Ask Me Help Desk - The Book Of Revelations

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

Fred,
You have argued that before and it still is funny to me. Jesus sounds a trumpet and those living and dead in Christ will rise. No where does it say that Jesus will set foot on the earth does it? The second coming of Christ is at the battle of Armageddon and judgment day. Do you really want to live through all of the seven years of tribulations that are taught in Revelation? I certainly do not.

Have a great time during those seven years. Fred and I will be enjoying heaven.

And why would Jesus have to set foot on earth to sound a trumpet? Which foot? Where on earth? Will the trumpet be brass or made of silver? Will we get box lunches and a catered dinner, because it certainly will take God all day to judge all those billions of people. Will we be able to sit? I can't stand for that many hours. My cats will need to be fed. Certainly God won't want us to abandon our responsibilities to our pets? Or will God cause all pets and other animals to die on Judgment Day? That sounds pretty mean. (Methinks you are too involved thinking of the logistics of the Last Day.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Galveston,
Sorry, but I can not believe in multiple comings of Christ.
The bible says that there will be only one.
Read the book "THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE HOAX" by Harry Bethel.
It biblically proves that there will be n rapture.
There are several books out that prove that including "The Rapture Trap" by Dr. Paul Thigpen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Only one? I count two.

Acts 1:9-11
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
NKJV

The rapture is not a return to earth by Jesus, but a gathering of the saints.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura
Galveston,
Sorry, but I can not believe in multiple comings of Christ.
The bible says that there will be only one.
Read the book "THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE HOAX" by Harry Bethel.
It biblically proves that there will be n rapture.
There are several books out that prove that including "The Rapture Trap" by Dr. Paul Thigpen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Posted by Tj3: Only one? I count two.

Acts 1:9-11
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
NKJV

The rapture is not a return to earth by Jesus, but a gathering of the saints.

Posted by Akoue: Akoue disagrees: This is misleading as the quoted Scripture does not demonstrate that there will be two second comings. What is the second second coming? An encore?

Hey Akoue, Note that I said that there were two comings of Christ, not two second comings. Please, let's be honest when responding, and not mis-represent what others have said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Hey Akoue, Note that I said that there were two comings of Christ, not two second comings. Please, let's be honest when responding, and not mis-represent what others have said.

C'mon, Tom. What you said was misleading. Even I who have known you for years and years had to think about what you had written and consider what you meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

C'mon, Tom. What you said was misleading. Even I who have known you for years and years had to think about what you had written and consider what you meant.

It was quite clear. I said 2 comings, and I stated specifically that the rapture was not a coming.

If someone thought it was unclear, then the right approach is to ask for clarification. Further, those who have really known me for years, indeed those who have known me for shorter periods know what I believe in terms of the rapture, and never in my entire life have I stated that there was anything more that the com,ing of Jesus in the 1st century, the coming of Jesus in the second coming and the rapture of the saints (which I and others clearly explained was NOT a "coming").

Anyone who claims others is mis-representing what I said.

Ok, Tom.

450donn,
It is recorded the Messiah will indeed set foot on earth when the third temple is built and appear from it and He will NOT return before it is built.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, Fred, that is the time he comes for the battle of Armegeddon and to judge the whole earth. This is the time he comes to set up his kingdom here on earth.
Oh and the Rapture was clearly spoken about in writings from I believe the first century. It is nothing new as you and others try to claim. 1Th4:16,Tit2;13, Jn14:1-3, 1Co15:51-53, 1Th4:15-5:11, 1Co 3:11-15, 2Co5:10
In fact the tribulation period starts from the time that the church is taken away as attested to in: Jn14:1-3, 1Th4:13-18,

450donn,
Sorry, I still can not believe in it.
I have read too much about it to accept other than as bogus theology.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
I am really sorry that you do not believe the word of God on this subject. All I can do is pray that God will remove the blinders that you have so firmly affixed to your head so that you can see the way and truth of his teachings. Many do not want to understand and for them I really have to pray that they are not so misguided that they are left here on earth at the rapture (taking up) of his church. Which signals the start of the tribulation for those that remain here on earth.
Sorry to the OP that we have really gotten off topic and probably failed to properly answer his original questions.
Techpro There are many many resources on this subject. If your church does not teach it to your satisfaction, then please by all means find one that does. Or at least find a church that has/offers the information to help you on your journey of discovery about this fascinating subject. As you can see there is a great debate among the different denominations on this subject. While everybody believes their view is the right one and all others are wrong, I believe that we will see a fulfilling of the prophesies concerning the last days of the earth very soon. Ref Mat25, the parable of the ten virgins came to my mind while I was typing. It teaches us to be vigilant for the return of Jesus.

450donn,
Thanks but I am very satisfied with The Church I belong to.
If the rapture does occure and I meet you after I'll apologise.
But I'm certain NOW that there will be noe rapture AS IT IS BEING TAUGHT NOW DAYS.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by techpro

I have been trying to study as much as i can about the book of Revelations, but i have been having a hard time understanding some of the content, can anyone help me to better understand this book!
Any help is appreciated!

This is almost impossible to answer in the limited spece we have here. However, should you ask some definite question or mention a particularly difficult paragraph for you to understand, I may try to help you, to the best of my possibilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gromitt82

This is almost impossible to answer in the limited spece we have here. However, should you ask some definite question or mention a particularly difficult paragraph for you to understand, I may try to help you, to the best of my possibilities.

Well gromitt first of all I don't understand the part about the battle in heaven between the angels and the dragon!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

kingdom here on earth.
Oh and the Rapture was clearly spoken about in writings from I believe the first century. It is nothing new as you and others try to claim.

Please provide sources to this documentation that you claim that the rapture was clearly spoken about in the early centuries. Next, I would like to ask if you are pre, mid, or post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

450donn,
Thanks but I am very satisfied with The Church I belong to.
Fred

Hey, I was just wondering what church are you a member of? I know saying "The Church" is an allusion to something but I can only speculate your intentions.:D

DominusVobiscum and all of the other fine people here on this forum that are interested in the writing of the end days, here is a link for you to go and read for yourselves.
Early Church Teaching On Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Believe, don't believe that is totally up to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

DominusVobiscum and all of the other fine people here on this forum that are interested in the writing of the end days, here is a link for you to go and read for yourselves.
Early Church Teaching On Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Believe, don't believe that is totally up to you.

Now don't be ridiculous 450don, this is not proof that the early church believed in the pre-trib rapture. This just proves that some isolated members of the Church believed in the rapture as you describe it. I asked for proof that the Church as a whole taught the rapture.
Also look at this list of early church leaders in 330-335 that taught heresy; In the church in Antioch, Paulinus (330), Eulalius (330), Euphronius (332), Flaccilus (335). They all taught Arianism! Now does that prove that the early Church as a whole taught and believed Arianism? No of course not! It just proves that a few heretical leaders adhered to heresy. Not the whole Church. So again, can you please show me documentation that proves the early Church taught the Rapture?

And I could ask you the same thing. I gave you one link to the article I referred to just like you asked, and you want to still argue about it. Please go back and reread my original post. That is fine, But don't try and drag me into debating you. I NEVER claimed that it was taught in the catholic church. I did say that it was written about in what I remembered as the first century. My mistake it was the 4th century. It is obvious that you will not believe no matter what Remember that the Pharisees also refused to believe what was right in front of them in the form of Jesus Christ. And instead crucified him in accordance with the scriptures. Yet they still did not believe!

DominusVobiscum,
Any time I use the term "The Church" with capitol letters I refer to The Church that Jesus founded with Peter as its first leader that is now called The Catholic Church which I became a member of over 30 years ago after leaving Protestantism.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

DominusVobiscum,
Any time I use the term "The Church" with capitol letters I refer to The Church that Jesus founded with Peter as its first leader that is now called The Catholic Church which I became a member of over 30 years ago after leaving Protestantism.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I knew it! I also use that allusion. But I just wanted to make sure. By the way, what rite do you belong to? I belong to the Roman rite.

To the OP. The battle between the angels and the dragon may be accepted as literal, though unseen by men. The dragon is a portrayal of Satan himself, and he and his angels will be thrown down to the surface of this planet. As of right now, they still have access to the heavens, at least to the immediate heavens, i.e. the atmosphere.

But didn't god banish him from the heavens before therefore creating hell?

Quote:

Originally Posted by techpro

but didn't god banish him from the heavens before therefore creating hell?

No. Even though Hell was created for the devil and his angels, none of them have been there---yet. In the book of Job, we see Satan appearing at the throne of God making accusation against Job.

Eph 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(KJV)

In this scripture you see Satan identified as "the prince of the power of the air" so his casting down to the Earth is still future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by galveston

No. Even though Hell was created for the devil and his angels, none of them have been there---yet.

So when you say this you mean Satan was never actually sent to the hell that was created for him, just sent down to the earth to tempt us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by techpro

So when you say this you mean Satan was never actually sent to the hell that was created for him, just sent down to the earth to tempt us?

I simply mean that though Satan has been judged, he has not yet been incarcerated. He will be though. You have to understand that this Earth was under the oversight of the Archangel who later rebelled against God. We know him as Satan or the devil. Adam was given oversight, but forfeited it when he rejected God and accepted Satan as his advisor. God operates by laws that we only slightly comprehend, but since He (God) had turned this world over to Adam and Adam subsequently turned it back to Satan, it became necessary to regain full control by the bringing of life back into situation that had become a realm of death. All the history of the Bible is a record of Jehova's plan to keep His promise to Eve concerning "her seed" (Messian/Christ). We will all be tested and proven before we are allowed to enter into the Eternal City of God. So in this respect, even Satan serves some function in spite of himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by techpro

I have been trying to study as much as i can about the book of Revelations, but i have been having a hard time understanding some of the content, can anyone help me to better understand this book!
Any help is appreciated!

Techpro - the Book of Revelation was a book that got into the canon by the skin of its teeth. It was essentially ignored for a thousand years, then in the 19th century the Fundamentalists got ahold of it and made it into something it was never intended to be.

It was written about the Roman Empire but you will never convince present-day fundamentalists that this is what it was all about. The radical right of Christianity loves to see Satan and the Catholic Church in this quirky book. It was the Harry Potter book of the day.

It is by far the best example of how badly some folks can interpret the Bible to fit their agenda.

Main stream theologians (Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican, etc.) have long since discarded this book as meaning anything other than its original intention as a coded message against the Roman Empire.

The fundamentalists love it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

DominusVobiscum,
Any time I use the term "The Church" with capitol letters I refer to The Church that Jesus founded with Peter as its first leader that is now called The Catholic Church which I became a member of over 30 years ago after leaving Protestantism.

Jesus never appointed Peter as the head of any church. The Church that Jesus Christ established is the body of all believers that He called the Body of Christ. He did not found a denomination.

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 2
NKJV

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Jesus never appointed Peter as the head of any church. The Church that Jesus Christ established is the body of all believers that He called the Body of Christ. He did not found a denomination.

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 2
NKJV

Sorry, but Jesus DID appoint Peter as head of his church. It couldn't be more clear in the Gospel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

Sorry, but Jesus DID appoint Peter as head of his church. It couldn't be more clear in the Gospel.

It must have been penciled in in yours.:D

It is not in mine. Mine says Jesus was and is and remains head of the church:

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

So, He is head of my Church. Sorry to hear about yours. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

It must have been penciled in in yours.:D

It is not in mine. Mine says Jesus was and is and remains head of the church:

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

So, He is head of my Church. Sorry to hear about yours. ;)

You need to read the Gospel.

I have a book called "Revelation, Gods Word for Biblically-Inept"
It is by Daymond R. Duck.You should take a look at it. I found it very useful

Maggie 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

You need to read the Gospel.

I have - all of them many times, and I can state categorically that there is nothing in any of them saying that Christ ceased being head of the church and turned that over to any man.

DominusVobiscum
Roman Rite.
And the bible DOES clearly say that Jesus appointed Perter as the leader of His Church on earth and gave him the keys to heaven.
Matthew 16: 18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

I have - all of them many times, and I can state categorically that there is nothing in any of them saying that Christ ceased being head of the church and turned that over to any man.

I don't think you have. Try again. It's all very clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athos

I don't think you have. Try again. It's all very clear.

Think as you wish - but I have, many times, and very thoroughly.

As the scripture that I quoted states - Christ is the head of the church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

DominusVobiscum
Roman Rite.
And the bible DOES clearly say that Jesus appointed Perter as the leader of His Church on earth and gave him the keys to heaven.
Matthew 16: 18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Is that what you were thinking of?

Matt 16:13-19
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

What do we see here?

- Jesus was speaking to his disciples as a group

- The topic was "who is Jesus"

- Peter answered that he is the Messiah, son of the living God.

- Jesus does not immediately refer to Peter, but rather the fact that the revelation of the truth came from God the father.

The word Peter here is Petros, which means stone or a piece of a rock, and then Jesus refers to the "rock" which is the revelation of who he is, and states that His church shall be built upon this revelation that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. The word "rock" here is Petra, which means rock, or a mass of rock. We do not build a building upon a piece of a rock or a stone, but rather upon a rock that is massive enough to provide a solid foundation. Jesus' choice of words made it clear which should be the foundation of His church. It is interesting to note the consistency of scripture in the use of these terms, Rock and stone. Throughout scripture, the Rock refers to God (Father or Son):

I have PM and asked for them to explain the relationship,

But the OP techpro and the other new poster here DominusVobiscum are using the same IP address, and use the same server for their email address.

I have asked for them to explain this to me but we may well have the same person, answering thierself

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

DominusVobiscum
Roman Rite.
And the bible DOES clearly say that Jesus appointed Perter as the leader of His Church on earth and gave him the keys to heaven.
Matthew 16: 18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi Fred.

That's a great verse. It's even more clear in Aramaic, the language in which Matthew was originally written: "And I tell you you are KEPHA, and on this KEPHA I will build my church". Sure seems like Christ was talking to Peter about Peter, doesn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Think as you wish - but I have, many times, and very thoroughly.

As the scripture that I quoted states - Christ is the head of the church.

I don't think you have. And not as thoroughly as you may think.