Don't get me started on Obama. I didn't figure you for a liberal until the discussion on the gay issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Have you and I concluded our discussion here? I couldn't find a response to my last message.
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Don't get me started on Obama. I didn't figure you for a liberal until the discussion on the gay issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Have you and I concluded our discussion here? I couldn't find a response to my last message.
I'm not.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Thanks for derailing my question.
Joe, I do agree with you That one term for the abortion ultra liberal is enough.
I fact it is one to many.
I HOPE your HOPE is fulfilled.
I also HOPE that I am heaven bound.
That HOPE is a firm belief in the words Jesus spoke as recorded in the Holy Bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Hm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
1. You were talking about Obama with someone else.
2. Obama is a liberal, is he not?
3. I simply added my two cents as friendly chit chat. Believe me, if I said what I think about Obama, that would derail the thread.
4. This thread is about "the hope of heaven". Perhaps you've forgotten that you and I traded several messages in the first two pages on this topic. I asked if you and I had concluded our discussion because I might have overlooked a response from you.
In conclusion, I didn't derail your thread. You had already taken a rabbit trail of your own choosing and I attempted to bring the thread back to your OP.
You are going backwards. We already reviewed the context to that and taking a few words out of context is not a proper means of interpretation. If so, then you must also agree that God meant what he said here:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Prov 31:9
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
And plead the cause of the poor and needy.
NKJV
John 7:23-24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NKJV
1 Cor 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
NKJV
The verse that you reference has absolutely nothing to do with salvation when read in context. Even Akoue appears to agree with that. Why do you claim otherwise?
I gave a quote about hope. You picked out one word and chewed on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I wasn't talking with anyone about Obama.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
For anyone who is interested, 1Cor.11.31-32 uses different words, all of which are sometimes translated "judge". Better translations will typically render v.31: "If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment" [ei de heautous DIEKRINOMEN, ouk an EKRINOMETHA]. Then, in v.32, we get "krino" again: "we are judged by the Lord" [KRINOMENOI de hupo [tou] kuriou]--which sounds vaguely reminiscent of 1Cor.4.5.
Akoue has argued over many pages that 1Cor.4.5 does prohibit judgement regarding salvation. He even argued that references to 1Cor.3 do not in any way change the fact the 1Cor.4.5 is prohibiting judgment regarding salvation. As De Maria rightly points out, we are not to render a verdict (or judgment) regarding salvation until the Lord comes; he will render the verdict because he alone knows our hearts and our motives. (See previous post: "we are judged by the Lord".)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Ah, interesting. We did go over this earlier and when I addressed the issue of salvation, you appeared to agree that it has nothing to do with salvation. Perhaps you can show us precisely where this passage refers to salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
While you are at it, you may want to look at the numerous passages throughout scripture where judgments are made regarding the salvation of people, such as this one:
Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
NKJV
Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV
Note that this is past tense, thus God has already saved them, and since Paul says "us", he is including himself.
And this one which clearly shows that Paul judges himself saved in the hope:
Rom 8:24
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
NKJV
I could show you many others, so you have the problem of showing us where the passage in 1 Corinthians speaks of salvation, dealing with the local context (which has been clearly shown to not say what you claim), and the wider context of scripture where we find that indeed scripture permits judgments of salvation, including ourselves.
I look forward to your concise and direct response.
I notice you didn't answer my questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes indeed.
I agree that we should NOT judge ourselves OR others about salvation.
My reasons are the bible tells us not to judge that way and the fact that we do not KNOW what is in the hearts of others.
Jesus does and will know and the bible says the He WILL BE the judge of that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
According to this quote it indicates that you said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Therefore unless someone else is using your "Wondergirl" profile, you were talking about how Obama uses the term "hope" theologically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
"Hope is a theologically grounded notion, and I think that perhaps is especially true as Sen. Obama uses it. Hope would have to be distinguished from optimism, which is supposing things will turn out well. Hope is daring to envision something that is beyond either optimism or planning. It is an articulation of a vision, and, as the Bible says, without a vision, the people perish... [Obama's hope] is grounded in a notion that what God intends is justice and mercy and compassion, even if that seems, under current circumstances, to be unrealistic." --Ted Jennings, professor of biblical and constructive theology, Chicago Theological Seminary
But I did - many times in this thread. This is exactly what we have been discussing over the past few days.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Really Fred? Maybe you missed these references (for example)Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
NKJV
Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV
Note that this is past tense, thus God has already saved them, and since Paul says "us", he is including himself. And this one which clearly shows that Paul judges himself saved in the hope:
Rom 8:24
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
NKJV
I could show you many others, so you have the problem of showing us where the passage in 1 Corinthians speaks of salvation, dealing with the local context (which has been clearly shown to not say what you claim), and the wider context of scripture where we find that indeed scripture permits judgments of salvation, including ourselves.
I do agree that judging salvation of others is something best left to God, but there are cases where it is appropriate. In the case of ourselves, scripture is very clear.
I await any verse which says in context that we are not to judge our salvation.
No, you didn't. But I'll let you try again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Don't change the subject. Lets go back to what you posted. What does,
In fact, I do not even judge myself. mean?
What does:
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes
Mean?
There's no getting around those verses. We are not to judge ourselves saved. Jesus will do that.
I did actually. We have discussed these points to death over the past several days. I invite you to read over the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
You are going backwards. We already reviewed the context to that and taking a few words out of context is not a proper means of interpretation. If so, then you must also agree that God meant what he said here:
Prov 31:9
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
And plead the cause of the poor and needy.
NKJV
John 7:23-24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NKJV
1 Cor 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
NKJV
The verse that you reference has absolutely nothing to do with salvation when read in context. Even Akoue appears to agree with that. Why do you claim otherwise?
Please read more carefully. Wondergirl said nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The entire quote was from Ted Jennings. The part you put in bold, the "I think that perhaps is especially true as Sen. Obama uses it," are Professor Jennings' words, not mine. The quote was run in the 12/30/08 Chicago Sun-Times.
De Maria,
I expect that Tj3 will continue to dodge those questions.
But I hope I am wrong and he does provide good answers rather that dodge them
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I see that you and De Maria are starting the same old approach that no doubt will once again end up in getting a thread shut down - false accusations, attacks against the person, and trying to repeat to death the same old questions after the points were discussed to death so that things go around in circles.
Talking about things not answered, I note that you ignored my comments back to you:
---------------------
Really Fred? Maybe you missed these references (for example)
Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
NKJV
Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV
Note that this is past tense, thus God has already saved them, and since Paul says "us", he is including himself. And this one which clearly shows that Paul judges himself saved in the hope:
Rom 8:24
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
NKJV
I could show you many others, so you have the problem of showing us where the passage in 1 Corinthians speaks of salvation, dealing with the local context (which has been clearly shown to not say what you claim), and the wider context of scripture where we find that indeed scripture permits judgments of salvation, including ourselves.
I do agree that judging salvation of others is something best left to God, but there are cases where it is appropriate. In the case of ourselves, scripture is very clear.
I await any verse which says in context that we are not to judge our salvation.
Tj3.
I told the truth as I saw it.
Yiu talked about judging other things but NOT about Judging Salvation. GOD IS THE ONLY JUDGE OF THAT.
So you see you continued to doge the questions as asked, as I expected.
I ignored you post to me because the scripture you posted had nothing yo do with Who IS the judge of who is save and not.
I notice that once again you complained about the truth and in error accused of being attacked. I did no such thing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
False accusations get you nowhere.
I am not looking for YOUR truth - I am looking for truth from God's word. The verses that I posted (copied once again below) make it clear who is judging. If you claim otherwise, tell me specifically how Paul and others knew that they and others were saved?
Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
NKJV
Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV
Note that this is past tense, thus God has already saved them, and since Paul says "us", he is including himself. And this one which clearly shows that Paul judges himself saved in the hope:
Rom 8:24
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
NKJV
I could show you many others, so you have the problem of showing us where the passage in 1 Corinthians speaks of salvation, dealing with the local context (which has been clearly shown to not say what you claim), and the wider context of scripture where we find that indeed scripture permits judgments of salvation, including ourselves.
I do agree that judging salvation of others is something best left to God, but there are cases where it is appropriate. In the case of ourselves, scripture is very clear.
I await any verse which says in context that we are not to judge our salvation.
Tj3,
Forget it.
I'm not reading your posts any longer.
Believe as you wish and I will do the same.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Ok, this makes great logic, kill babies that weren't in danger to save babies that were to live. Wow, I'm amazed at the depths of Obama's theology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
With logic such as this, I wonder how long it will take him to figure a way to save social security. Let's see, it'll go something like this; eliminate participants who retire to reduce the government outlays. And next after that, let's eliminate anybody who objects – after all they're just trouble makers.
Silly you say? With such a skewed belief system , any man could justify such actions – don't say it can't happen – history shows us just how easy it is.
JoeT
Joe,
Please don't give them any more ideas.
The one you mentioned about SS might just happen because some mentioned it.
Have you noticed that Obama has yet to prove that he is a born American citizen?
The case is now before the Supreme Court who must act before inauguration day.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Tom
So the idea is to refuse to engage with the questions of others while insisting that others write book reports for you. That's okay; I'm accommodating myself to the double-standard.
Yes, in the passages you cite Paul does use the past (or aorist, which is more vague than its English translation) tense. Here are a few where he uses the future tense: Rom.9.13; 1Cor.3.15, 5.5, 7.16. At Phil.2.12 we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (which certainly suggests that it isn't a fait accompli). So is Paul contradicting himself?
No, of course not. But unlike you, Paul does not regard salvation as a hit-and-run event. What do I mean?
The act of salvation that was begun by Christ during his ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection, was and is salvific. But that act is not fully achieved in each one of us until Christ's return. Now you have said elsewhere that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for salvation. And that's partly true: Partly, because we have to respond to that sacrifice, and if we don't we aren't saved. I think you'd agree with that. So the full realization of salvation in you or me turns on something about us, a response we offer to Christ's sacrifice. If that were not the case, then all of humanity would be saved just by virtue of the fact that Christ died. But this is not what Scripture teaches; there are those who will not be saved. The point De Maria and I have been making is that we, none of us, are not in a position to know who is who, for the reason given at 1Cor.4.5: Only the Lord can see the hearts and motives of men and women. We can search our hearts, and those of others, but the fact that we do not find anything "against" us does not guarantee that we aren't self-deceived. As Paul says, "I do not thereby stand acquitted".
Our response to Christ's salvific act on the Cross isn't punctuated in the way you might think. The mere fact that I have faith at time T1 doesn't guarantee that I will have faith at time T4. And the fact that I think I have faith at time T1 doesn't guarantee that I in fact do. I may be self-deceived. (And self-deception is something Paul thinks we should worry about--fear and trembling, remember.) So the act of sacrifice, the salvific act is an ongoing act (salvation history, not salvation hour). This is why Paul tells us that Christ's gift to us is "everlasting encouragement and good hope" (1Thess.2.16). My salvation, and yours, is not yet fully attained. This is why Paul uses both the past, present, and future tenses when talking about salvation. (Recall that Paul also uses the present tense, I am "being saved": it's an ongoing process.) So I am saved, I am in the process of being saved, and I hope I will be saved. If this strikes you as a stumbling-block then that speaks to the fact that you are too wedded to the wisdom of men.
Since each of us has free will, at no time prior to Christ's return can we be guaranteed of salvation. Now, you think differently. You think that salvation is something that one already has. But then Paul wouldn't talk about it in the future tense as well. Moreover, to suppose that would be to remain completely oblivious of Paul's eschatological conception of salvation. This is precisely the problem with cherry-picking verses, and it is why I have repeatedly encouraged you to dig deeply into a small number of them rather than wheeling them out en masse as if to bludgeon your interlocutor. This is not a respectful way of handling sacred Scripture.
Now, at 1Cor.3.15 Paul writes of one who "will be saved". You yourself claimed that 1Cor.3.10-17 is part of the relevant context for understanding 1Cor.4.1-5. Now you mean to say that the fact that salvation is part of the context of 1Cor.3.10-17 has no bearing on 1Cor.4.1-5? That's not only implausible, it's an outright contradiction. This is why I believe that Paul is talking about judging salvation at 4.5.
Now, I'm not going to go through each passage you've cited in turn since you still have not explained/demonstrated/proven, in any detailed way, how my earlier posts discussing 1Cor.3, 4.1-5 are wrong. (And, actually, as I've just shown, Paul's use of the past tense isn't a problem for anything I've said.) If you recall, your responses consisted principally of allusions to "context". I've explained the context and I have explained what St.Paul is saying at considerable length now.
Both De Maria and I have been asking you for quite some time to respond to our posts regarding 1Cor.4.5. In response you have made vague allusions to context and posed further questions of your own. To the casual observer this looks like an evasion. If you believe that perception to be mistaken you would do well to post your responses to our questions. Then, if you'd like to ask further questions of us, that would be perfectly fair of you.
Joe, come one, you're killing me here. This is the "hope" thread. I'm trying to be hopeful. (I'd like to propose that next we have a "wish" thread. Wishing is always easier than hoping.)Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Akoue,
That was well said.
Thanks.
I learned form it.
Happy prosperous New Year,
Fred
But in your own words, you have admitted that you quoted someone who mentioned OBAMA'S use of the term "hope".Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So, it doesn't matter that you quoted Pr. Jennings, YOU brought up Obama. Whether directly or indirectly.
And believe me, if I'd wanted to talk about Obama, I would have participated in the thread on that subject during and after the election. My words, "don't get me started on Obama" indicate that I DON'T want to talk about him in deference to the fact that he is now our President.
Either way, you're barking up the wrong tree.
>Thread Closed<
For the usual reasons.
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