Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But it does NOT follow that anyone but Jesus is a priest over over others. The office of a priest is to be a bridge between man and God, and scripture is clear that there is only one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus.

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The office of the priest/believers are to plant seed. Each can example that by feeding Truth of The Word. The Word being of Christ Jesus, the begotten Son of God, worthy to follow, and hear His voice which is found in what is written. And walking as He walked in righteousness according to His Father's Will. There is only One mediator, the Holy Spirit that was in Christ as he can also be within us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The reason that there is a priesthood of believers is that we are each able to come directly before God ourselves without needing to got to another priest. That in and of itself puts the rest the belief in the need of priests in the church.

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More over would be, that The Holy Spirit will come to us and anoint us, Christ stands at the door and knocks. The Holy Spirit resides within us that do follow, and will keep us in His Ways.

Some men will say, God will keep you in all your ways... That is a lie! Because the Spirit resided within those that follow.. Christ did show us of satan's work in enticing words.

Hear Christ words: "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" Note: To walk outside the light is to tempt God...

Hear Christ words, "Man does not live by bread alone, but in every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" The anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you.... (note he has come to you)... then anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you.... (note within you resided The Holy Spirit)ye need not that any man teach you.. (For He will guide you in His way) Psalms 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Each should question, what are thy ways when you walk in Christ? Thy ways are rigtheousness, the meat of The Word. Doing as Christ fulfilled for us to do, according to His way, His voice as one in Christ, just as Christ was one in His Father...

We must go beyond the milk of babes seeking His Ways

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
I think we all agree that God IS above all and the Jesus IS THE high priest of all.
But as others have here said true Christians are priests and so are the Christian elders.
Some are ordained as the bible tells us by laying on of the hands.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Discern and watch every word...

Did the scribe give the impression to the people that each knew scripture and the Word of God. Did each follow the Word of God?

Remember Fred what you had asked on another thread.. What did Christ know of man? Christ did know of the scribes which were sown with satan's sons as tares.

The Field of the World

Remember the parable of the tares... it is written and is His Words to hear.

Truth:

Christ is the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls. ( I Peter 2:25) Christ by whose stripes you were healed.

Scripture says, For we are labourers together with God: you are God's husbandry (a cultivated field), you are God's building. God increases as He Wilt, you can plant and water but neither are anything except that which God gives the increase. Which goes back to watch with causion the field of the world.

Tj3,
So you believe but I do not.
I believe that Jesus selected His apostles for a purpose that reached beyond the time of His sacrifice.
That is to be the bishops (therefore priests) of His Church.
Nothing you can say or do will change my belief on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
So you believe but I do not.

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Yes, Fred, I do believe the Bible.

Quote:

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I believe that Jesus selected His apostles for a purpose that reached beyond the time of His sacrifice.

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They helped to set the foundations of Christianity.

Quote:

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That is to be the bishops (therefore priests) of His Church.

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You have not shown me any reason believe that a bishop is a priest.

Quote:

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Nothing you can say or do will change my belief on that.

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Or, as it often seems... anything else :p

Tj3,
I also believe the bible.
Also if a Christian bishop is not a priest in you mind what are they, chopped liver?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I also believe the bible.
Also if a Christian bishop is not a priest in you mind what are they, chopped liver?

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A Christian bishop is what scripture says that they are, leaders in the Christian church. If you think that they are specifically priests, why not just show us where scripture says that?

Tj3,
I have no need to show you anything from the bible seen as you claim to know it so well.
I do NOT want to get into an argument with you about this.
I told you what I believe.
Either accept that of forget it.
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I have no need to show you anything from the bible seen as you claim to know it so well.

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I guess neither of us know anyplace that scripture says that bishops are priests.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

This discussion went from all believers are priests, to the term "ministerial priests. And then there are the episkopoi, bishops, and diaconate.

#7 posting by Akoue: While it is true that Christ is the High Priest of the Church, this in no way militates against an ordained priesthood, established and expanded through the laying on of hands.

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And Akoue was correct in his understanding of scripture and his statement regarding that understanding. So where is the lie in this? Or, is it that you just simply don't like the response. It conflicts somehow with what your subjective view of the Scripture.

We can have a view that all Christian faiths are equal, correct, and efficient in their duty to the flock, except, except, except Catholics. Is this what I'm reading?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

On to the Trinity, and the fact is the term is not in the scripture.

#9 posted by Tj3: Presbuteros is more properly translated as "elder". You'd be hard pressed to find a translation of the Bible translating presbuteros as priest other than Bible specific to Catholic denominations.

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The first line in the quote above doesn't have anything to do with the 2nd paragraph.

You may have misunderstood one thing Akoue said about homoousious, and thought it wasn't correct. He was stating that the word Hmoousious is not found in scripture, yet we believe it to be true. This is true statement. For your information homoousious means 'consubstantial' or 'one in being'. This is the way you and I both think of the Trinity. Christ is “one in being” with the Father.

As to your second paragraph, presubteros was taken to mean ordained priests from Christ's commissioning of his Kingdom. The early church, (whether or not you want to call it Catholic or not, whether you can pick it out of Scripture or not), had ordained priests, bishops, deacons, and doctors. I fully realize your angst here; you have to ask yourself, if the early Catholic Church had ordained ministers then why not the Protestant and Evangelical Churches have ordained ministers. It could rightly be something you should consider.

Again I ask, who lied? Different views were given but no lies. Again, I guess this holds for all other Christian faiths except for Catholics – their views are to be taken as lies? Surly you're a bigger man than that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

From posting # 2 from Tj3 thr posting # 5 by DeMaria, and #6 also: everyone agreed that believers are priests . So why would it be hard pressed to think of an elder as a priest, unless of course you think elers are not believers.

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Yes, we all become participants in the sacrifice at mass. The Jewish religion held that only the priest gave up the sacrifice, only the priest entered the Holy of Holies. The mass is said in such a way so that all baptized Christians become priest-like in offering the sacrifice, and partaking in the Eucharist. Yet, it takes an ordained priest to offer the sacrifice; anybody else and the Eucharist becomes invalid.

So, where is the lie? Or, is it 'Catholic' you object to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

My point is that with this entire discussion, the reality still remain that God is above all.

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Agreed. Even still, you're being too myopic, nobody said that God wasn't the focus. In fact all of Catholic faith centers on Christ, centers on God, centers on the Holy Spirit. So where is the lie?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

And so all of this is least of importance, and because it is least important, in the end we are told the last will be first

Man can get so puffed up in pridefullness towards someone other then what is reality. In doing so they mock God...

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This is strictly an opinion of what you 'think' Catholicism is about. “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.” -foreward to Radio Replies Vol. 1, page ix, Archbishop Fulton Sheen. And I don't fault you for this; living less than 50 miles north of you, I fully understand how the misconception comes to play. It's OK not to be Catholic, but I really don't know how you can have a full loving relationship in faith without what's offered 'inside' the Church. What I'm saying is that I don't know how you can love God and hate His Kingdom. But, you work that one out; I've already made my bed in a Catholic pew, kneeling pad and all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

There is only "One" of importance written in scripture... (John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

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And to live it ALL, FULLY, as best a man can, is to be Catholic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

As is written: Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Can it be seen and heard in scripture, how God tells us man is least?

That man, is only seen in his puffed up pride, and foolishness to think he is more then what he actually is? YES I know it does..

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
God's Word of Truth!

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I was seduced by God's absolute truth long ago, thanks be to God. I was seduced by the fact that God is Truth and all truth resides in God and Christ is the head of the Catholic Church, His Kingdom. No peff here, no dilutions, all references are checked and proven; my faith is rooted firmly in the fertile ground of 2,000 years of orthodox Catholic faith. (notice the little 'o')

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Jeremiah 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jeremiah 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, [and] weary themselves to commit iniquity.

~Trust in God

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This is why I rely on the authority of the Magisterium so my neighbor doesn't influence my faith in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - Christ's Kingdom on Earth.

So, where is the lie?

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

This is why I rely on the authority of the Magisterium so my neighbor doesn’t influence my faith in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - Christ's Kingdom on Earth.

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This is where we disagree. I rely upon God's word rather than the teachings of a denomination.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

This is where we disagree. i rely upon God's word rather than the teachings of a denomination.

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In the division of taxonomy are life, domain, kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, and species in descending order. That is to say, species are subgroups of genus, genus along with all the subgroups of species are subgroups of family, etc, etc. Since all things are created, matter and life along with all the subgroups are of God. Since the Divine is the domain of Christ, all kingdoms along with subgroups belong to Christ. Since Christ is the prince of the kingdom and since the body of Christ, the Church, is a kingdom in the order of religions. Since the existence of all other Christian religions relies on the Church they rightly would be subgroups of the Church. Thus, ‘denomination’ is common to your species and ‘Kingdom’ is common to the Roman Catholic Church in the order of Christian faiths.

JoeT

Joe,
Great answers in that post.
I went to Mass in a nearby City this evening and was served by a marvelous humble priest.
Everyone in The Church was a priest, but only on was ordained.
I notice that some people do not understand The Church's teaching or the Magisterium and what it does or who leads and inspires it.
That's sad.
I sometime wonder if they purposely do not understand on purpose.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

THE ORDAINED PRIEST

As you may recall, Christ stated that he didn't come to destroy Judaism and the law, but rather to instill the law in the heart. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”. Matt 5:17. Consider this in view of Old Testament priests who exercised a position of intermediary between man and God through the sacrifices.: "for every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins" (cf. Hebrews 5:1) Consequently, Christ didn't abolish priesthood in the New Testament, but rather gave them the New Sacramental tools with which to mediate fulfilling salvific graces. The ordained priest dispenses saving graces through the sacraments.

As to the etymology of 'presbyteros' , 2,000 years of Catholic history has taught that the meaning in English is 'ordained priest'. The writings of all the Church Doctors understood presbyteros in this light, but we'll save the quotes for another thread. A priest is ordained, by lying on of hands, by bishops, which in turn get their authority from the successors of the Apostles. In the hierarchy of the Church this puts priests immediately after Bishops (which, by the way, are scripturally defined, along with deacons and doctors). Ordination is no small sacrament because it confers powers as opposed to rights. Such powers include celebrating mass, remission of sins, teaching, and administering of graces in the sacraments.

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Since the Divine is the domain of Christ, all kingdoms along with subgroups belong to Christ. Since Christ is the prince of the kingdom and since the body of Christ, the Church, is a kingdom in the order of religions. Since the existence of all other Christian religions relies on the Church they rightly would be subgroups of the Church. Thus, 'denomination' is common to your species and 'Kingdom' is common to the Roman Catholic Church in the order of Christian faiths.

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Though all kingdoms and subgroups belong to Christ, not all follow what He says in His word. Some may follow in whole, some may follow in part, but just because all kingdoms and churches are under his authority as God, it is wrong to say that everything done by any kingdom or church is automatically of God. That is, more often than not, not true.

Second, even in churches where they do teach sound doctrine, not all who are in those churches are saved.

Third, Jesus Himself said that not all who profess to follow Him actually do.

Thus your whole thesis falls apart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

THE ORDAINED PRIEST

As you may recall, Christ stated that he didn't come to destroy Judaism and the law, but rather to instill the law in the heart. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”. Matt 5:17. Consider this in view of Old Testament priests who exercised a position of intermediary between man and God through the sacrifices.: "for every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins" (cf. Hebrews 5:1) Consequently, Christ didn't abolish priesthood in the New Testament, but rather gave them the New Sacramental tools with which to mediate fulfilling salvific graces. The ordained priest dispenses saving graces through the sacraments.

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A couple of problems with this logic:

1) If you are suggesting that the priesthood of your denomination is an extension of the OT priesthood, then they must all be of the Jewish tribe of Levi. I know for a fact that this neither true, nor a condition of entering the catholic priesthood.

2) The power of the OT priesthood to act as the mediator between God and man was ended when Jesus died and was resurrected, and when the curtain was torn which separated the Holy of Holies from the people. No longer was their a barrier, but with Jesus as the High Priest of our confession, we can come directly before the throne of God.

Heb 7:28
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
NKJV


Heb 7:22-24
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
NKJV

Quote:

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As to the etymology of 'presbyteros' , 2,000 years of Catholic history has taught that the meaning in English is 'ordained priest'. The writings of all the Church Doctors understood presbyteros in this light, but we'll save the quotes for another thread. A priest is ordained, by lying on of hands, by bishops, which in turn get their authority from the successors of the Apostles. In the hierarchy of the Church this puts priests immediately after Bishops (which, by the way, are scripturally defined, along with deacons and doctors). Ordination is no small sacrament because it confers powers as opposed to rights. Such powers include celebrating mass, remission of sins, teaching, and administering of graces in the sacraments.

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Again, this is specific to the teachings of your denomination, which by necessity must defend their practice of ordaining priests. It is your denomination (and affiliated denominations) that add the word "priest" to the definition of presbuteros.

Tell me, if God meant "priest" and not "elder) (as presbuteros rightly means), why did God not us the word "hiereus" which does mean priest and which is used throughout the NT with respect to the Jewish priesthood and with respect to Jesus as our high priest, but not one to any office in the leadership of the Christian church?

Joe,
1 Tim 3: 15"the household of God, which is The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
Therefor you are right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
1 Tim 3: 15"the household of God, which is The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

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1 Tim 3:15-16
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
NKJV

What does scripture say?

Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
NKJV

So we see that individuals who "overcome" are the pillars. Who are those who overcome?

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV

There is much more in scripture, but it is clear that it those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them. If the word of God abides in them, then the word of God preceded the church, and the pillars of the church are the individuals who are saved, which agrees with what we read in scripture:

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

The true church therefore is not a manmade organization, but it is the body of Christ, of overcomers, those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them.

The physical church building represents the church insofar as it has the "pillars" to uphold the word of God within the church, if not, like any building without pillars, it falls. Further, the foundation is Jesus:

1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

And where the pillars are absent, so is the foundation absent and again, the building must fall. No church organization/denomination can stand as a Church of God unless it has Jesus Christ as it's foundation and those who are saved and in whom the word of God abides as it's pillars.

Therefore the Church of the Living God is the body of all believers, not a denomination.

That does not change the fact that Jesus founded His Church on earth with Peter as its first leader and gave to Peter the keys to heaven.

Now arcura , what does facts have to do with it, if you are anti catholic and your denomination teaches against it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

That does not change the fact that Jesus founded His Church on earth with Peter as its first leader and gave to Peter the keys to heaven.

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Fred,

When I have your word versus what scripture says, I am afraid I have to go with what scripture says, which places Jesus as the one at the head of the church, and Jesus as the one with the keys.

Fr_Chuck,
Excellent point.
Well made.
I go by what Scripture says by they interpret it to fit what they want it to say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

When I have your word versus what scripture says, I am afraid I have to go with what scripture says, which places Jesus as the one at the head of the church, and Jesus as the one with the keys.

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19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

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What were these keys? We see that the Pharisees had the keys:

Luke 11:52
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV

The keys were knowledge, but what knowledge would bind people and what knowledge was it that the Pharisees did not use to loose themselves by entering in? It was the key of the truth and specifically the truth of the gospel. The Pharisees were the priests who had the key of truth by which they could guide the people into salvation, and instead of losing the keys to open the door, they bound the key, took it away from the people and bound themselves by not using it.

We see here in Matthew 16:

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Jesus gave the keys to the disciples. We see in Matthew 16:13 that he was speaking to the disciples:

Matt 16:13
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
NKJV

The gospel was not given just to one man, but to the disciples to use to take into the word to bring salvation to the people. Note that even the Pharisees were not given the keys, but Luke 11:52 says that they took the keys. Who from? It was from the people of Israel. The keys were never intended to be in the hands of only some people or one person, but Jesus took the keys from the Pharisees and gave them to the disciples, people who had already entered into their salvation and who knew that to use the keys, they had to give them to the people, that they too might enter. If they use the keys, people will no longer be bound and can enter and be saved. It is the keys of knowledge that loose men to be free in Christ and be no longer bound by sin.

Wondergirl,
Right you are.
The keys were the keys to heaven just as Scripture says.
In olden days of like of King david the keys to the treasury were given to the prime minister.
When Jesus gave the keys to heaven to Peter that made him Christ's prime minister on earth.
Don't let anyone tell you different.
If you do you will be mislead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And what does the "bind" and "loose" mean, arcura?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

wondergirl,
Right you are.
The keys were the keys to heaven just as Scripture says.
In olden days of like of King david the keys to the treasury were given to the prime minister.
When Jesus gave the keys to heaven to Peter that made him Christ's prime minister on earth.

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Except scripture does not say that.

BTW, Jesus is holding the Keys in Revelation.

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

The Imposition of the Hands of the Priesthood

The primary role, the very essence of priesthood is to perform sacrifice. A sacrifice we are invited to partake, the sacrifice rejected by non-Catholics. Aaron chose the tribe of Levi act not as priests but as servants or assistants to priest. In a ceremony at almost the same time Aaron was anointed high-priest. (Cf. Exodus 29:1-37; 40:12 sqq.; Leviticus 8:1-36). In David's Tabernacle tradition there were four classes of Levites; servants of the priests, officials and judges, porters, and finally musicians and singers (1 Chronicles 23:3 sqq.). After the Babylonian exile the Levite priesthood died out. A new priesthood was established for the Herod's tradition of the Temple. Priests did the washing, cleaning of the temple, renewal of the proposition loaves, filling the oil-lamps and the menorah. Priests in the Herod's tradition offered the sacrifices each day. In 70 A.D. the sacrificial service performed by the priesthood ceased. What grew from this was a rabbinic system where rabbis no longer performed priestly sacrifices, but rather merely became teachers of the law.

In the Catholic teaching priests enjoy the fullness of ordination, primi ordinis. Deacon is an attendant to the priest with no priestly powers. This was foreshadowed by Melchisedech (cf. Genesis 14:18 sqq.) who offered bread and wine. The priesthood of Melchisedech was a prophetic reference to the Last Supper and the Mass where the bread and wine are sacrificed, changed into the 'real presence' of Christ.

The main testimony of the New Testament lies in the account of the institution of the Eucharist, and most clearly in the words of consecration spoken over the chalice. This takes place in the consecration of the bread and wine which too is Scripturally formulated.

Matthew 26:28: Touto gar estin to aima mou to tes [kaines] diathekes to peri pollon ekchynnomenon eis aphesin amartion. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Mark 14:24: Touto estin to aima mou tes kaines diathekes to yper pollon ekchynnomenon. This is my blood of the new testament which shall be shed for many.

Luke 22:20: Touto to poterion he kaine diatheke en to aimati mou, to yper ymon ekchynnomenon. This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25: Touto to poterion he kaine diatheke estin en to emo aimati. This chalice is the new testament in my blood.

The Council of Trent makes it clear that without priest the Church of Christ (Roman Catholic Church) wouldn't exist. "If any one shall say that in the New Testament there is no visible and external priesthood nor any power of consecrating and offering the Body and Blood of the Lord, as well as of remitting and retaining sins, but merely the office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel, let him be anathema." The reason shold be obvious, it is the priest who offers the sacrifice, without the ordained priest we are without the Holy Eucharist, and without the Eucharist there is no Church. Christianity becomes story tellers with no Real Presence of Chirst. “Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5)

The evidence is clear that the early Roman Catholic Church ordained priests taught by the original Twelve and their successors , “Then they fasting and praying and imposing their hands upon them, sent them away.” ( Acts 13:3) St. Luke's description of the ordination was simple, “And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.” ( Acts 14:22) And Paul tells Timothy not to “Neglect not the grace that is in thee [the authority to ordain priests], which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.” (1 Tim 4:14) A special order of the simple presbyterii requiring the laying on of hands. A special authority, not taken on lightly, rather fulfillment of prophecy. And further, Paul advises not to “Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.” (1 Tim 5:22) And again, “For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands” (2 Timothy 1:6)

Consequently, not only is Peter leader of our Church, leader of all Christianity, but it's though his authority that we are graced with this special order of presbyterii.

Deo Grátias; Thnaks be to God.


JoeT

Wondergirl,
In that Scripture bind is to be bound, that is tied or fastened.
Loose, however, is the opposite of that.
Compare that to not forgiven (bind) and forgiven (loose).
I went to confession Saturday eve just before Mass.
In the name of Jesus Christ my sins were loosed (forgiven).
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Lost Keys?

Talk about losing the key to understanding. “Woe to you lawyers, for you have taken away the key of knowledge,” hardly equates to “the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven".

JoeT

Joe,
Thanks for that very good post on the priesthood.
I was looking for references to that and you put it all together for me and others here.
On a side note about priests or Bishop informed us that 130 new Catholic converts will be brought into the Church here in this area of Montana on Easter with a grand slam of graces, baptism, confession, confirmation, and the Holy Ercharist.
This year there are serveral thousand of adults alone, nation wide, going to go through the same thing.
The Church is growing well with new adult converts.
The Coming Home Network (founded by a Catholic convert) is a great help in that field.
The Coming Home Network International
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,

I understand your denominational teaching, but no matter how long you make your post, the fact remains scripture neither supports the contention that Peter was head of either the Church or any denomination, and scripture does not support the contention that there was any office of priest in the Church. The word is simply not used anywhere ibn the NT is that context.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Lost Keys?

Talk about losing the key to understanding. “Woe to you lawyers, for you have taken away the key of knowledge,” hardly equates to “the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven".

JoeT

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So how does one get into the Kingdom, Joe, if one does not have knowledge of the gospel? Do you know of a different way to be saved?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So how does one get into the Kingdom, Joe, if one does not have knowledge of the gospel? Do you know of a different way to be saved?

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That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

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Really? And what exactly do you think that the Kingdom of heaven is?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Really? And what exactly do you think that the Kingdom of heaven is?

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That's not the question.

From Luther's Small Catechism --

The use of the Keys is that special power and right which Christ gave to his church on earth, to forgive the sins of penitent sinners but to refuse forgiveness to the impenitent as long as they do not repent.

Where is this written?

The holy Evangelist John writes in chapter 20, "Jesus breathed on his disciples and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

How does a Christian congregation use the Keys?
A Christian congregation with its called servant of Christ uses the Keys in accordance with Christ's command by forgiving those who repent of their sin and are willing to amend, and by excluding from the congregation those who are plainly impenitent that they may repent. I believe that, when this is done, it is as valid and certain in heaven also, as if Christ, our dear Lord, dealt with us himself.

Where is this written?

Jesus says in Matthew, chapter 1, "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's not the question.

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But it is.

I am not Lutheran so I will go by what scripture says, not your denominational theology.

The keys of Kingdom of heaven is what the verse refers to.

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Please answer the question - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

Wondergirl,
You are right again.
The Scripture is clerar that the keys to heaven are in relation to the forgiveness or not forgiveness of sins.
Any other interpretation of that is in error.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

The Scripture is clerar that the keys to heaven are in relation to the forgiveness or not forgiveness of sins.

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I am glad to see that you agree with me that the keys refer to salvation.

Wondergirl said:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

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I added the red colour to the lettering to show where she said that the keys had nothing to do with salvation.

Though she is right that the keys were given to the disciples and not just Peter.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But it is.

I am not Lutheran so I will go by what scripture says, not your denominational theology.

The keys of Kingdom of heaven is what the verse refers to.

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Please answer the question - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

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It's keys to the kingdom of heaven. On Pentecost, Peter first opened the doors and declared the conditions of which men could have their sins forgiven, be bound or loosed, and thus enter into the Church on earth. Seven years later at Caesarea he declared the same conditions to the Gentiles. While Peter took the lead, the keys were given to all the apostles.

Jesus Himself, and only He, has given us the kingdom of heaven with His sacrifice on the cross. The apostles merely unlocked or locked the door into the kingdom.

The apostles are no longer with us. Who has the keys now?

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Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
Thanks for that very good post on the priesthood.
I was looking for references to that and you put it all together for me and others here.
On a side note about priests or Bishop informed us that 130 new Catholic converts will be brought into the Church here in this area of Montana on Easter with a grand slam of graces, baptism, confession, confirmation, and the Holy Ercharist.
This year there are serveral thousand of adults alone, nation wide, going to go through the same thing.
The Church is growing well with new adult converts.
The Coming Home Network (founded by a Catholic convert) is a great help in that field.
The Coming Home Network International
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Thanks, I value your comments.

Catechumens who are fortunate enough to schedule their first communion during Easter are especially graced. Unlike some of our non-Catholic friends, we cannot simply say ‘I’m Catholic’ and suddenly become dubbed with graces of being Catholic. It takes a little schooling. Catechumens learn that our faith is observance of the Divine law, as Christ said, “all things whatever I have commanded you", Matthew 28:20 . As I’ve been told, this is a lot for ‘bible only’ Christians to ingest since its counter to their traditions; i.e. viewing it as surrendering their right to interpret Scripture. Consequently, when asked, I try always to give a safe answer without being argumentative – and you know that’s hard for me. (My wife says I’d argue the bark off a telephone pole). Us born Catholics tend to get hung up on norms and traditions which can be misunderstood by the convert. Catechumens, or for that matter anybody, shouldn’t come to view us as “Italian Catholics” always arguing with “Irish Catholics” over which tradition is best. But, of course we all know the Italian traditions are far superior; not that I’m bias in any way – well at least the spaghetti is superior.

Yes, I once followed Marcus Grodi quite a bit. And whenever I can get EWTN on the television I like to watch his program. But, the down side, he plays strictly to the protestant converts. There are times when my interests drift to other topics of our faith. I used to have his book ‘Pope Fiction’. (At least I think it was Grodi’s).

JoeT