Quote:

---

Originally Posted by classyT

The Apostle Paul wrote it.... but ultimately it is God's thoughts and words.

But why with fear and trembling? I guess my point is that some people teach we can lose our salvation. I personally don't think so and I believe the word is pretty clear on the security of our salvation.

---

Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him. When the word "for" is used in a context like this passage, it tells us that Paul is giving his rationale or conclusion immediately afterward, and in this case he says that salvation is the result of God working in us.

Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
NKJV

This is consistent with Paul's use if the phrase in telling bondservants how to serve their human master:

Eph 6:5-9
5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. 9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
NKJV

Since we are to be bondservants to Christ, we should also, in fact even more so view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an effect on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God

---

Yes, like I said...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes, like I said....

---

Like you said... what? Please complete your thought. You were talking about fear of a pastor leaving the church. I was talking about their attitude towards God.

"Work out your own salvation" does not mean work for salvation. It means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.

"Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Like you said.... what? Please complete your thought. You were talking about fear of a pastor leaving the church. I was talking about their attitude towards God.

---

pastor = Paul
church = Philippi

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

"Work out your own salvation" does not mean work for salvation. It means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.

"Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e., grow in grace.

---

Okay. But this is not the same as what you said before about Paul leaving the church. Do you see some relationship between the two things? If so, please explain, because you lost me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Okay. But this is not the same as what you said before about Paul leaving the church. Do you see some relationship between the two things? If so, please explain, because you lost me.

---

Hmmmmmmm...

Paul was leaving the church at Philippi. They were going to be on their own. Thus, he wrote to them to encourage them.

"Work out your own salvation" = God will give you the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for you and will equip you with the skills and tools to accomplish His will. The church members will do this with "fear and trembling," with a deep respect for God as well as concern for the uncertainties that they will experience in life as they mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

Wondergirl,

Naahh, I don't think I would be fearful if my Pastor left.. . sad, disappointed but not fearful and trembling.

Tj3,
I totally agree with you ( shocking isn't it? ;) ) I believe the fear Paul is referring to is more about reverence, respect, AWE. But I knew a woman that was teaching a class at a local church and she kept throwing that verse up as if it meant we could lose our salvation. I never confronted her but all I could think of was WOW, I bet Noah was so glad he was put INTO the ARK and not left to hang onto it. I was place IN Christ, Noah was placed IN the ark and last time I read my bible no one could open the door until it was time.. not even NOAH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Hmmmmmmm.............

Paul was leaving the church at Philippi. They were going to be on their own. Thus, he wrote to them to encourage them.

"Work out your own salvation" = God will give you the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for you and will equip you with the skills and tools to accomplish His will. The church members will do this with "fear and trembling," with a deep respect for God as well as concern for the uncertainties that they will experience in life as they mature spiritually, i.e., grow in grace.

---

I personally think that connecting those two things is a stretch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by classyT

Wondergirl,
Naahh, I don't think I would be fearful if my Pastor left.. . sad, disappointed but not fearful and trembling.

---

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.

Quote:

---

Tj3,
I totally agree with you ( shocking isn't it? ;) ) I believe the fear Paul is referring to is more about reverence, respect, AWE. But I knew a woman that was teaching a class at a local church and she kept throwing that verse up as if it meant we could lose our salvation. I never confronted her but all I could think of was WOW, I bet Noah was so glad he was put INTO the ARK and not left to hang onto it. I was place IN Christ, Noah was placed IN the ark and last time I read my bible no one could open the door until it was time.. not even NOAH.

---

We may agree on this, but I am not sure if you will agree with what I am about to say. I agree that we cannot lose our salvation (i.e. inadvertently become unsaved), but scripture is clear that we can choose to intentionally turn away from our salvation, for example:

Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galveston

Jesus was telling Jewish people that The Father and The Son are not the same person, and that it is the Father that gives faith to hearers that they CAN accept the Son.

Companion verses are those saying that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father, thus showing the perfect harmony between Father and Son. You can't have one without the other!

---

Gal,

I don't completely disagree that he was trying to show the Jewish people who he was. But I don't know... I think he was saying MORE than that. He says it several times in the same chapter... jut my thoughts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.

---

You obviously do not understand the meanings of "fear" and "trembling" in this context, nor did I ever say that Paul "encouraged" that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You obviously do not understand the meanings of "fear" and "trembling" in this context.

---

WG,

If you wish to put forward additional points and validation as to why you believe your interpretation is the right one, you are welcome to do so, and I would certainly consider such input. But to shut down the discussion by simply proclaiming that anyone who disagrees with you does not understand the meaning of the phrase is not compelling. It leaves us with nowhere to go in this discussion because you have simply proclaimed your position to be right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

WG,

If you wish to put forward additional points and validation as to why you believe your interpretation is the right one, you are welcome to do so, and I would certainly consider such input. But to shutdown the discussion by simply proclaiming that anyone who disagrees with you does not understand the meaning of the phrase is not compelling.

---

Tom, you and I actually agree regarding these verses. I do not understand why you cannot acknowledge that fact.

WG: "Work out your own salvation"... means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.
TOM: Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him.


WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.
TOM: Since we are to be bondservants to Christ, we should also, in fact even more so view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Tom, you and I actually agree regarding these verses. I do not understand why you cannot acknowledge that fact.

---

I would love it if that were the case, but I don't think that it is. You have already told me that I am wrong because I don' agree with your understanding, so how could we be in agreement?

After you explained how you were connecting the two thoughts, I went back and read the book, starting at 1:1 to see how it would read as a letter, and to see if that might gift in the context if I heard it read out as a letter, in order to give your argument a fair hearing. After having done so, I had to go back and read it again to see if I could find a way to link things the way that you have, and that is when I came back and said that I see it as a stretch. If it were all part of a connected thought, it should not be so hard to find a way to link them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WG

You obviously do not understand the meanings of "fear" and "trembling" in this context, nor did I ever say that Paul "encouraged" that.

---

I should have said, "For some reason, you are accusing me of not understanding the meanings of those words, yet we agree on what those verses mean."

See Post #55.

Tom, I feel WG is talking about the sense of weakness that can come of the unknown, this weakness can produces the fear and results in trembling. We are to go forward and work that out in faith of God's presence.


1 Cr 2:2-3 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

Tom, I feel WG is talking about the sense of weakness that can come of the unknown, this weakness can produces the fear and results in trembling. We are to go forward and work that out in faith of God's presence.

---

You are correct. WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

WG: "Work out your own salvation"... means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.
TOM: Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him.

---

Okay.

Quote:

---

WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

---

Okay up to the word "concern". Though we do have concern for uncertainties, if we are in the place that god would have us to be, we would have no concern for the uncertainties of life, because we would completely rest in Him, knowing that He has it all under control.

Luke 12:27-30
28 If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith? 29 And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind. 30 For all these things the nations of the world seek after, and your Father knows that you need these things.
NKJV

The context of "fear and trembling" as it relates to the bondservant to his master refers to the attitude and respect that he has for the master.

Eph 6:5-6
5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ;
NKJV

I agree that in this context it means more.
God wants us to realize that he is serious and worthy and in all our righteousness and trying to work things out to conclusions that if we do not do so in a way pleasing to him then our fear and trambling awe is often not much more than our human reasoning. God wants something deeper. David repented from the heart and all his efforts of trying to achieve spirituality from logic would have been vain on his own part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Okay up to the word "concern". Though we do have concern for uncertainties, if we are in the place that god would have us to be, we would have no concern for the uncertainties of life, because we would completely rest in Him, knowing that He has it all under control.

---

But how many of us reach that state of no concern, that we rest totally in God's love and care? We as humans living in this world will always have a certain amount of concern, sometimes less, but sometimes more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But how many of us reach that state of no concern, that we rest totally in God's love and care? We as humans living in this world will always have a certain amount of concern, sometimes less, but sometimes more.

---

Agreed that we will have concern, but that is not what God wants of us, and indeed not what Paul under inspiration of God would want of the church in Philippi. Therefore I would not expect that Paul would be telling them that that is how they should be responding.

Also, as has been pointed out by myself and others, a pastor leaving would not be expected to cause a sense of fear and trembling. Paul's ministry was to build up the church, and build up leaders. The church at Philippi by this point was around for a decade or more, and thus would have some other leaders in place. Paul's absence would therefore not be a disaster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I agree that in this context it means more.
God wants us to realize that he is serious and worthy and in all our righteousness and trying to work things out to conclusions that if we do not do so in a way pleasing to him then our fear and trambling awe is often not much more than our human reasoning. God wants something deeper. David repented from the heart and all his efforts of trying to achieve spirituality from logic would have been vain on his own part.

---

Yes the desire to serve God and do HIS will is the important step in fear. Holding the wisdom and knowledge that allows us to be one in Christ. Be holy as He is holy.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Agreed that we will have concern, but that is not what God wants of us, and indeed Paul under inspiration of God would want of the church in Philippi. Therefore I would not expect that Paul would be telling them that that is how they should be responding.

Also, as has been pointed out by myself and others, a pastor leaving would not be expected to cause a sense of fear and trembling. Paul's ministry was to build up the church, and build up leaders. The church at Philippi by this point was around for a decade or more, and thus would have some other leaders in place. Paul's absence would therefore not be a disaster.

---

"Fear and trembling" is not shaking-in-their-boots scaredness with accompanying wailing and gnashing of teeth. As I said, "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

The "concern" I am talking about is not head-pounding worry and sleepless nights, but is honest evaluation of a situation to which the tools God has given us will be applied so that we can grow in grace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

"Fear and trembling" is not shaking-in-their-boots scaredness with accompanying wailing and gnashing of teeth.

---

Actually, it is. The words in Greek are:

Fear - phobos - means "alarm or fright"
Trembling - tromos - means "trembling" or "quaking with fear"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Actually, it is. The words in Greek are:

Fear - phobos - means "alarm or fright"
Trembling - tromos - means "trembling" or "quaking with fear"

---

And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: ""fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

---

Look at the description of Jesus in His glory in Revelation chapter 1:

Rev 1:12-17
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
NKJV

And look at John's reaction to this vision:

Rev 1:17-19
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

Notice that though John was with Him as a man for years, he was so in fear at the sight of Him in His glory that he was as a dead man. We need to be always aware of who it is that we are dealing with. Yes, Jesus can be as a brother to us, but never forget that He is also the one true Almighty. Omnipotent God of the universe who created heaven and earth.

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Look at the description of Jesus in His glory in Revelation chapter 1:

Rev 1:12-17
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
NKJV

And look at John's reaction to this vision:

Rev 1:17-19
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

Notice that though John was with Him as a man for years, he was so in fear at the sight of Him in His glory that he was as a dead man. We need to be always aware of who it is that we are dealing with. Yes, Jesus can be as a brother to us, but never forget that He is also the one true Almighty. Omnipotent God of the universe who created heaven and earth.

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

---

What?? Huh?? Please answer my question, especially the underlined part --

Quote:

---

And how does that equate with what you said earlier: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty" and how is that different from what I said: ""fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God."

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What??? Huh??? Please answer my question, especially the underlined part --

---

Post #68.

Let me be the first to say that Tj3 and WG agree, and have used almost the same words in their agreement:

Tj3: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty"
WG: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Let me be the first to say that Tj3 and WG agree, and have used almost the exact same words in their agreement:

Tj3: "we should also, in fact even moreso view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty"
WG: "fear and trembling" means we have a deep respect (awe) for our God"

---

We agree if you completely ignore the areas where we disagree, which was what "fear and trembling" means in the context of this specific passage.

I note that although I provided a detailed answer of your question, you did not answer mine:

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

We agree if you completely ignore the areas where we disagree, which was what "fear and trembling" means in the context of this specific passage.

I note that although I provided a detailed answer of your question, you did not answer mine:

How do you reconcile what fear and trembling mean with your interpretation?

---

WE AGREE --

WG: "Work out your own salvation"... means to take what God has given us to its logical conclusion, to meet responsibilities and to carry them out. God's grace does not end once we are justified. He gives us the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us and equips us with the skills and tools to accomplish His will.
TOM: Looking at it in context, I think that it is simply an attempt on Paul's part to make them more aware that their salvation comes from God, and they shold always be in awe of Him and have appropriate reverence for Him.


WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.
TOM: Since we are to be bondservants to Christ, we should also, in fact even more so view Him with fear and trembling when we reflect upon who He is, and His awe and majesty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

WE AGREE --

---

No, we don't.

Quote:

---

WG: "Fear and trembling" means we will have a deep respect for our God as well as concern for the uncertainties that we will experience as we live life and mature spiritually, i.e. grow in grace.

---

This is a quote from your post #54, and I responded in post #55.

No, I do not agree with this statement. Do you want to go around in circles and repeat everything that we just said again, or will you deal with the question that I asked and move forward?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tj3

Agreed. I think to suggest that this would leave them in fear and trembling or that paul would encourage them to be is hard to imagine.



We may agree on this, but I am not sure if you will agree with what I am about to say. I agree that we cannot lose our salvation (i.e. inadvertently become unsaved), but scripture is clear that we can choose to intentionally turn away from our salvation, for example:

Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

---

oooh Tj3,

We DO disagree. I believe these Jewish people Paul is writing to were NEVER saved. They tasted... I taste things when I am cooking for my family but if that is all I did take a taste or two, it wouldn't give me nutritional value in other words.. couldn't LIVE on it. The Lord I believe expects us to guzzle the gospel of grace.. they were tasting it to see if they liked it. See if it suited them but they didn't want to give up the Law, the sacrifices. They were partakers of the Holy Spirit... they were NOT indwelt. Indeed the Holy Spirit did enlighten them but they were giving up the truth for the law.

In scripture we are given a few examples of what I think Paul was addressing. Judas is one, Saul was another. Both professed, both were enlightened, both rejected they didn't really believe.

Our churches are FULL of them IF you are saved and I mean REALLY saved, you cannot lose your salvation I think the scriptures are pretty clear as long as we keep them in context, understand who is writing, who it is written to... why it is written. These are my thoughts... I could be wrong but I don't think I am. Not everyone that owns the name of Christ KNOWS him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by classyT

you cannot lose your salvation

---

You always have free will in this life and can always change your mind to say "No thanks, God."

WG,

So then the Holy Spirit who indwells us just pops out. My Bible says I have been SEALED with him. IF I have to keep my salvation, in fact if I have anything at all to do with it other than accept it as a free gift.. I will screw it up. I can't keep my salvation. Salvation is of the LORD not Tess. It scares me to death to think that I could do something to mess it up.. trust me I would.. I KNOW me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by classyT

WG,

so then the Holy Spirit who indwells us just pops out. My Bible says I have been SEALED with him. IF i have to keep my salvation, in fact if I have anything at all to do with it other than accept it as a free gift..i will screw it up. I can't keep my salvation. Salvation is of the LORD not Tess. It scares me to death to think that I could do something to mess it up..trust me I would..i KNOW me.

---

Like I said, we can always say no. Are you planning to?

I don't think someone who is saved CAN say no. I think I can sin, I think I can act pretty ugly, I think I can even make people that know me question my salvation... but I can't say no I don't believe in the finished work of Jesus.

Paul was addressing Jews who were steeped in the law, heard the truth and tasted it a bit, considered it, liked it, saw the power but decided... naah I'm going back to the law and all that it entailed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by classyT

I don't think someone who is saved CAN say no. I think i can sin, I think I can act pretty ugly, i think I can even make people that know me question my salvation....but I can't say no I don't believe in the finished work of Jesus.

---

Of course someone can! I know several who have gone from being Paul-types to being Saul-types.