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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

My question is what makes one religion anymore "true" than another? What would be the reason for different denominations within the Christian religion if there was only one way to believe? If there is room for some alternatives there, why not elsewhere?

What is "the way" for one religion will not be the same for another....but perhaps that is not necessarily a problem if the way one leads their life and how they interact with others and the world around them bring them to the same place with the same purpose.

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The idea of two equal faiths having mutually opposed tenets is irrational. There can be only one absolute truth, without which we would have a schizophrenic God.

The argument that takes the form; “one religion is as good as another;” is a notion that is terribly illogical. Given any two denominations if either one holds one or more mutually contradictory fundamental truths (without the conflict they wouldn't be different denominations), since both can't be true, one or both must be wrong. Since religion shouldn't teach error in faith, then these two religions can only be equal when in error. The religion without an error is said to represent God's reveled truth and as such is the one, true, universal faith.

JoeT

JoeT,
I believe that is True.
I agree.
Fred

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Your response presumes that I’m intolerant of other religions.

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I was trying to be funny, Joe.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I was trying to be funny, Joe.

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Oops

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

The religion without an error is said to represent God’s reveled truth and as such is the one, true, universal faith.

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And that one true religion just happens to be yours.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And that one true religion just happens to be yours.

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Certainly.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

The idea of two equal faiths having mutually opposed tenets is irrational. There can be only one absolute truth, without which we would have a schizophrenic God.

The argument that takes the form; “one religion is as good as another;” is a notion that is terribly illogical. Given any two denominations if either one holds one or more mutually contradictory fundamental truths (without the conflict they wouldn’t be different denominations), since both can’t be true, one or both must be wrong. Since religion shouldn't teach error in faith, then these two religions can only be equal when in error. The religion without an error is said to represent God’s reveled truth and as such is the one, true, universal faith.

JoeT

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Reminds me of what is happening in my kids' sports today;

There is a trophy not only for first place but for second third etc... ;)


I am dismayed that non-Christians view Christianity, or more likely Christians as intolerant, and I am as much to blame. I'm not preaching denomination, just that those who don't believe start with the gospels and ask God all your questions.

God keeps track of the "points" if you don't believe, and you can never score enough to win in His eyes.

However; God gives you a trophy [ heaven if you will ] just for participating, if you believe. :)






G&P

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Originally Posted by arcura

DoulaLC,
You may be right that conversion of large numbers of people does not take place today, by maybe not....
But I personally know of several conversions to Christianity.
One of them was a Muslim at a college here in Montana to Christianity. There have been several of those.
Another is the conversion of many Jews to Christianity and some of them have become ministers or Priests.
I myself was able to aid the Holy Spirit in the conversion of a druid to Christianity.
He received a grand slam in graces.
That is he was baptized, had his first confession, confirmed, and received the Eucharist in ceremonies all the same day.
The national news often tells us of several Muslims whose lives have been lost or threatened.
So you see that there are many conversions that take place every year yet today.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Yes, I agree, people do convert to various religions... I had mentioned this sometimes happens through family, friends, spouses, etc.. I have known of people who have converted to Chrisitanity as well, and also those who converted to Islam, Judisim, Buddhism, and a few who are now agnostics or atheists.

It's a small percentage of people who actually go out and truly study numerous religions before deciding what they believe or don't believe. Certainly some will have religious studies in school, but I'm talking of more than that limited exposure.

The point is that the majority will follow what they were raised in and hold fast to that. If you had been born into a family and raised in Japan, Iran, or India odds are you would be believing something different from what you do today. This is why you see specific religions as being prominent in different countries. It's likely you were born into a Christian household, or at least at some point in your life you were influenced by another Christian, thus this is what you know to be true.

Unless someone becomes convinced that what they have learned to be true in the past is incorrect, or they don't have truly strong beliefs one way or another to begin with, or as sometimes has been seen they are persecuted until they "believe", they are unlikely to be converted.

I would assume that you are so certain of your belief in Christianity that no one would be able to sway you to believe otherwise... so holds true for many people of other faiths.

Many religions teach that their way is the only way to God, but others see a bigger picture. One where different religions, faiths, and beliefs are presented to humanity in the way they can understand and accept for where they happen to be in the world.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

The idea of two equal faiths having mutually opposed tenets is irrational. There can be only one absolute truth, without which we would have a schizophrenic God.

The argument that takes the form; “one religion is as good as another;” is a notion that is terribly illogical. Given any two denominations if either one holds one or more mutually contradictory fundamental truths (without the conflict they wouldn't be different denominations), since both can't be true, one or both must be wrong. Since religion shouldn't teach error in faith, then these two religions can only be equal when in error. The religion without an error is said to represent God's reveled truth and as such is the one, true, universal faith.

JoeT

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They are opposed tenets when you believe only one to be true. For a Christian, believing Jesus is the Son of God does not oppose someone else's teaching that Jesus was a great teacher for example. As a Christian, that is your truth, as it should be according to the teachings of the Christian religion. It does not, however, negate the truth of someone else; it does not make someone any less Christian to accept that others will hold different beliefs.

While there certainly are some differences in the tenets of various religions, there are also many similarities... especially in regard to mankind. I would think God would be able to discern what is in someone's heart and mind.

Many denomonations do hold different truths. For example, many do not believe Catholics to be Christians, partly because of their worship of Mary. When someone should be baptised brings about questions. How much is free will and how much is preordained comes into question. The positions women are allowed to serve will vary among denominations. Some denominations teach sacraments, others do not. Homosexuality is viewed differently among different denominations. So which are the correct truths? Who decides?

Someone's views on what may constitute an error in faith will obviously be determined by what their particular religion teaches.

Doula,
Where have you been all my life? Your posts are exactly what I have been trying to say to my fundamentalist friends and family. It tends to get emotional because they are so deeply rooted in believing their beliefs are the only TRUE beliefs. I've tried to convey all the things you have mentioned, but it never comes out as cool, calm, and collective as you have done here. The next time this comes up, I may use some of your words.
Imagine the peace and acceptance that could run rampant if we all had the same attitude toward differences that you do.

Doula,
Please get this straight.
Catholics do NOT worship Mary.
They worship God only.
They hold her in high esteem because God chose her to be the mother of His son and her son, Jesus, also did.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Doula,
Please get this straight.
Catholics do NOT worship Mary.
They worship God only.
They hold her in high esteem because God chose her to be the mother of His son and her son, Jesus, also did.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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I was merely repeating what I have heard and that is that some Christians do not believe Catholics to be Christians for various reasons, one being that they pray to Mary through the Hail Mary. To some, this is considered as worshiping Mary.

The point of mentioning this was to show that even within the Christian religion you will find differences of opinion as to what is truth and what isn't. You find the same disagreement in regard to Mormonism.

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

I was merely repeating what I have heard and that is that some Christians do not believe Catholics to be Christians for various reasons, one being that they pray to Mary through the Hail Mary. To some, this is considered as worshiping Mary.

The point of mentioning this was to show that even within the Christian religion you will find differences of opinion as to what is truth and what isn't. You find the same disagreement in regard to Mormonism.

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To non-Catholics, praying to Mary is the same as worshipping her, i.e. treating her as a god who can deliver from evil and rain down blessings.

Yes, to clearify, those that teach that Catholics worship Mary have never studied and do not know what the church teaches, or far worst they know but wish to spread lies. There is a large anti catholic movement for some reason as there are anti mormon movements, There are some hate groups that pretend to be christian that even print tracts against various christians that don't teach along some guide lines. These type of hate groups do nothing but to confuse those that have never had the chance or taken the time to study the acutal facts.

Asking Mary to pray or act on your behalf, or Peter or James or any of the Saints is to a Catholic no different than asking your church group to pray for you, to a Catholic, since to a Catholic, all of the Church both here and in heaven are all part of the Church,

Mary has no spcial powers but does have the ability as we all do, to petition christ to listen to a request.

And for some issues, things are fairly simple, some practices, are a matter of wording, and the importance a group holds it.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

To non-Catholics, praying to Mary is the same as worshipping her, i.e., treating her as a god who can deliver from evil and rain down blessings.

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How very odd. Are they unaware of the ancient distinction between veneration and worship? Do they have a problem with intercessory prayer in general? Do they never ask those who are especially pious or devout to pray for them? (The criticism has never made much sense to me.)

Not all non-Catholics have a problem with this. Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, and many Anglicans pray to Mary. It's really just Protestants, or rather, some Protestants who have a problem with this very, very ancient practice.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

How very odd. Are they unaware of the ancient distinction between veneration and worship? Do they have a problem with intercessory prayer in general? Do they never ask those who are especially pious or devout to pray for them? (The criticism has never made much sense to me.)

Not all non-Catholics have a problem with this. Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, and many Anglicans pray to Mary. It's really just Protestants, or rather, some Protestants who have a problem with this very, very ancient practice.

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"Just some Protestants" pray to Mary (via the rosary) to intercede for them. I see. What about the other non-Catholics, i.e. Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, etc.

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

They are opposed tenets when you believe only one to be true. For a Christian, believing Jesus is the Son of God does not oppose someone else's teaching that Jesus was a great teacher for example. As a Christian, that is your truth, as it should be according to the teachings of the Christian religion. It does not, however, negate the truth of someone else; it does not make someone any less Christian to accept that others will hold different beliefs. While there certainly are some differences in the tenets of various religions, there are also many similarities....especially in regard to mankind. I would think God would be able to discern what is in someone's heart and mind.

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Then all truth is relative? Next time you get a speeding ticket tell the cop that you can drive safely at 70-mph even if the posted speed limit is 50-mph. After all, speed is relative. A simpler example; how much is 2+2. What would keep us from using Doula-Math and decide that all algorithms equal whatever feels good at the time. Let's say today is a '5' day; thus 2+2=5 according to Doula-Math? Can I conclude from this that if you ask for change of a 5 dollar bill, I can give you two pars of two one dollar bills? Come to think of it I like this. Let's do some more “relative” math with real money!

There is but one Truth. That truth is absolute. To say that truth is relative to the observer creates absolute pandemonium, both in a theological sense and in nature. To say that God reveals one truth to you and another truth to me is relativism. How many truths do you think there are? There is only one truth, whether we are capable of understanding that truth is not material. We know that since God exists is creation demonstrates that truth exists, its immutable, its eternal, it is spiritual, unconstrained by time, and superior to man's law. From which we can conclude that “not only that truth is in [God], but that [God] is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth. “ St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Prima Q, 15 a5” (see also https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1376851 )

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Many denomonations do hold different truths. For example, many do not believe Catholics to be Christians, partly because of their worship of Mary. When someone should be baptized brings about questions. How much is free will and how much is preordained comes into question. The positions women are allowed to serve will vary among denominations. Some denominations teach sacraments, others do not. Homosexuality is viewed differently among different denominations. So which are the correct truths? Who decides?

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Yes, many faiths hold different truths, and all but one of them is wrong. Whether certain Christians hold that Catholicism is not Christian isn't relevant. I don't recall reading anywhere in the Scriptures where we are told to take a poll and decide what's right and what's wrong. Again, whether you recognize it or not, there is only one truth in faith. You can read my comments as arrogance or haughtiness (and I'm sure it does seem that way – relatively speaking), it still doesn't alter the truth – truth still remains immutable and absolute. The decision has been made for us by Christ. Christ is the founder on which Peter and the remaining Apostles are the foundation on which the Church is built.

Fr_Chuck and Fred responded to the Mary comment, so I won't respond here.

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Someone's views on what may constitute an error in faith will obviously be determined by what their particular religion teaches.

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Again this is a true statement. Even still, it doesn't change “Truth”. It remains as it was, as it is, and as it will be; one and the same immutable and absolute truth.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

My point is (and I do have one) is that it is almost universally accepted (***perhaps "believed" is a better word***) that Catholics, who revere and pray to Mary, are considered worshippers of her and equate her with God. I live in a very culturally diverse area. I'll take a poll (random sample) and get back to you.

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It was once almost universally accepted that the sun orbits the earth. So what? People are often ill-informed and opinionated *at the same time*.

JoeT, WHAT kind of proof do you have that there is only one truth and it just happens to be yours? What the bible says doesn't count so PLEASE don't start with endless verses of scripture. Unless you also have proof that the bible is the only book of truth. But then you've got all those rewrites and everything, so how reliable could that be even if it was the truth in the beginning?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

It was once almost universally accepted that the sun orbits the earth. So what? People are often ill-informed and opinionated *at the same time*.

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Precisely! So then why all the opinionated and ill-informed people regarding Mary's position? Millions?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Precisely! So then why all the opinionated and ill-informed people regarding Mary's position? Millions?

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You've lost me. I have no idea what you're on about. I'm out.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

A simpler example; how much is 2+2. What would keep us from using Doula-Math and decide that all algorithms equal whatever feels good at the time. Let’s say today is a ‘5’ day; thus 2+2=5 according to Doula-Math? Can I conclude from this that if you ask for change of a 5 dollar bill, I can give you two pars of two one dollar bills? Come to think of it I like this. Let’s do some more “relative” math with real money!

There is but one Truth. That truth is absolute. To say that truth is relative to the observer creates absolute pandemonium, both in a theological sense and in nature. To say that God reveals one truth to you and another truth to me is relativism. How many truths do you think there are? There is only one truth, whether or not we are capable of understanding that truth is not material. We know that since God exists is creation demonstrates that truth exists, its immutable, its eternal, it is spiritual, unconstrained by time, and superior to man’s law. From which we can conclude that “not only that truth is in [God], but that [God] is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth. “ St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Prima Q, 15 a5” (see also https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1376851 )



Yes, many faiths hold different truths, and all but one of them is wrong. Whether or not certain Christians hold that Catholicism is not Christian isn’t relevant. I don’t recall reading anywhere in the Scriptures where we are told to take a poll and decide what’s right and what’s wrong. Again, whether you recognize it or not, there is only one truth in faith. You can read my comments as arrogance or haughtiness (and I’m sure it does seem that way – relatively speaking), it still doesn’t alter the truth – truth still remains immutable and absolute. The decision has been made for us by Christ. Christ is the founder on which Peter and the remaining Apostles are the foundation on which the Church is built.

Fr_Chuck and Fred responded to the Mary comment, so I won’t respond here.



Again this is a true statement. Even still, it doesn’t change “Truth”. It remains as it was, as it is, and as it will be; one and the same immutable and absolute truth.

JoeT

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Yes, 2+2= 4... as does 3+1... @@+@@... and 1+1+1+1. They are all true, just expressed differently.

Back to my original point, the truth of one person may not be the truth of another. If you were born and raised in a country such as India, for example, you would very likely believe something else to be the truth. Certainly there will be exceptions, but it is likely that most people believe what they do because that is how they were raised.

Of course you feel your beliefs are the truth... as you should.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Precisely! So then why all the opinionated and ill-informed people regarding Mary's position? Millions?

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Because of the work of many hate groups that work hard on spreading lies about the catholic church for one. The millions of papers, tracts and books they push. And of course since they don't use icons many people are sadly just not educated enough to know the difference. They accept easy to believe myths instead of learning the truth.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Because of the work of many hate groups that work hard on spreading lies about the catholic church for one. The millions of papers, tracts and books they push. And of course since they don't use icons many people are sadly just not educated enough to know the difference. They accept easy to beleive myths instead of learning the truth.

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I don't think it has anything much to do with hate groups. It was completely accepted by my Protestant church body when I was growing up that anyone saying the rosary and praying to Mary was, for all intents and purposes, worshipping her. Catholic churches always had statues and paintings of her, more obvious sometimes than those of Jesus. There was/is an entire cult around her -- Mariology it was/is called. Protestants called it Mariolatry.

There was no way to learn the truth except to ask an area priest, and, of course, back in the '50s, no self-respecting Protestant asked questions of a Catholic priest. There just wasn't any kind of fellowship back then. The Protestant Reformers did think that Catholics were wrong to invoke Mary as a mediator or to intervene. The doctrines of Immaculate Conception and Mary's Bodily Assumption into Heaven gave further reason for Protestants to think Mary was considered to be more than just a human, and was close to being a god.

Hate, no. Ignorance, yes. I'm glad churches and denominations and people of various beliefs now feel much more comfortable sharing their ideas and values.

Well what you call common knowledge was taught that way by someone, they either knew better or were talking uneducated, merely many thinking does not make it true.

But in fact there are many groups that publish tracts and give them out by the 1000's every day spreading the lies. And the people will not accept the truth when told, not because they eve know the teachings only because that was what they were taught,

So many churches teach lies about the catholic church, this is not uncommon

But hate, yes there is one publishing group I can think of for sure, they sell and give out 10's of thousands of tracts a day with nothing but hate for catholics and mormons mixed in with some for salvation.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

But then you've got all those rewrites and everything, so how reliable could that be even if it was the truth in the beginning?

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I don't understand what you are saying - rewrites and everything?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I don't understand what you are saying - rewrites and everything?

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You think the text in the bible is in it's original form? What about the different translations, the thousands of years, the different interpretations

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

But hate, yes there is one publishing group I can think of for sure, they sell and give out 10's of thousands of tracts a day with nothing but hate for catholics and mormons mixed in with some for salvation.

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Why do so many go to the trouble to spread hate for the catholic church?

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

well what you call common knowledge was taught that way by someone, they either knew better or were talking uneducated, merely many thinking does not make it true.

But in fact there are many groups that publish tracts and give them out by the 1000's every day spreading the lies. And the people will not accept the truth when told, not because they eve know the teachings only because that was what they were taught,

So many churches teach lies about the catholic church,, this is not uncommon

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Protestant seminaries taught their ministerial students that it was Mariolatry, etc. and when those students became ministers, they carried those ideas into congregations. There was no hate in any of it; that's just how it was. I never heard hate preached.

Wondergirl,
If I asked you to pray to god for me, would you?
"Pray" is another way of saying "ask". Those two words have same meaning.
So if I pray to you to pray for me to God am I worshiping you and equating you to God.
No, of course not.
We Catholics and others ask Many (whom we believe is one of the many saints in heaven) to pray for us. We DO NOT worship her no matter what others may think or say.
The Rosary prayer which has been mentioned here is an example.
In it are the words "pray for us".
There is no worship for Mary in that prayer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
If I asked you to pray to god for me, would you?
"Pray" is another way of saying "ask". Those two words have same meaning.
So if I pray to you to pray for me to God am I worshiping you and equating you to God.
No, of course not.
We Catholics and others ask Many (whom we believe is one of the many saints in heaven) to pray for us. We DO NOT worship her no matter what others may think or say.
The Rosary prayer which has been mentioned here is an example.
In it are the words "pray for us".
There is no worship for Mary in that prayer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Where were you back in 1955, Fred? (My posts were all past tense, not 2009 thinking.)

Wondergirl,
I was here on earth in 1955.
Why do you ask?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
I was here on earth in 1955.
Why do you ask?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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I wasn't talking about NOW, Fred, but about earlier thinking among Protestants.

Never mind

Akoue,
I was a Lutheran for over 30 years.
Now you know why I started looking into other faiths including the Catholic.
So much hate made me wonder why when some of my best friends were Catholic or others and they were very nice people.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
If I asked you to pray to god for me, would you?
"Pray" is another way of saying "ask". Those two words have same meaning.
So if I pray to you to pray for me to God am I worshiping you and equating you to God.
No, of course not.
We Catholics and others ask Many (whom we believe is one of the many saints in heaven) to pray for us. We DO NOT worship her no matter what others may think or say.
The Rosary prayer which has been mentioned here is an example.
In it are the words "pray for us".
There is no worship for Mary in that prayer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Why would you want Mary to pray for you when you can just pray directly to God yourself? What is the point?

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Originally Posted by cozyk

Why would you want Mary to pray for you when you can just pray directly to God yourself? What is the point?

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Christians believe prayer is a powerful thing, and, the more prayer there is for you or for something, the more hopeful they are God will intervene somehow. That's why you will hear people say, especially during an illness or a family tragedy, "Pray for me" or "Keep me in your prayers."

In fact, I read somewhere recently that people who are prayed for have faster and better recoveries. Would have to check that...

cozyk,
Mary the mother of Jesus has more influence than I do.
I also pray to Jesus and God the trinity.
I have also asked other saints to pray for me.
Saints are at the throne of God in heaven.
Therefore they are holy, pure and closer to God than I am.
Asking saints to pray for us is part of the communion of saints.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl,
Yes that is true.
The more payer the better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred