reside in us or do you think we are saved because of the "one baptism" of the symbolic water?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by homesell

Like TJ3 points out in another thread, the one baptism in Ephesians is the baptism of the spirit. That is what Jesus said He would Baptize us with. Since the Baptism of the spirit is Christ coming to live in us,(salvation) do you think the "one baptism" of the spirit is where Christ actually comes to reside in us or do you think we are saved because of the "one baptism" of the symbolic water?

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We are SAVED by the law of Faith... The calling to salvation is one hope, in one Lord one Faith one Baptism

From the womb /flesh/water of nourishment we shall be called holy(innocent).. being reborn in the spirit at older age by confession/answering the call to salvation.. Should be done by law of Faith of Baptism confessing belief in Christ Jesus.

Christ dwells within: Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in HIS hand, and HE will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 PETER 1: 22 "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, (23)
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word
of God witch lives and abides forever, (24) Because "All flesh is as grass, And all
The glory of man as the flowers of grass. The grass withers, And its flowers fall away,
(25)But the word of the Lord endures forever".
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

Jeff,
We are close to agreement at times.
But I still firmly believe that baptism is by spirit and water. Jesus insisted on being baptized with water and God the Father was pleased with that.
You ondicate that water is symbolic.
Well if so it is a very powerful symbol that is necessary in baptism that is necessary for salvation.
Fred

Matthew 3:13 John the Baptist says that he himself needed to be baptized. Why? The spirit of God was in John ever since he was in the womb? Jesus replies that he (Jesus)is being baptized not because it is required, but because it is proper.
John 1:33... the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with (NOT WATER)the HOLY SPIRIT.
Fred my friend, the baptism of the spirit (invisible)is what is required for salvation. The baptism by water(visible) is "proper" to show that one has already been Baptized by the Spirit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Jeff,
But I still firmly believe that baptism is by spirit and water. Jesus insisted on being baptized with water and God the Father was pleased with that.
Fred

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Fred I agree water and spirit..

Scripture tells us that baptism was fulfilled by both water and spirit. John's water baptism with Christ did fulfilled the act of all righteousness.

(Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. )

sndbay,
Right you are.
Fred

I never said that a person that has already received the baptism of the spirit should not be baptized with water. They should. It physically symbolizes what has already taken place spiritually.

homesell,
I do not believe that it is symbolic.
I believe that correctly done baptism must be done with "Water and the Spirit" in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
If done any other way it is not valid.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
Because the Father doesn't know the heart of the individual? If it is not done exactly the way some denomination teaches then it doesn't count and the person is doomed?
Those were rhetorical questions.
I have known many people that have gone through water Baptism and then later turned their backs on God.
I have never met a single person that was Baptized with the Spirit of God and then later turned their backs on Him. Because they were saved and after they were saved, they proceeded to be baptized with water as commanded.

homesell,
Yes I do believe that a person once saved can lose it.
But baptism by water and the spirit is but one step on the journey to salvation.
A living faith that perseveres to the end is the final saving grace step.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I guess we understand love differently. The God of the Bible is NOT a conditional love God where he says, "Of course I love you, IF, you get circumsized, you get baptized in water, you speak in tongues, you become a missionary, you build me a church, you give 10%, you read my word daily, you pray to me every night(or morning) you do the sacramenmts, you go to sunday school, and on and on with conditions. (since I am an expert on cults, I can REALLY give you a weird list of "must do's" to "earn God's love.) (One group says for example that you are doomed if you don't pronounce the name of Jesus exactly like they think you should.)
Salvation is like a marriage since we are the bride of Christ according to scripture. Once I married my bride that I chose, she took on my name(Smith) as we take Christs(christians) She doesn't have to do anything to get my love. She has it. I will never leave her or forsake her(as Jesus promised to do with us) and even if she was to be a quadriplegic from sickness or accident(in sickness or in health) I have pledged to love her. She doesn't always do things the way I want or act the way I want but I don't love her any less and it certainly doesn't jeopardize our marriage. I will never divorce her as God will never divorce us.
My point is, when the Holy Spirit enters us, we are married to God. As Jesus says in John 17:20-23 "20 ¶ "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
The Holy Spirit enters us and we are one. A husband enters a wife and they are one, according to scripture. Like Paul says, "nothing can separate us from the Love of God." God looks on our heart. If the heart is not the heart He gave us to replace our heart of stone, nothing we can do will "earn" His love or salvation. If he HAS replaced our heart of stone with a new heart which He says He will place in us, nothing we do will earn His Love or salvation because this love and salvation are not conditional.

homesell,
From what I understand of Holy Scripture, no one earns God's love. It would be impossible for sinners to do that.
God's love is unconditional for every human creature.
That is what I learned way back in Protestant Sunday School and ir was strongly reinforced in my mind and heart when I became a Catholic over 35 years ago.
No cults were ever involved in my life.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You're right Fred, Gods love is unconditional and we don't earn it, according to scripture. What we learn in protestant Sunday school or catholicism is only beneficial if it lines up with the word of God. It's up to us to be like the Bereans that went home and read the scriptures and put that as the test against what Paul had said. Very well meaning and sincere people can tell you a lie just because they believe it. They were taught it and never compared it to what the word of God says. I'm not saying this happened to you, I am saying test whateveryone says(including me) against what the scripture says because no man on earth has a corner on the truth.
I wouldn't hold it against you if you had been in a cult, Fred, I was. That's what got me started in refuting false doctrine by the word of God.

Thanks Jeff,
Testing what Scripture says against what is said and taught what lead me to leave the fundamentalist beliefs I once had and insisted on.
I still do that.
But there is an ongoing problem and that is Holy Scripture can be used to prove almost anything and some people are very adept at doing so.
That is what I try to use the entire bible in my studies rather than accept just pick and chose passages.
The other problem is that I believe what Scripture clearly says to me but says something else to others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred