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Originally Posted by adam7gur

My example is straight from the law.
I am sorry but God's commandments are something more than you describe them to be.
It was God who instructed people to do so.

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Taking something out of context and then trying to apply it to something that God never said to do is unscriptural.

Like I said before using your approach would mean that all Christians should walk around naked for three years like Isaiah did.

Or we could simply make every decision infallibly, including decision whether we are right on understanding passages of scripture simply by drawing lots.

Or as Homesell suggested, we could give God two options that we want and ask Him to tell us which is His choice.

Taking something out of context does not mean that it has God's endorsement.

Tj3,
I fully understand the point that Adam is trying to make and I agree.
Fred

Tom
Casting of lots is instructed by God and not just something mentioned in Scripture. I do remember not to go beyond Scripture but you seem to ignore Scripture 'cause Scripture is crystal clear about it.Even the goat that was a sin offering was chosen by lots.
You ask what the law has to do with it?Do you remember that we are talking here about Jews?You can not separate a Jew from the law, everything they do has to be based on the law,and please remember that the law from the beginning to the end of it is Christ!
If you are in the law you are in Christ,that does not mean the letter of the law but the spirit of the law!Also the gift of the Holy Spirit was not yet given, so I hope now you can see what the law has to do with it.
As for the number of the apostles, let me ask you this!What about all those anonymous brothers that preached the gospel many years ago,in almost every corner of the world?In China, Africa... How many of them were slaughtered,killed,persecuted in every possible way?
Aren't they apostles?Do you doubt that many of them at least, were chosen by Jesus?
I keep telling you,do not judge like men and I will add to that Psalm 82(remember that?)... 'cause you will die like men!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Or as Homesell suggested, we could give God two options that we want and ask Him to tell us which is His choice.

Taking something out of context does not mean that it has God's endorsement.

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You know Scripture!It is clear that those two were not just two,but they were with Christ from the day that our Lord was baptized , till the end!
Just those two,there was no other,that's why there were only two options.
Can't you see that those two were chosen by Jesus since only those two were with Him all that time?Their lives pointed out at them,their lives in Christ, not the apostles and the apostles could not pretend they were blind!

One more thing to think about !
We pray '' give us this day our daily bread ''.
Who gives us this bread?According to you Tom, not God, unless you tell me that every day Jesus personally knocks on your door and gives you bread.
You go out and work and earn money to buy bread,even you go to the bakery and buy it yourself, so where is God in all this?
But still you thank God for this and you know that He gives you this bread!
That is the spirit of the law against the letter of the law!

adam7gur,
Why do you limit God from the possibility that He did things in his own way, in His own time? Tom and I are saying both ways are possible. Do you think God has to have done it the way you think he did and there is no possibility that He did what we suggest? Or are you denying Paul was MORE directly appointed By Jesus?
You keep saying directly and then add "through the apostles." Directly is directly. God provides me daily bread but not directly. If Jesus came and handed me a loaf of bread, THAT would be directly. Jesus appointed Paul directly. He did not appoint Matthias directly.
Acts 13:2 is a perfect example of directly. "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit SAID, 'set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'"

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Originally Posted by homesell

adam7gur,
Why do you limit God from the possibility that He did things in his own way, in His own time? Tom and I are saying both ways are possible. Do you think God has to have done it the way you think he did and there is no possibility that He did what we suggest? or are you denying Paul was MORE directly appointed By Jesus?
You keep saying directly and then add "through the apostles." Directly is directly. God provides me daily bread but not directly. If Jesus came and handed me a loaf of bread, THAT would be directly. Jesus appointed Paul directly. He did not appoint Matthias directly.
Acts 13:2 is a perfect example of directly. "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit SAID, 'set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'"

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4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Correct me if I am wrong but being sent forth sounds to me like an apostle,'cause that's what the word apostle means.
So, after Matthias and Paul, we have another challenger..
Matthias by his life,was directly chosen by Jesus through his desciples.The desciples did not set the rules , but it was Mattias' life that made him one of the two possibilities and because the other possibility had also a life that testified in favor,the desciples could not make that choise, but it was clear that their lives separated them from all the rest.
If you go to a store where you can only pay by VISA, you automatically don't count on MASTERCARD.Does this make it your choise?
The rules were not made by the desciples, the rules were made by Jesus Himself because all of His desciples were with Him from the beginning to the end.Paul was nowhere in sight!That made him not an option!Of course Jesus Himself reveals to him and Paul became the person that we so many times remember and thank God for,but that does not make him one of the twelve.
We are also apostles, we are also sent forth , does this make us one of the twelve?

Being sent forth by the holy spirit is what all of us true believers are hence we are all apostles. WE of course are apostles NOT DIRECTLY appointed by Jesus - and neither was Matthias. Paul's claim was to be a special apostle, directly appointed by Jesus. Something that ONLY the other eleven Apostles could claim.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

Tom
Casting of lots is instructed by God and not just something mentioned in Scripture. I do remember not to go beyond Scripture but you seem to ignore Scripture 'cause Scripture is crystal clear about it.Even the goat that was a sin offering was chosen by lots.

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It was symbolic. It could not take away sins.

Heb 10:4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV

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You ask what the law has to do with it?Do you remember that we are talking here about Jews?You can not separate a Jew from the law, everything they do has to be based on the law,and please remember that the law from the beginning to the end of it is Christ!

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And don't forget that the purpose of the law was to point us to Christ and that those who are in Christ are no longer under the law.

But this has nothing to do with taking a specific ritual intended for specific purpose and then extrapolating it into all areas of life.

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As for the number of the apostles, let me ask you this!What about all those anonymous brothers that preached the gospel many years ago,in almost every corner of the world?In China, Africa... How many of them were slaughtered,killed,persecuted in every possible way?
Aren't they apostles?Do you doubt that many of them at least, were chosen by Jesus?

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Scripture says 12. There are certainly other godly men who have done much for the sake of the gospel, but not everyone is an Apostle. There were 12 according to scripture.

[QUOTE=Tj3;1736714]It was symbolic. It could not take away sins.

Heb 10:4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV
QUOTE]

So you mean that all those OT people had no chance to wash away their sins?
I suppose then David remained a sinner,Elijah,Isaiah,Daniel,Samuel...
I also suppose then you call God a liar because He instructed all those people to do so, for their sins!
Of course the writter of Heb. Means something more than you want to say!

[QUOTE=Tj3;1736714]
And don't forget that the purpose of the law was to point us to Christ and that those who are in Christ are no longer under the law.
QUOTE]

What is it in Christ that is not in the law?
Did Christ ever say that we should forget about the law?
If it is as you mean it then why not just do exactly the opposite of what the law indicates?

[QUOTE=Tj3;1736714]
But this has nothing to do with taking a specific ritual intended for specific purpose and then extrapolating it into all areas of life.QUOTE]

Casting lots was done when people were not sure about God's will and not in every aspect of their lives.
I am hungry, oh what should I do ? Let's cast some lots!!
It was a specific ritual that was done whenever people waited for God's choise and the desciples were in that same place!

[QUOTE=Tj3;1736714
Scripture says 12. There are certainly other godly men who have done much for the sake of the gospel, but not everyone is an Apostle. There were 12 according to scripture.[/QUOTE]

Where does Scripture say that there will only be twelve throughout the centuries?

There are only 12 apostles that have been directly appointed by Jesus. Paul is one of them, Matthias was not.
There were only 11 apostles that were given the great commission (Matt 16-20) directly by Jesus and Paul claims he was also given the great commission by Jesus directly.
Again, that makes 12 apostles given the great commission directly from Jesus. Paul was one of them, Matthias was not.
And thass all I'ma going to say 'bout that.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It was symbolic. It could not take away sins.

Heb 10:4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV

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So you mean that all those OT people had no chance to wash away their sins?
I suppose then David remained a sinner,Elijah,Isaiah,Daniel,Samuel...
I also suppose then you call God a liar because He instructed all those people to do so, for their sins!
Of course the writter of Heb. Means something more than you want to say!

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Quite the contrary - scripture is clear that those in the OT were saved through their faith in the coming Messiah and had their sins washed by the blood on the cross. God is outside of time and not limited by our timeline. The rituals and symbolic sacrifices in the OT were prophetic of the coming of Christ.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

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Originally Posted by Tj3

And don't forget that the purpose of the law was to point us to Christ and that those who are in Christ are no longer under the law.

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What is it in Christ that is not in the law?
Did Christ ever say that we should forget about the law?
If it is as you mean it then why not just do exactly the opposite of what the law indicates?

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Please do not put words in my mouth. Scripture is clear that we live b y the spirit not the letter. Jesus gives a explanation of how the spirit and the letter differ in Matthew 5. the fact that we are not under the law does not give us leeway to sin. But likewise, living by the law will not save you. The law only serves the one purpose and that is to show us har much we have missed the mark, and hiow futile it is to try to be saved through the law. Thus it points us to Christ.

Note that scripture also says that if you have failed to live up to even one point of the law, you are guilty of failing to abide by ALL of the law. So trying to do the best you can will not be good enough for your salvation. There is no way to be saved but through Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

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Originally Posted by Tj3

But this has nothing to do with taking a specific ritual intended for specific purpose and then extrapolating it into all areas of life.

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Casting lots was done when people were not sure about God's will and not in every aspect of their lives.
I am hungry, oh what should I do ? Let's cast some lots!!
It was a specific ritual that was done whenever people waited for God's choise and the desciples were in that same place!

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It was not endorsed by God for anything other than the specifics given in scripture. The fact that some people may have gone beyond that does not mean that it was endorsed by God, nor that it was His will or His direction that came of their use of it.

God is not obliged to live by our rules and to do our bidding.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

Where does Scripture say that there will only be twelve throughout the centuries?

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Rev 21:14.

I must agree with Adam.
What he says makes good common sense and it is back up be Holy Scripture.
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

I must agree with Adam.
What he says makes good common sense and it is back up be Holy Scripture.
Fred

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Really Fred - that is interesting. So are you saying that you feel that casting lots is an infallible way to force God to make decisions for you?

Yj3,
Not at all. That is Not what he said, nor do I say we can force God to do anything.
You know better than that so why make such a silly statement?
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Quite the contrary - scripture is clear that those in the OT were saved through their faith in the coming Messiah and had their sins washed by the blood on the cross. God is outside of time and not limited by our timeline. the rituals and symbolic sacrifices in the OT were prophetic of the coming of Christ.

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You cannot put OT people in the same jar with us today!
They were under the law, we are not.The law was very clear for every little detail of their lives.As for sins in the OT let's see what the law says...

Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

God's Son was not incarnated at that time,and His sacrifise was about to take place centuries later.Yes God is beyond time but we are not.
I can last much longer without food than my 22 months old son.Does this mean ,that my son has to wait until I get hungry so that he has his meal?
He who has power , blesses the one who is weak!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Please do not put words in my mouth. Scripture is clear that we live b y the spirit not the letter. Jesus gives a explanation of how the spirit and the letter differ in Matthew 5. the fact that we are not under the law does not give us leeway to sin. But likewise, living by the law will not save you. The law only serves the one purpose and that is to show us har much we have missed the mark, and hiow futile it is to try to be saved through the law. Thus it points us to Christ.

Note that scripture also says that if you have failed to live up to even one point of the law, you are guilty of failing to abide by ALL of the law. So trying to do the best you can will not be good enough for your salvation. There is no way to be saved but through Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.

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How easy it is for us to say all those things, now that Christ is revealed, but imagine us living in OT times.Imagine us being in their place.I doubt if we would be able to make it better than they did!
Of course now we play smart , now that all the answears are in front of us,but they did not have that privillege.
Those people heard God telling them that they should sacrifise , so that they could be forgiven.Do you realize how difficult it was for them to go beyond the law and understand Christ?
Of course we who never were under the law, say great things about Christ's sacrifise,but let's try to get into their position for a second!
You are judging those people by cretiria that are not suitable and right for them.
It is like judging me for not circumsizing my flesh! You cannot judge me under those rules 'cause I was never under those rules.
It is like whistling a three pointer in a soccer game.What kind of a judge would that be?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It was not endorsed by God for anything other than the specifics given in scripture. the fact that soem people may have gone beyond that does not mean that it was endorsed by God, nor that it was His will or His direction that came of their use of it.

God is not obliged to live by our rules and to do our bidding.

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You got it totally wrong.
It was the apostles that by casting lots , lived by God's rules and not the opposite.
There is a saying...
You don't leave it on chance when you leave it on God!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Rev 21:14.

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Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All this says is that the twelve foundations will have the names of the twelve apostles.
We know(more or less) the names.I asked you where does it say that the apostles throughout history will be only twelve?
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All this says is that the twelve foundations will have the names of the twelve apostles.
We know(more or less) the names.I asked you where does it say that the apostles throughout history will be only twelve?
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

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The city has twelve foundations.What is a foundation? It is a rock that you build upon.
And Jesus said to Peter Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Do you think that Jesus is talking literally here to Peter?Is Peter himself a stone that the church is built upon or is it his testimony that Jesus is the Son of God?
That testimony is the rock, the foundation of the wall of the city that is mentioned in Revelation.
The number twelve symbolizes the ''whole'',just like the twelve tribes of Israel.
The twelve names of the foundations are the names of all of us, and not just the literally twelve.
The names of all of us are in those foundations, that's what twelve stands for!

As we go deeper into this, we go deeper in our hearts and whatever is hidden in our hearts will come to light.
May the Lord Jesus bring into the light of His rightouesness, whatever we have in our hearts and let Him choose between me and you!Amen!

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Originally Posted by arcura

Yj3,
Not at all. That is Not what he said, nor do I say we can force God to do anything.
You know better than that so why make such a silly statement?
Fred

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I said it because you were suggesting it. If casting of lots is not an infallible way to make decisions, then neither can we say that the lost cast for Matthias were an indication that it was God's will.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

You got it totally wrong.
It was the apostles that by casting lots , lived by God's rules and not the opposite.
There is a saying ...
You don't leave it on chance when you leave it on God!

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God did not tell them to choose those two men, nor to use lots. It was their decision, and they therefore were setting the rules.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

You cannot put OT people in the same jar with us today!
They were under the law, we are not.The law was very clear for every little detail of their lives.As for sins in the OT let's see what the law says...

Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

God's Son was not incarnated at that time,and His sacrifise was about to take place centuries later.Yes God is beyond time but we are not.
I can last much longer without food than my 22 months old son.Does this mean ,that my son has to wait until I get hungry so that he has his meal?
He who has power , blesses the one who is weak!

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So, are you saying that the NT is wrong?

Heb 10:4-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

Are you saying that Jesus died in vain and that the blood of animals could take away sins?

Let me suggest that it was not the blood of the animals that took away sins, but the blood of Jesus on the cross, applied to them for their faithfulness looking forward to His coming. There was ever only one way to be saved.

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

All this says is that the twelve foundations will have the names of the twelve apostles.
We know(more or less) the names.I asked you where does it say that the apostles throughout history will be only twelve?
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

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And if there were only 12 at the end of time, then that means 12.

Of course there were others spoken of in Revelation as being false Apostles,

Rev 2:1-3
2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
NKJV

But only 12 Apostles of the Lamb. I assumed that we are only talking about Jesus' Apostles.

Tom, what were the requirements to BE an apostle? I was always taught you had to have seen the risen Lord... and of course Paul did on the road to Damascus.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Tom, what were the requirements to BE an apostle? I was always taught you had to have seen the risen Lord....and of course Paul did on the road to Damascus.

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From what I have read in scripture, I would suggest that the requirements would be:

1) The requirements for that of a bishop or deacon as found in 1 Tim 3, and in Titus 1:7.

2) Must have been a witness of the risen Lord.

3) Be personally chosen by Jesus.

Tj3,
The apostles cast lots to get God's help in whom select.
Keep in mind that they were people who had lived in OT times and were very used to the OT law and what was done then so it was natural for them to cast lots and ask for God's help.
Adam is very right about that.
As has been stated I will believe as I want to and you can do the same.
I know you do not believe in the apostolic succession that has been going on since the book of acts, but I do.
Jesus is with the apostles of His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
The apostles cast lots to get God's help in whom select.

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That, no doubt, was the intent. But God is not obliged to do what men tell Him to do, or to do things in the timing and methodology decided by men.

Tj3,
I do believe that God did help them and so they had a new apostle brother.
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I do believe that God did help them and so they had a new apostle brother.
Fred

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You are welcome to believe that regardless of what scripture actually says.

Th3,
Thanks!
I WILL believe as I want to and I do agree with what scripture says, but not the way you interpret it.
Fred

Back to the topic...

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Originally Posted by classyT

Tom, what were the requirements to BE an apostle? I was always taught you had to have seen the risen Lord....and of course Paul did on the road to Damascus.

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From what I have read in scripture, I would suggest that the requirements would be:

1) The requirements for that of a bishop or deacon as found in 1 Tim 3, and in Titus 1:7.

2) Must have been a witness of the risen Lord.

3) Be personally chosen by Jesus.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Tom, what were the requirements to BE an apostle? I was always taught you had to have seen the risen Lord....and of course Paul did on the road to Damascus.

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Yes, but he did not spend not even one single day with Jesus from His baptism , and that's something that all the rest did!
Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Do you still believe that Matthias did not see the risen Lord?