Apparently, Akoue has never groomed a horse and smoothed its forelocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
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Apparently, Akoue has never groomed a horse and smoothed its forelocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Are we the primary products of our genetic heritage and have no choice but to follow our instincts?Quote:
It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"
Are genetic predispositions [ such as to addictions, or depression or premature heart disease ] something that we should just resign ourselves to and not attempt to ask God to help guide us ?
I may not have to deal with homosexual urges, but as a married male should I just give in to my inborn desire to be with other women?
G&P
Oh, foreLOCKS! See, all this talk about the Law and I somehow got it into my head you were talking about fore-something-else. (Actually, it just sounded funny in my head.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
On which days do you choose to be homosexual? I want to be here then. Or do you always follow your instinct to be straight?Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
And my autistic son would love to tell you a few things about genetic heritage.
It never crossed my mind, what you were thinking. I'm a girl and don't think about stuff like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
that's just us. Previous translators and interpreters have also used THEIR idea of what God was really trying to say.
What happened to the tolerant loving person you claim to be?
I am a Catholic and I follow the interpretation of the Church. That interpretation has been the same for the past 2000 years. And for the Old Testament the same for the past 7000 years at least.
The problem is that you don't like that interpretation and you want us to change it to fit your beliefs.
What am I intolerant of? I just pointed out that there are different interpretations of words in the bible. Who is to say who is right? The church? That's just people too. I don't need to change it to fit my needs because I don't take it as the "be all and end all" of instructions for life in the first place. My conscience and my "higher power" dictate my choices and what I believe my god expects of me.
Still you not tolerating my belief. The Church has interpreted the Scriptures the same since the Scriptures were written. In fact, the Church wrote the NT so they very well know what it means and explain it.
It's not that I don't tolerate your belief. I just don't agree with your belief. "The church" this and "the church" that. "The church" is just "the go between". You don't need the church to communicate with your god. Here's a question for you. What if you had never been exposed to a church or a bible? Would you still have a moral compass that you lived by? Or does all your sense of right and wrong come from a book aka the bible or "the church"?
All men are born with a fallen nature. Adulterers and fornicators have to resist the very same lustful impulses.
Until you or I am born with the desire to be with the same sex partner, we have no right to assume that adulterers and fornicators are in the same boat as homosexuals.
Because you don't understand the Scriptures nor the power of God:
You got that right. Especially the part about understanding scripture. Like you said earlier, OT, 7000 years ago and the NT, 2000 years ago.. Actually, I think it takes a lot of audacity for anyone to claim they do draw the right conclusion from it's writings. That is why I just go straight to the big guy and cut out the middle man.
Us?
I was raised as a christian but I am finding it more and more difficult to claim that title with pride.
Quote:
It behooves us as Christians to be honest about what is sin and what is life. And to teach them how to get on the road to life.
It behooves us as Christians to avoid those who prefer to revel in their sin.
Sin? says you.
And they shall bear a child. That is the one flesh in which they are one. The child born of that union is the two made one. Every child is a living symbol of a man's love for his wife and the wife's love for her husband.
__________________
Every child is NOT a symbol of a man's love for his wife. Some children are a product of two teenagers in a back seat, or the result of a rape, or a total accident, or the product of two people thinking they can save their sorry marriage by having a baby.
That statement is just not true.
Who doesn't revel in their sin when revel also means do it over and over again, maybe repenting in between but never really stopping. We are all sinners. Should we avoid each other--or be like Jesus, i.e. Christlike?Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
We believe it does. Because of our fallen nature, we all have to learn how to do good. Without God's revelation, we search in shadows for the Good which is God. But God has revealed Himself through His Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
HI believe you are wrong. Heterosexual deviants wake up saying exactly that. And homosexuality is simply the lust for homosexual relations.Quote:
omosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"
That Law has been fulfilled.Quote:
Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.
Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Being autistic is not a sin and therefore not comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Homosexuals have a choice whether to engage in their lust or not.
Did Jesus teach the adultress to revel in her sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Oh. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Yes.Quote:
Who is to say who is right? The church?
We believe they are people guided by the Holy Spirit.Quote:
That's just people too.
[quote] I don't need to change it to fit my needs because I don't take it as the "be all and end all" of instructions for life in the first place. My conscience and my "higher power" dictate my choices and what I believe my god expects of me.
Ultimately, our conscience is our guide. My conscience tells me to follow the Church.
And that is my point. When we disagree, you call it intolerance. When you disagree, you call it freedom of conscience or speech or whatever. Its a sin for us but its a virtue for you. Double standard is what it is.Quote:
It's not that I don't tolerate your belief. I just don't agree with your belief.
Thats your opinion. Your opinion this, your opinion that. Disregard your opinion and accept mine.Quote:
"The church" this and "the church" that. "The church" is just "the go between". You don't need the church to communicate with your god.
[quote] Here's a question for you. What if you had never been exposed to a church or a bible? Would you still have a moral compass that you lived by? Or does all your sense of right and wrong come from a book aka the bible or "the church"?
I was atheist for approximately 17 years. Therefore I know that my initial contact with religion I didn't understand it and left. But having discovered that God existed, I searched the many purported religions that I knew about and I was thoroughly convinced by the evidence and the teachings of the Catholic Church.
There are many former homosexuals who have repented and become Christians. And many bi-sexuals who have done the same. The account they give parallels sexual lust in every way.Quote:
Until you or I am born with the desire to be with the same sex partner, we have no right to assume that adulterers and fornicators are in the same boat as homosexuals.
I think it takes a lot of audacity for someone born in this century to draw the conclusion that their brand new religion is right and the faith of millions through the centuries is wrong.Quote:
You got that right. Especially the part about understanding scripture. Like you said earlier, OT, 7000 years ago and the NT, 2000 years ago.. Actually, I think it takes a lot of audacity for anyone to claim they do draw the right conclusion from it's writings. That is why I just go straight to the big guy and cut out the middle man.
Don't worry. We don't take any pride in your beliefs either. In fact, we disown them.Quote:
I was raised as a christian but I am finding it more and more difficult to claim that title with pride.
Quote:
Sin says Scripture.Quote:
Sin? says you.
I stand corrected. But every child is a sign of God's love for us. And if men and women continue to take that which is good and use it for evil, it is our own fault. God gave us the wherewithal to choose the good.Quote:
Every child is NOT a symbol of a man's love for his wife. Some children are a product of two teenagers in a back seat, or the result of a rape, or a total accident, or the product of two people thinking they can save their sorry marriage by having a baby.
That statement is just not true.
Sincerely,
Quote:
Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.
That Law has been fulfilled.
Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Huh? I don't get the connection between the hair cut and your statement about "The Law has been fulfilled." bla bla bla.
__________________
"The Law is Written" bla bla bla.?Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
I don't see that in what you quoted.
You took what you wanted from my comment which was:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"
No, they don't. I have several good friends who are homosexual and a sil who is. None of them wake up and decide to be either a homosexual or a heterosexual. It is something in their very bones, not a choice, but who they are to the bottom of their soul.Quote:
I believe you are wrong. Heterosexual deviants wake up saying exactly that. And homosexuality is simply the lust for homosexual relations.
No more could each of them decide to be heterosexual--truly heterosexual with no trace of homosexuality--than you could to become a homosexual with no trace of heterosexuality.
If it is a choice, please choose to be homosexual and have no more heterosexuality left in you. If it works one way, it should work the other. Let me know how it goes.
So some laws in Lev. Are fulfilled, but others, only a chapter away, are not? My understanding is that Jesus fulfilled the entire Law, not just bits and pieces of it. His Law, the New Covenant, now has only two commandments: Love God and love each other.Quote:
That Law has been fulfilled.
Just a very brief clarification.
It is important to distinguish between sexual orientation and sexual acts. The Catholic Church instructs that gays and lesbians, along with unmarried heterosexuals, are to refrain from sexual acts. The Catechism even expressly states that to discriminate against gays on account of their orientation is a sin. But the Church teaches also that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is a grave sin, and this doesn't just apply to adultery, of course. It is the acts, not the orientation, that is the issue. (As Wondergirl says, it seems unlikely that one chooses to be straight or gay. What is a matter of choice is how any of us act on our dispositions, sexual or otherwise--some people have an irascible disposition but train themselves not to act on it, etc.)
Again, just a clarification. I don't mean to suggest that this will settle anything.
I'm not sure what you mean by "you took what you wanted from my comment...".Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
But they decide whether they will act upon their lusts.Quote:
No, they don't. I have several good friends who are homosexual and a sil who is. None of them wake up and decide to be either a homosexual or a heterosexual.
It doesn't matter if that is true, which I don't believe. They still have a choice whether to act upon their lusts or not. Just as we all do.Quote:
It is something in their very bones, not a choice, but who they are to the bottom of their soul.
Precisely. But they don't have to act upon their homosexual urges. Just as heterosexuals don't have to act upon theirs.Quote:
No more could each of them decide to be heterosexual--truly heterosexual with no trace of homosexuality--than you could to become a homosexual with no trace of heterosexuality.
I didn't say that one could choose to have certain urges. But one can choose whether to act upon them. They are temptations to sin. And everyone, every single human being is tempted to sin.Quote:
If it is a choice, please choose to be homosexual and have no more heterosexuality left in you. If it works one way, it should work the other. Let me know how it goes.
That is correct. But keeping the Law of Jesus one fulfills the Law of Moses:Quote:
So some laws in Lev. Are fulfilled, but others, only a chapter away, are not? My understanding is that Jesus fulfilled the entire Law, not just bits and pieces of it. His Law, the New Covenant, now has only two commandments: Love God and love each other.
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Thanks. My point exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
You are celibate (and chaste) then, a monk or a priest?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
So those two verses in Lev. both yours and mine, are no longer valid under the Gospel.Quote:
That is correct. But keeping the Law of Jesus one fulfills the Law of Moses:
Romans 3:31
To Know:Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:2:3; Cont. Gent. I, xiii) provides us with the logic of how we can know of God's existence:
• Motion, i.e. the passing from power to act, as it takes place in the universe implies a first unmoved Mover (primum movens immobile), who is God; else we should postulate an infinite series of movers, which is inconceivable.
• For the same reason efficient causes, as we see them operating in this world, imply the existence of a First Cause that is uncaused, i.e. that possesses in itself the sufficient reason for its existence; and this is God.
• The fact that contingent beings exist, i.e. beings whose non-existence is recognized as possible, implies the existence of a necessary being, who is God.
• The graduated perfections of being actually existing in the universe can be understood only by comparison with an absolute standard that is also actual, i.e. an infinitely perfect Being such as God.
• The wonderful order or evidence of intelligent design which the universe exhibits implies the existence of a supramundane Designer, who is no other than God Himself.
SOURCE: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Existence of God
Consequently, we see once again a right reasoned logic shows us that God is omnipotent as well as omniscient.
JoeT
I am a married man who honors his vows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Didn't I already answer that?Quote:
So those two verses in Lev. both yours and mine, are no longer valid under the Gospel.
Keeping the Law of Jesus one fulfills the Law of Moses:
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
That is only for you to really want to find out if their is a God, If you ask and believe in the holy spirt and ask him to come into your life, you would not what I mean and feel th epowerful presence of the holy sprit in you...Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
So we obey the one (about homosexuality), but not the other (do not cut hair and beard).Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I pray Catholicism will never ensnare my mind and heart with it's rules, judgements, teachings and sureness that because something has been read and believed for 7000 years (plus 2000?) it must be the truth. The only truths you Catholics have have shared here is that you are both condemning and controlling, oh, you teach to save us from one of your many hells. You teach ostracism and fear.
Guess what? Your hells have no meaning for me. Do you "know" that hell exists? Do you have Objective Scientific Evidence?
De Maria, the inquisition did happen. Don't you read history? People, most of whom were women were tortured for days before being burned at the stake. They were called heretics. They served as very frightening examples that opposing the "Church" was quite deadly. Then, after they were dead, the Catholic Church took their land to increase it's own wealth and to prove that avarice is okay, in the name of "The One True God." Now, if they returned the land and possesions and apologized, many would have forgiven them. But they did not have any shame, it would seem. Or perhaps shame is what causes modern-day Catholics to minimize the autrocity.
I know that Holy wars have been fought, innocent people have been either killed or converted so that the Catholic faith would have continued support (and more land.) Both women, witches and heathens/pagans have been treated like dirt for a very many years in order to spread the love of Jesus Christ. Sigh.
You claim to be tolerant while so many call you judgemental. (Do these jeans make me look fat?) You are judgemental, and yes, in those jeans you look like crap.
Didn't black people used to be termed animals, intrinsically stupid and lynch material? Intolerance is an ugly thing; so is shame.
Yeah, that would be ludicrous. So it's a good thing no Church, Catholic or otherwise, says it.Quote:
Originally Posted by simoneaugie
Sadly, yes. But St. Augustine was black, and that hasn't hurt his standing in the Catholic Church.Quote:
Didn't black people used to be termed animals, intrinsically stupid and lynch material? Intolerance is an ugly thing; so is shame.
-------- Withdrawn --------
Akoue, De Maria said, quote:
I am a Catholic and I follow the interpretation of the Church. That interpretation has been the same for the past 2000 years. And for the Old Testament the same for the past 7000 years at least.
If the Catholic Church does not follow this interpretation, I misunderstood his post.
I didn't say Catholicism is anti-black. My point is that Catholicism is anti everything it does not approve of. The disapproval represents an us and them mentality. That is the mind-set of both control through fear and the fear of not being in control.
I suppose there's some truth in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by simoneaugie
Here we disagree. But I see where you're coming from.Quote:
The disapproval represents an us and them mentality. That is the mind-set of both control through fear and the fear of not being in control.
That's an old Catholic custom. Those of us who love Mary, take her name, men or women.Quote:
Originally Posted by cozyk
Examples of famous Catholic men who have taken Mary's name are:
St. Louis "Marie" Grignion de Montfort and St. Alphonsus "Maria" de Liquori.
Should the Catholic Church be against everything that it disagrees with?
Yup.
It does not make sense to agree with what you disagree with.
At least I personally do not agree with that which I disagree with, nor an I FOR that which I disagree with.
I admire The Church for being the same way.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura).
This is what I had in mind too. Like you, I typically find myself to be against the things I am against.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
And it's good to know you made it back safely, Fred. I hope you had a wonderful Christmas.
I said that because Cozyk insinuated that Christians interpret the bible anyway the wind blows. But we don't. At least, Catholics and Orthodox. We have Tradition which anchors our interpretation of the Bible to the Teaching of Jesus Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by simoneaugie
Yes, you misunderstood. We don't follow it because its old. We follow it because Jesus Christ taught it.Quote:
If the Catholic Church does not follow this interpretation, I misunderstood his post.
The Catholic Church approves of that which Jesus said is good and disapproves of that which Jesus said is not good.Quote:
I didn't say Catholicism is anti-black. My point is that Catholicism is anti everything it does not approve of. The disapproval represents an us and them mentality. That is the mind-set of both control through fear and the fear of not being in control.
Very simple.
Not really. Yours is the mindset of one who doesn't like anything or anyone who doesn't agree with you. Therefore, since the Church teaches that certain things are evil which you believe are good, then you fear the Church because you can't control the Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by simoneaugie
It is really you who either hate or fear the Church because you can't control the Church.
May God grant you your prayer.Quote:
Originally Posted by simoneaugie
If that's how you want to take it, fine.Quote:
The only truths you Catholics have have shared here is that you are both condemning and controlling, oh, you teach to save us from one of your many hells. You teach ostracism and fear.
I know that God exists because the wonders of this world and I mean the simplest things, like the little bugs and the leaves on a tree are too wonderful to be here by accident.Quote:
Guess what? Your hells have no meaning for me. Do you "know" that hell exists? Do you have Objective Scientific Evidence?
And knowing that God exists, I believe that He loves us. Otherwise there is no reason for us to be here.
And knowing that He loves us, I believe we have free will. Because love is not coerced.
And knowing that we have free will, I believe hell exists. Because those who "freely choose" not to love God in return will be given what they desire. Eternity without feeling God's love. And that is hell.
Yeah. Don't you? If you do, then perhaps you should ask yourself why the Inquisition happened and read about it from both sides of the story. You will find that history repeats itself and that the Inquisition is happening again. Today it could be called the American Inquisition. Americans are trying to protect themselves from Muslim terrorists and have therefore put many of them in prison without legal representation as criminals of war. Some of them are alleged to be American citizens.Quote:
De Maria, the inquisition did happen. Don't you read history?
So, if America is wrong for protecting her citizens from Muslim terrorists. Then the Catholic countries were wrong for protecting their citizens from Muslim terrorists.
Don't believe the anti-Catholic hype. You're confusing the witch hunts in America with the Inquisitions of Europe. They are different as night and day.Quote:
People, most of whom were women were tortured for days before being burned at the stake. They were called heretics.
The Inquisitions served to protect Catholics from Muslims and their Jewish allies who were trying to elimintate the Church from the earth. And they almost succeeded. And if the Muslims had dispatched the Church, they would then have turned on the Jews as history has proven.Quote:
They served as very frightening examples that opposing the "Church" was quite deadly.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Here, read about the Inquisitions:Quote:
Then, after they were dead, the Catholic Church took their land to increase it's own wealth and to prove that avarice is okay, in the name of "The One True God." Now, if they returned the land and possesions and apologized, many would have forgiven them. But they did not have any shame, it would seem. Or perhaps shame is what causes modern-day Catholics to minimize the autrocity.
Truth About The Spanish Inquisition
Catholic Culture : Library : Truth about the Spanish Inquisition, The
The Inquisitions of History: The Mythology and the Reality | Reverend Brian Van Hove, S.J. | Ignatius Insight
The fact is that the Inquisitions were court cases with court records. And the Church still has those records which can be reviewed. Anti-Catholics have nothing but made up stories like the one you are repeating from thin air.
You are confusing the Catholic Church with other religions. The Catholic Church was spread by the blood of its Martyrs. And those Catholics who did spread Catholicism by the sword did it IN SPITE of the Catholic Church and not because of it.Quote:
I know that Holy wars have been fought, innocent people have been either killed or converted so that the Catholic faith would have continued support (and more land.) Both women, witches and heathens/pagans have been treated like dirt for a very many years in order to spread the love of Jesus Christ. Sigh.
And there you have proven that you are barely rational. In your hatred for anything or anyone Catholic, you don't care whether an argument is reasonable, you simply want to insult.Quote:
You claim to be tolerant while so many call you judgemental. (Do these jeans make me look fat?) You are judgemental, and yes, in those jeans you look like crap.
As for my appearance, I've been thin since my youth. I wasn't even a chubby baby.
I suppose. But that wasn't because of Catholic Teaching. Many of our Popes were black and many of our Saints are black. Although Catholics are human, any Catholics who have ever been racist we so IN SPITE of Catholic teaching and not because of it.Quote:
Didn't black people used to be termed animals, intrinsically stupid and lynch material? Intolerance is an ugly thing; so is shame.
The supreme revelation of God is Jesus Christ Himself,
Jesus was God come to earth. He came in fulfillment of two thousand years of Jewish
History, and His coming was precisely as foretold by the prophets. He came
Among us and showed us what God is like, so we could know Him better.
As He told His disciple Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."
Maggie 3
De Maria,
Right you are.
Many years ago in some ways I felt as simoneaugie does .
Then I started studying The Church and real authentic history.
That turned this one Catholic basher around and I became a Catholic.
That was over thirty years ago and I am still learning more of the truth.
I think that simoneaugie will do as I did for quite while before I became so curious about how wrong The Church was that I started serious study of it.
I seriously doubt the simoneaugie will read the links you provided for fear that they will prove him wrong and never realizing that finding the truth is a great blessing.
It certainly was for me.
By the way I had a wonderful Christmas loving and feasting in three different homes with relatives and friends from the USA and Canada.
Getting home was a bit worry some for is snowed for several hundred miles on the way back.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arura)
Maggie 3,
Right you are.
As the bible teaches us, Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I heard about that snow. But at least you had a white Christmas!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Oh, that reminds me. Last year, around Christmas, I took my kids to see Grandma. On the way, we encountered a blizzard. In WEST TEXAS.? My kids were ecstatic. Because, where we're from, they never see snow. I'm just thankful they never realized what a dangerous situation we were in.
We finally made it to a truck stop and they had a ball making snowmen and throwing snowballs.
When the snow let up, we made it to grandma's.
God was with us as I'm sure He was with you.
Peace and kindness to you also,
De Maria
De Maria,
Thanks.
I believe God is always with us as well as His guardian angels who 2 winters ago hekp us through a situation where most cars went into the ditch and a couple were upside down in the snow.
My brother, Bob, was driving and to this day I don't know how he managed to stay on the road without divine help.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
When did you make the cognitive choice to be heterosexual--at age 6, at age 12, at age 23?Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
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