 |
Maggie 3,
That is interesting.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it.
But as you know from my precious posts on this I believe that there is an eternal heavenly Kingdom of God and a temporal Kingdom of God on this planet.
Also that they are spiritually connected.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, First let me say it is nice to hear from you directly..Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Christ was raised to heaven, and the Holy Spirit was to come ( John 16:7-14 ) So the presence of God is always with us through the Holy Spirit.
Now if you read the scripture in Ephesians, we are not strangers or foreigners to the knowledge of Christ, because we have fellowship with the saints known within the house of God. And this fellowship was built upon the foundation of the apostles, with Christ being the corner stone. That is why Christ is the Rock. Within this fellowship known within God's house gathering unto the Lord, we grow into a holy temple that is constructed for an habitation of God = "The Holy Spirit"
Eph 2:19 Therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
We understand that where two or more are gathered together the Lord is with us.."The Holy Spirit"
John the Baptists said it well, John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
He is saying one standeth among you who you do not see by sight. This is faith... we are to believe.
The Holy Spirit was with Christ when he walked the earth. The Holy Spirit is with us in Newness of Life/Baptism..
Can our minds be deceived from the simplicity of Christ? I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.(Jhn 14:6)
For we walk by faith, not by sight ( 2 Cr 5:7)
sndbay,
Thanks, I agree with some of what you said...
But...
It is clear that Jesus was talking to Peter when He called Simon "Peter" the rock on which Jesus would build his assembly (Church) and Jesus gave Peter the keys to His kingdom.
It had a spiritual connection for Jesus told Peter that what he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven and what was bound on earth would be bound in heaven.
There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is the corner stone of The Church He built on the Rock of Peter.
Thus Jesus along with the Holy Spirit are always with that Church.
It is Jesus Christ's bride on earth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Maggie, sndbay, et al:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
I appreciate the hard work this response reflects, But, I don’t see how a discussion on the Trinity is relevant to the ‘Kingdom.’ If the next paragraph was to make the connection, I missed it.
I believe in Christ, the incarnate Word, who is the Second person of the Trinity. He doesn’t bring truth, rather He IS Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
I realize I need to know the beginning of the Kingdom of God, but you haven’t made the argument here. I agree that baptism is entrance into the Kingdom. When Christ was baptized would he not have entered the Kingdom. Then wasn’t the Kingdom on earth when Christ walked the earth? When did it leave? Why did the Apostles continue to teach about the Kingdom after his death if the Kingdom ascended to heaven? If the Kingdom ascended into heaven then why in the end times are we told that, “The kingdom of this world is become our Lord's and his Christ's, and he shall reign for ever and ever. Amen.” Apoc 11:15 If this Kingdom presented to God is OF THE WORLD at the end of time, would we not expect to see it today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
The Kingdom of God is both spiritual as well as earthly. If we are born again in the vein of Nicodemus we are being baptized, at this time we enter into the Kingdom, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost [baptism], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
What of the Kingdom of God in the Old Testament? Does it still exist in the form of Jewish nation? Then is there a Kingdom of God for the Jews, and a Kingdom of God that belongs to Christ and a Kingdom of Heaven? Now we’re up to three kingdoms.
JoeT
JoeT777,
That is an interesting thought that The Jews may have a separate Kingdom of God.
Right now I think not.
But there are theologians who believe that the Jews have a separate salvation that do Christians.
In that case there MAY be a third Kingdom of God just for them.
It is a question that now I must ponder on more.
Thanks,
Peace and kindness,
Fred
JoeT777
Now THAT is an interesting thought, that there may be three Kingdoms of God including one for the Jews.
Personally I don't think that there is one for them separately.
I think that their Kingdom was transformed to that of Christ the King.
Some theologians believe that the Jews have a separate salvation than that of Christians.
In that case perhaps there MAY be a third Kingdom of God for them.
It is a question for me now to ponder more about.
Different ways to heaven and Christ are deceptions! Opah talks of this type of deception in what she believes. It is wrong!
Remember what Paul feared:( 2 Cr 5:7)
With prayer and faith, lovingly we remain in Christ' strength and can not be deceived. And we avoid what Paul spoke of in fear ---> 2 Cr 11:2-3 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Acknowledge the simplicity of Christ being in 1. His voice (Jhn 10:27); 2. I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.(Jhn 14:6); 3. For we walk by faith, not by sight
Otherwise you are trying to serve two masters which can not be done.. Matthew 6:24; Luke16:13
The Rock is Christ, any other would be the church doing as Paul feared...
Not being as a virgin to the wedding of Christ..
Looking in the mist of another is a trespass against Christ, and Him being the groom to the bride.
And the Church is married to Christ .. Right?
As the bride of Christ the church can not commit adualtary... It can not service two masters or two husbands.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Peter himself is shown to say in scripture: I am a man also!
Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
And we must remember that Deu 31 says that the Song of Moses was written to bear witness against what would be taught that is false.. Deu 32 we find the Song of Moses...
sndbay,
I told you what I believe and I continue to stand by that.
It is clear that Jesus was talking to and about Peter being The Rock.
Thanks anyway,
Fred
Joe I will try to say this in away you can understand. You can
not separate the trinity, the Godhead or the kingdon of God. Let me say this, I am a
wife, mother and teacher, I just told you what I am. This is how I see the Kingdom of God. God is three persons in one, and God being God does not tell us every little
detail but He does teaches us what we need to know if we keep seeking, and are born again to receive it. When you enter the Kingdon of God you need the Father, Son
and Holy Spirit. This is what the kingdom of God is. When Jesus died on the cross
His physical body died, His spirit did not die. He rose from the dead in a spiritual
body that His followers could recognize. God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit can not be killed off or separated. You can not change God's ways or add to or take away, being a
child of God is being obedient then we can live in the Kingdom of God .It is sin that
keeps us separated from God. Joe have you been born again? If not the spirit cannot teach you His ways , Our eyes are open when we are born again and then we are able to see the truth.
Let me know if this helps you.
Maggie 3
Maggie 3,
Good post of sorts.
Jesus rose with a glorified body like we will have in heaven.
Jesus could and did eat, He could be touched. He could also pass though locked doors and appear many miles away almost instantly.
That is what His glorified body could do.
I think that Joe was born again of spirit and water as the bible says.
Yes the Godhead is three persons in one and inseparable. I think Joe knows that.
Another way of trying to understand the trinity is the fact that we all are a trinity of body, mind and spirit which each has a different task but they all work together.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Thanks Fred, you are right about Jesus and His glorified body, want it be great when we have ours. We will keep on working for the Lord until He comes. The more I learn of Him
The joy grows. Ever so ofen I tell my husband, I love the lord so much I can hardly stand it, and that the way it goes with me!
Maggie 3
Yes, thank you for asking. I am “born again” through baptism where, as an infant, I received one of many graces of faith. In cooperation with this grace, and combined with my life's experience, it has taught me perseverance in fear and trembling of Chist's promise of redemptions. (Cf. Phil 2:12) Have you received the real presence of Christ? Its only here do we come to live in Christ. (Cf John 6:55-59) Without the real presence of Christ the spirit cannot teach you His ways, our eyes are open when we are born again and then we are able to see the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
JoeT
Joe,
Very good answer.
In my case I have often partaken of the real body and blood of Christ.
It gives me great joy and thankfulness that Jesus has provided that way to become one with Him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Thank you Joe and Fred. When we experience the love and joy
Of the Lord it strengthens us to overcome our trials in life. We can understand what
Kept the Lord and His followers going, though all the pain and suffering they endured.
There is power and strength in His love and joy . This is why in Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the greatest Commandement In the law ? "
Jesus said to them, " you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind." " This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: " you shall love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these 2 commandments." Love always brings joy. This sounds like the Kingdom of God to me.
Maggie 3
Maggie 3,
Yes I do believe that love is greatly in all Kingdoms of God on heaven and earth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Thanks for your kind words Maggie. Humm, you did know I’m Catholic? But, you can’t take’m back now; it’s too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
My comments here should have reflected that, and should explain why I believe Christ’s Kingdom is here on earth. We call it the Catholic Church.
JoeT
JoeT777,
Yes, from your many posts it could, should, have been obvious.
The same for me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I thought you were, Joe and Fred. I go to a spirit filled,
Non-denominational church and have for over 30 years and have learned so much.
My husband was raised in the catholic church and we have friends that attend there.
I know the Lord looks at the heart and not the name of a church. We all need
Each other to learn, no one knows it all, but God does. "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding" Pro.3-5 As we trust in God with all our heart, we will be able to keep on working in health and happiness for long years
To come. I am 77 years young and on pastoral care at our church. My husband will be
83 in April and is a chaplain at our hospital here in town. Our joy in life is serving
The Lord. " In Him we live, move, and have our being". Acts17-28
"I can do all things though Christ which strengthenenth me." Phil 4-13
"Thou shalt guide me with Thy counsel, and afterward receive me to Glory" PS. 73-24
We are working for the glory of the Lord, in the Kingdom of God. Bless you
Maggie 3
Maggie 3,
Good for you. I'm happy for you and your husband.
I'll be 77 in February and I also serve the Lord as best I can.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Excellent question Joe!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I've been struggling with it since you posted it several weeks ago.
I mostly struggled with #2. I'll answer 1, 3-5 first.
There are several answers to this one. First, the Kingdom of God is within us. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, therefore each of us is the Kingdom of God.Quote:
1. What and where is the Kingdom of God?
Two, the Kingdom of God is the Church. The Church is the Household of God and God is King. Therefore, the Kingdom of God is the Church.
Three, the Kingdom of God is in Heaven, where God reigns.
In Baptism:Quote:
3. How and when do we enter the Kingdom of God?
We are Baptized into the family of God and thererfore into His Kingdom.
Yes, to some extent. The prayer says, "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is the Kingdom of God in a way in which it isn't on earth. See number 1 above.Quote:
4. Do you understand the “Kingdom of God” to be the same as “Kingdom of Heaven?”
They are different only in the sense that those in heaven have already been made perfect.Quote:
5. Or do you hold the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God to be two different Kingdoms?
It differs in what it achieves. In the Old Testament, circumcision made us children of Abraham.Quote:
2. Do we see it in the Old Testament? Does it differ between the Old Testament and the New Testament?
In the New Testament, Baptism makes us children of God, brothers of Jesus.
Sincerely,
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Hi Juan:
I thought I had explained, but it turns out I didn't – and I think my reading connects the Old Testament with the New as well as connecting us with God through Christ. The importance of “God's Kingdom” is that it is a direct connection with the Divine by which we are “ruled” by our faith and love of God. I like to make that connection this way:
We take God's Word as being immutable. Consequently, when God promises Moses a Kingdom we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because it's Old Teastament and the law doesn't apply to the New Covenant. Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly heresiarch; the Jews were to be governed by their priests.
Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Kingdom” building.
Your opinion is valued, so how does this fit with your understanding of Scripture.
JoeT
DeMaria do we agree --->To the extent that the Kingdom of Heaven is as Matthew 22:2 brings to mind. "inheriting", or as being "heirs of the Kingdom"Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
And here on earth God's Kingdom would be with the Holy Spirit within each individual, known as children of God.. Obedience and righteousness (baptized to Newness of Life ) gifted with the Holy Spirit and dead in Christ.
The names and appellatives of "the Church" are never used of the Kingdom (Eph. 1:23; 2:21; 4:4, 16; 5:30. Col. 1:24. 1Tim. 3:15). The privilege of "that Church" which consists of the partakers of "a heavenly calling", Heb. 3:1
Rev. 20:4-6, will be to reign with Christ over the earthly Kingdom, whereas that Kingdom will be "under the whole heaven" (Dan. 7:27).
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. referenced to the New Israel prophesied (Isa 66: 7-14)Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? (Ps 118:22 Acts 4:10-12)
Psalms 118:22-23 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes.
Acts 4:10-11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
1 Peter 2:6-7-8 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.Unto you therefore which believe [He is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
You lost me there. Who dismisses Moses Kingdom?Quote:
Consequently, when God promises Moses a Kingdom we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because it's Old Teastament and the law doesn't apply to the New Covenant.
True. But therein lies the difference.Quote:
Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly heresiarch; the Jews were to be governed by their priests.
Neither the Levitical priests nor even the High Priests could enter behind the Veil. Yet we who are baptized into Christ, even the lowliest of us, exist within the Veil. We are sons in the Son.
Agreed. He went into Hell and released the sons of Abraham to bring them into the land which was promised them so long ago. His Kingdom in Heaven.Quote:
Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one;
Agreed.Quote:
in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant,
Because He is the Messiah and the King of Kings.Quote:
which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King.
Agreed.Quote:
To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense.
I'm Catholic, so no argument. Well, except that:Quote:
However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
I don't see much difference in "nation" or "kingdom". Christ's nation is a Kingdom.Quote:
Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Kingdom” building.
I'd say we agree overall. Except that bit about dismissing Moses' Kingdom I didn't understand at the beginning.Quote:
Your opinion is valued, so how does this fit with your understanding of Scripture.
JoeT
Yes, we are members of the Royal Family, so to speak. We dare to say, "Abba, Father".Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
And here on earth God's Kingdom would be with the Holy Spirit within each individual, known as children of God.. Obedience and righteousness (baptized to Newness of Life ) gifted with the Holy Spirit and dead in Christ.[/quote]
I would say, "alive in Christ". But I agree.
Agreed. We are sons in the Son.Quote:
The names and appellatives of "the Church" are never used of the Kingdom (Eph. 1:23; 2:21; 4:4, 16; 5:30. Col. 1:24. 1Tim. 3:15). The privilege of "that Church" which consists of the partakers of "a heavenly calling", Heb. 3:1
[/quote]Quote:
Rev. 20:4-6, will be to reign with Christ over the earthly Kingdom, whereas that Kingdom will be "under the whole heaven" (Dan. 7:27).
Dan 7
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,
The Kingdom on earth...
shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Shal be absorbed by the Kingdom of heaven.
They will be one and the same Kingdom. That is what Jesus did when He desended into hell and brought the children of Abraham into the heavenly Kingdom. The very same Kingdom which He revealed was "upon you."
Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
To me, its as though we are a Kingdom of one. We are one in Christ Jesus.
John 17
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Does that make sense?
Yes although you are saying it a little differently then what I do. We are with the Holy Spirit made one with Christ. As was Christ with the Holy Spirit one with The Father.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
As (Col 2:9-10-11-12-13-14-15) In Christ dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and we are complete in him.
My reference of dead in Christ is dead to this world (newness of Life) able to raise as He did.
Romans 8:10-11 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Ok, I think I can deal with this.
Joe,
I think that I can also deal with it.
Fred
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:34 PM. |