Ask Me Help Desk - Was she ever a Christian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
You have it your way and I'll have it mine, Thank you.
Fred.

I'll have it God's way.

Tj3,
So will I.
God IS the Judge. It is He who decides who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory or Hell.
That is why I do not trust your judgment.
Fred

Guys,

My problem with the idea the Lord will take anyone to heaven other than those that profess his name is simply this... That is how he INSTITUTED it. He suffered and died for us. These are HIS rules and HIS plan of salvation. If he places His word above his name... he isn't going to go back on it. His word is above his name... I mean it doesn't get more IMPORTANT than that. WOW.

Alty,

I judge no one. I only go by what the word says. I believe that if someone has heard the gospel and the way to receive Christ and rejects it and decides they have there OWN way to heaven... that they cannot be saved. I don't believe this because I think I am better ( because I KNOW I am not) I don't believe this because I am not tolerant of other beliefs... I only believe this because that is what the Bible teaches. I have no other authority.

Fred,
The Bible incidentally does not teach that the Lord will accept anyone other than those names that are written in the Lambs book of life. If you don't know the lamb, or reject the lamb how in THE WORLD is your name going to be there? The Bible does teach that the Lord does NOT go against HIS word. He can't say one thing and then do another. He can't. Am I wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
So will I.
God IS the Judge. It is He who decides who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory or Hell.
That is why I do not trust your judgment.
Fred

Fred, you have this sooo wrong.
God gave us free will to make choices. He did NOT make us a bunch of mind numbed robots in lock step with HIM. Because we have free choice if we choose to reject Him, then we make the decision and our name is not written in the book of life. What is so hard about that to understand? Heck, even Adam and Eve had a choice. They choose to accept what the serpent was telling them and rejected God's words about not eating of the fruit of the tree of life.

Don,

I will eat my hat if fred concedes to you... lol course I'd eat anything right now... I'm on Jenny craig and I'm STARVING.. ok I'm off thread. See what lack of food does to me?

LOL:D I have a couple of straw hats for you LOL

Classy T

I think from your own statements that your are facing a person (never mind her sex) that is in front of a great confusion. She unquestionably needs all the help and advise you can provide her with, although this may represent -most certainly it will- a great effort on your side.

However, our mission as Christians is also to exert as apostles before those who somehow are not yet following the right path. Furthermore, we are to do it out of our sincere desire to love our neighbor, as the 11th Commandment instruct us to do.

Gromm,

I agree. Unfortunately she gets UPSET and freaks if someone disagrees with her. She actually told my son that he had been indoctrinated when he disagreed and discussed the matter with her. I would imagine at this point, prayer is what is needed. Thanks for your thoughts.

classyT,
If she gets unset when someone disagrees with here then it becomes necessary, if disagreement is needed, to do it gently, not quickly or sharply.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Gromm,

i agree. Unfortunately she gets UPSET and freaks if someone disagrees with her. She actually told my son that he had been indoctrinated when he disagreed and discussed the matter with her. I would imagine at this point, prayer is what is needed. Thanks for your thoughts.

I would agree with Arcura's advice. A lot of patience, tolerance and generosity are needed in such difficult cases.

It is even more difficult to convert and atheist and there are some examples that this can be done too.:):)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
If she gets unset when someone disagrees with here then it becomes necessary, if disagreement is needed, to do it gently, not quickly or sharply.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Me? Quick and sharp? LOL LOL... naah not me. I'm as gentle as a dove. Hee hee

Actually I avoid the subject. I am passionate about this and it shows. But... When it comes up I actually have to pray for help. I don't feel this way with other people but she KNOWS and professed the truth at one time.. so she irks my FLESH more. But alas.. I know it is wrong. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Adam,

you are right! I find this very sad indeed and yet wasn't it the Lord himself who said in that day people will stand before him saying Lord, Lord haven't i done this and that in your name but he replies...I NEVER knew you. Just because someone proclaims to KNOW him...doesn't make it so. It saddens me and frightens me..but again doesn't the Bible teach not to lay hands suddenly on any man? I guess there is a reason for that. Thanks for your insite.

I would add to this that we are not saved by our good deeds, but by HIS grace. Who would had thought that a thief would be saved at cross just before death? Who would had thought that Saul would become Paul? I would say that we all should pray for her to come back to light and be near Lord Jesus. Prayer is one thing we can do and leave the rest in HIS hands. Recently, I watched Jim Cymbala's sermon "My House Shall Be Called A House Of Prayer" online. This sermon reinforced my faith in the power of prayer.

Triund,
Yes prayer can be powerful and should be used.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Ok, I already know that we can not truly understand someone elses heart and whether someone is saved or not. Having said that would YOU ( i'm speaking to Christians) own a person like this as a sister in the Lord?.....

I know a woman who was involved for YEARS with the REORGAINIZED church of latter day saints..they have different beliefs from LDS. Anyway her mother who was a Christian prayed for her for and eventually she left that denomination and proclaimed Christ as her personal savior. Her husband was NOT saved and a lot of her family still stayed with that church. She began to grow in her walk with Christ as far as I could tell and was interested in learning so she attended a bible church. Within the last few years I noticed her saying odd things that were not biblical. She now seems to have embraced Universalism. She has decided that it isn't NOT necessary to understand and believe the gospel now because all will be saved in the end. This is NOT biblical....one verse she has used over and over is the one that states Every knee will bow and every knee will confess. I have explained to her that it doesn't EVER say that every knee WILL WANT TO BOW...they will HAVE to. So, my question is...would you own her as a sister in the Lord a little confused.... Or a confused woman in need of real salvation. i don't know what to think?

Good question. I agree with those who have said we should not judge her harshly. It is God who is our judge.

Also, I think this parable is pertinent to the question:

Matthew 21
28 But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and coming to the first, he said: Son, go work today in my vineyard. 29 And he answering, said: I will not. But afterwards, being moved with repentance, he went. 30 And coming to the other, he said in like manner. And he answering, said: I go, Sir; and he went not.

31 Which of the two did the father's will? They say to him: The first. Jesus saith to them: Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.

As I apply it to this question then, all people are children of God.

Those of us who are Christian have said yes to God. Some of us have followed our yes with our works and have therefore done the will of God and can hope for an eternal reward.

Some of us Christians have said yes to God but have not followed that yes with our works and have therefore nullified that verbal contract with our actions. God will judge.

Some people, and I think this woman falls in this category, have, in good faith said yes to God but have not understood what is required to keep that covenant. If in their actions they ratify their yes to God, then they will be like the son who said no to the Father yet did the Father's will.

If with their actions they nullify that contract, then may God have mercy on them.

Does this apply to the question?

Sincerely,

De Maria

grant09,
Everyone is going to be saved??
I think not according to what Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triund

I would add to this that we are not saved by our good deeds, but by HIS grace. Who would had thought that a thief would be saved at cross just before death? Who would had thought that Saul would become Paul? I would say that we all should pray for her to come back to light and be near Lord Jesus. Prayer is one thing we can do and leave the rest in HIS hands. Recently, I watched Jim Cymbala's sermon "My House Shall Be Called A House Of Prayer" online. This sermon reinforced my faith in the power of prayer.

I can but totally agree with your remarks. The power of prayer is enormous, as it is the power of Faith. The problem is, in my opinion, that more often than not our prayers are not prayed with enough fath;);)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Really?

Rev 20:15
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
NKJV

Perfect come back verse. I would LOVE to know what the Universalist do with that verse? AND... what verses they use to defend their position. I can't think of ONE!

classyT
Neither can I.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by classyT

Perfect come back verse. I would LOVE to know what the Universalist do with that verse? AND...what verses they use to defend their position. I can't think of ONE!

That and a number of other passages. I had a series of debates with a very knowledgeable universalist a few years back, and these debates continued over a period of weeks. At the end of the debates, he conceded that there is nothing in scripture that supports universalism. But he did not change his theology.

Tj3,
"He did not change his theology"
So it goes with a lot of people.
But some do change after a time.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
"He did not change his theology"
So it goes with a lot of people.
But some do change after a time.
Fred

Yes, typically those who have a love of truth are the ones who will eventually change.

Tj3,
True, and those who love truth and have it adhere to it strongly.
Fred

I'm not a Christian but I decided to give you my opinion OK? Nothing is for sure after now. Now is all we've got to work with. All that worrying about being saved or not or if someone else is saved or not is a waste of time and a distraction from the here and now. It takes away quality of life. Spiritual journeys are very personal and though it would be appropriate for you to share your experience with her, it would not be appropriate for you to impose your religious beliefs on her. She is here now anyway, yours to accept as a sister or reject. The choice is yours.

Sunflowers,
I agree with SOME of what you said but I believe that there is much more to be sure of than just there here and now.
In fact to me God is here and now as well as in the past and the future.
I also believe in the past and the tomorrows still to come.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

That and a number of other passages. I had a series of debates with a very knowledgable universalist a few years back, and these debates continued over a period of weeks. At the end of the debates, he conceded that there is nothing in scripture that supports universalism. But he did not change his theology.

Many Christians believe that just because they take every word in the bible as absolute truth, that everyone else does. Scripture is not the end all and be all of everyone's faith. You can pound scripture in their ear all day, but you are doing it in vain. Try to remember this when you use it as your sole argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozyk

Many Christians believe that just because they take every word in the bible as absolute truth, that everyone else does. Scripture is not the end all and be all of everyone's faith. You can pound scripture in their ear all day, but you are doing it in vain. Try to remember this when you use it as your sole argument.

Scripture is the standard of truth for Christians, just as we see in scripture that Jesus Himself used scriopture to validate doctrine when debates over it occurred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozyk

Many Christians believe that just because they take every word in the bible as absolute truth, that everyone else does. Scripture is not the end all and be all of everyone's faith. You can pound scripture in their ear all day, but you are doing it in vain. Try to remember this when you use it as your sole argument.

You either need to believe that the Bible is the Inspired and true word of God or not. If not, then you are not following Christs teachings. If you do believe the Bible there is no half way. What is so hard for people to understand about that.
Oh and thanks for the undeserved reddie.
Right back at you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

You either need to believe that the Bible is the Inspired and true word of God or not. If not, then you are not following Christs teachings. If you do believe the Bible there is no half way. What is so hard for people to understand about that.
Oh and thanks for the undeserved reddie.
Right back at ya!

Sorry, I have to disagree again. I believe in God , I honor Him, and I try to live my life in a way that would make him proud. However, I do not take the bible as an all or nothing handbook. There is WAY TOO MUCH room for error in a book written by mere mortals, passed down through thousands of years, through many languages, and through many translations. That is just ridiculous to a mind that operates on common sense.

Okay, we hear that the bible was written by man, "inspired by God". Did God quit "inspiring" after a certain time? Did he say, " I believe we have about covered everything so let's wrap this up". Why has there been no more inspiring and writing going on in the last couple of thousand years?

Following this innate powerful compass in me called God, points me in the right direction and instructs me to do the right thing. I believe that Jesus's life is an example of how it is supposed to be done. I don't believe God would ever turn his back on his child that lives their life in a God like way. You can do this without even having ever picked up a bible. In fact without even ever having heard of a bible. It's a heart connection. Not a "learned connection" from having read it in a book or having been scared into it.

Why was my reddie undeserved? I disagreed with what you had to say. What am I missing? The "back at cha" sarcasm was not exactly something Jesus would say is it?
Christians that know and believe the bible up one side and down the other , yet still resort to snide remarks just prove my point. Knowing and believing the bible don't mean a thing if you don't live it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozyk

S
Why was my reddie undeserved? I disagreed with what you had to say.

Basically because you do/did not follow the reputation guidelines as outlined here:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum-...nes-24951.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by starbright200

Anytime a preacher shouts about hell & the wrath of God he portrays a God who is like a bully military drill sergeant. I went to church expecting to find comfort.

If you saw a friend driving towards a brick wall unaware, would you scream and holler about what was about to happen, or comfort them on their way to their death?

Which approach would be truly loving and that of a true friend?

450donn,
I believe that the bible IS the word of God, but it is not all of it.
Much of what Jesus taught is not in the bible, but some of it is in other documents written by Apostles which we a lucky enough to still have.
Read the documents of the early Church father for that information
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn,
I believe that the bible IS the word of God, but it is not all of it.
Much of what Jesus taught is not in the bible, but some of it is in other documents written by Apostles which we a lucky enough to still have.

Be specific - what documents did the Apostles write that are scriptural but outside of the Bible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn,
I believe that the bible IS the word of God, but it is not all of it.
Much of what Jesus taught is not in the bible, but some of it is in other documents written by Apostles which we a lucky enough to still have.
Read the documents of the early Church father for that information
Fred

Proverbs 30:6 says
"Do not add to His words, or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."

So, please for once in your life answer the question, How can you or your brand of religion justify adding to or taking away from the Bible given proverbs 30:6?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn,
I believe that the bible IS the word of God, but it is not all of it.
Much of what Jesus taught is not in the bible, but some of it is in other documents written by Apostles which we a lucky enough to still have.
Read the documents of the early Church father for that information
Fred

Everything that the Lord wanted to be revealed to us IS in the word of God. Ain't no if's or buts about it. But I still like you Fred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

Proverbs 30:6 says
"Do not add to His words, or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."

So, please for once in your life answer the question, How can you or your brand of religion justify adding to or taking away from the Bible given proverbs 30:6?

Do you mean by, say, removing books from the canon of the Septuagint, which was the canon used by Jesus and the Apostles and quoted in the NT? Fred's "brand of religion" hasn't done that. Yours has.

Or do you mean by, say, adding the books of the NT to the Bible in addition to the canon of the OT which, again, is the Scripture referred to in the writings of the NT?

Where in the canon of Scripture that "your brand of religion" uses does it tell you which texts are to be included in Bible? Your "brand of religion" uses a canon of Scripture that differs from that used by Fred's "brand of religion": How do you know yours is the right one and his is not? Does Scripture tell you that or did you hear it someplace else?

If you wish to be "Biblical" then, by all means, be "Biblical". But then, in that case, you really ought to be able to give Biblical justification for the canon of Scripture you use, as well as for your assumption that the Bible is the sole authority and standard of truth in matters of doctrine and discipline. I encourage you to join the discussion of this very topic in the religious discussion forum. It would be nice to hear from another voice on this subject since it is, I think we can all agree, a very important one for anyone who takes the word of God seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Be specific - what documents did the Apostles write that are scriptural but outside of the Bible?

How about the Didache?

Many people believe that it was written by the Twelve before leaving Jerusalem for their various ministries. Of course, there is some debate about its authorship, but certainly no more than, say, whether Paul was really the author of Colossians and Hebrews (something almost no Biblical scholars believe) or Ephesians (which few scholars believe was penned by Paul, and which, it is widely believed, was not in fact written to a congregation in Ephesus but more likely in Laodicea). In fact, there is far more scholarly agreement regarding the attribution of the Didache to the Twelve than there is regarding the attribution of the Gospels of Matthew to Matthew or of Mark to Mark or of Luke to Luke or of John to John (the original attrubutions of the Gospels to these figures were made in the second century and so are a matter of Tradition).

Also, the Didache has been more faithfully transmitted than has, say, the Gospel of Mark. The manuscript tradition of Mark bears evidence of considerable corruption, so much, in fact, that we aren't even sure whether its sixteenth chapter ends at verse 8 or verse 20. Biblical scholars agree that the shorter version of Mark was the original and that eveything after the middle of v.8 is a later addition. But that's the point: The manuscripts don't agree, and so we have no way of knowing with certainty where Mark was originally supposed to end, with terror and amazement (v.8) or with the proclamation of the gospel confirmed by Christ through signs (v.20). The addition of vv.9-20 certainly makes for a more edifying conclusion. But Biblical scholars of all stripes agree that it was a later addition--and, as I say, we have early manuscripts some of which give testimony of the shorter ending and some of which give testimony of the longer ending.

Bear in mind, as well, that the Didache was included in many of the early canons of Scripture in use among Christians prior to the Council of Nicaea.

You don't like my OT quite, How about the one in Revelation 22:18-21? Since this is the last statement in the Bible, do you then contend that it is meant only for the book of Revelation or to the entire bible? My guess you will attempt to argue it pertains only to Revelation. Personally I take it to mean the entire Bible. Your brand or religion might not take it that way and that is why you argue so fervently for other writings that are not in the bible as being inspired by some deity or other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

Do you mean by, say, removing books from the canon of the Septuagint, which was the canon used by Jesus and the Apostles and quoted in the NT? Fred's "brand of religion" hasn't done that. Yours has.

Books were removed from the canon of the Septuagint? Please, do tell!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoue

How about the Didache?

You consider the Didache to be canonical? Have you started your own personal definition of the canon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Books were removed from the canon of the Septuagint? Please, do tell!

Well, there are books included in the canon of the Septuagint which you do not regard as canonical. These include: Tobit; 1, 2 Maccabees; Sirach, Judith; Wisdom; Baruch. It is widely known--and you are more than welcome to look it up--that there are references in the NT to each of these. You have therefore removed from the Scriptures books which are contained in the Septuagint and which are referred to in the NT. 450donn asked by what right Fred's "brand of religion" removes from or adds to the Scriptures. I have now shown that you have removed from the Scriptures (i.e. from what was regarded as Scripture by the NT); and all Christians have added to the OT by regarding the NT as Scripture. Therefore, 450donn's point lacks merit.