What distinction are you referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
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What distinction are you referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
What I get out of what Akoue is saying is
Faith without works is a dead faith.
You can't have faith and not have the evidence of your faith resulting in works.
Scripture says that if I believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour, I am saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
You are saying that if you believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour you are not saved. You must also have works. You are saying that the scripture gospel does not save us.
"if I believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour, I am saved."
Now who's conflating faith and belief?
If so, then why does he not stop the arguing and simple agree with that. Every time I point that out he tells us that work is essential for us to be saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Akoue please clarify. Do you believe that we must we first have works to be saved?
Or
Do you believe that the works follow salvation?
Again: Works are a NECESSARY, but not SUFFICIENT, CONDITION for salvation. No salvation without works and faith.
So, no, works do not "follow" salvation, anymore than faith "follows" salvation.
BTW: Works aren't for show, we don't do them so that others will think we have faith (as you have intimated). If works aren't undertaken with the right intention they are not right sort of works. So, yes, works must be undertaken faithfully; they must be acts performed in a spirit of humility.
artlady's.
Hi Michele.
I'm much older than you at 75, 76 coming in February but that is not what counts in forgiveness.
Not forgiving people keeps a person loaded with junk that must be carried.
Dump the junk. Forgive them 7 times 70 times if necessary more.
I forgive a constant bigot and liar that I deal with almost daily so he is little more than an irritant.
I forgive everyone who has sinned against me via thought, word or deed whether I know about it or not.
That way I let the Lord handle it and I dump it.
"Let Go. Let God!!!"
After doing that for awhile it becomes easy.
Now I realize that forgiving people does not change them.
They are the only ones who can change themselves.
So I pray that the Holy Spirit works with them to help them change.
Sometimes that works quite well.
In others if the sinner is dead set in his/her ways it's like trying to break down a mountain with a feather.
BUT then also keep in mind that the weather, over time, can and has broken down mountains. It just takes a lot of weather and time.
I thank the Lord for His inspirational help.
You should think about asking for that help.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Let's look at James 2 for a minute. You tell us to look at the context. The context, reading from James 2.14: We get the question, "What good is it, my brothers, is someone says he has faith [pistin] but does not have works [erga]? CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM [me dunatai he pistis sosai auton]?" Then, in vv.16-17 we are given an example: If someone has nothing to wear and has no food, "and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace'" without providing for their needs, "what good is it"? Now verse 17: "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead [houtos hai he pistis, ean me eche erga, nekra estin kath' heauten]"--it is not a living faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Now v.20: "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless [Theleis de gnonai, ho anthrope kene, hoti he pistis choris ton ergon arge estin]?"
Now v.21: "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS [ex ergon] when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. <22> You see that faith [he pistis] was active along with his works [tois ergois autou], and faith [he pistis] was completed by the works [ek ton ergon]."
It looks to me like what's required is both faith and works together, as I've been saying, so that neither alone (i.e., in the absence of the other) is sufficient.
Where on earth are you getting this bizzaro faith/faithfulness business? The word is "pistis"--faith. If the NT were making a distinction between "faith" and "faithfulness" wouldn't you expect it to have been made in the Gk? But what you find in the Gk. is just "pistis". So you are trying to read a distinction drawn in English--faith/faithfulness--into the NT, which has only the word "pistis".
Akoue,
Right again!!
But don't expect your excellent argument to be accepted.
Very often it won't be by those who a stuck in the faith only heresy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
So YOU say. I take my doctrine from scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Exactly what I am saying. If you do not have faithfuless / faith which has evidence of works, then why should we believe that that person's faith is real, or that it is in the one true God. If you do NOT have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and claim to have faith, this may exhibit itself in the lack of works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I trust that you know that the word that you have put in capitals which is translated as "justified" is daikoo which is Greek means to "render" or to "show". Thus this is saying that the works were a display, show or evidence of his faith. The context of the surrounding verses helped to show that this is in fact the context. Even verse 22 says that faith was teleioo which means consummated or made perfect. For that to happen, the faith had to be there is the first place.Quote:
Now v.20: "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless [Theleis de gnonai, ho anthrope kene, hoti he pistis choris ton ergon arge estin]?"
Now v.21: "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS [ex ergon] when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. <22> You see that faith [he pistis] was active along with his works [tois ergois autou], and faith [he pistis] was completed by the works [ek ton ergon]."
You need to speak to a Greek expert or a better lexicon. Do me a favour, will you? Grab a KJV Bible and a NKJV or NIV and compare the KJV translation with one of the others. Post your findings here.Quote:
Where on earth are you getting this bizzaro faith/faithfulness business? The word is "pistis"--faith.
That is my point. I did not make a distinction - it appears that you are. I was pointing out to you that the Greek has no such distinction. Speak to someone who understands linguistics. Translation between languages sometimes results in one word translated into 2 or more depending upon context, or several words translated into one. The English translators, depending upon when and who did it it translate pistis into different words in English, predominantly faith and faithfulness. Thus when you read "faith" in an English Bible, you must always be aware that the word in Greek carries with it the sense of "faithfulness.Quote:
If the NT were making a distinction between "faith" and "faithfulness" wouldn't you expect it to have been made in the Gk? But what you find in the Gk. Is just "pistis". So you are trying to read a distinction drawn in English--faith/faithfulness--into the NT, which has only the word "pistis".
Do your research.
Akoue,
I note that you keep avoiding questions asked of you. The latest is:
If so, then why does he not stop the arguing and simple agree with that. Every time I point that out he tells us that work is essential for us to be saved.
Akoue please clarify. Do you believe that we must we first have works to be saved?
Or
Do you believe that the works follow salvation?
Please answer. I am sure that you have no reason not to be clear about what you believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Well, Tj, did you read my #46 above? I know you did, because you quoted part of it at #50. Here it is again:
Again: Works are a NECESSARY, but not SUFFICIENT, CONDITION for salvation. No salvation without works and faith.
So, no, works do not "follow" salvation, anymore than faith "follows" salvation.
BTW: Works aren't for show, we don't do them so that others will think we have faith (as you have intimated). If works aren't undertaken with the right intention they are not right sort of works. So, yes, works must be undertaken faithfully; they must be acts performed in a spirit of humility.
All:Quote:
Originally Posted by AkoueLeaving to one side the other exchange in which I'm embroiled on this thread, I'd like to take up artlady's very nice post.
Like you, many of us find distressing the idea that one can claim to be saved in spite of performing heinous actions. God's mercy is infinite, to be sure, but so is his justice. If someone who has lived badly comes to God... well, that's all to the good, of course. But it makes me terribly uncomfortable for people to claim on their own behalf that they are saved, that they are going to heaven, what have you. This just sounds profoundly arrogant to my ears: Who am I, who are any of us, to say that we are saved? Where's the "fear and trembling" in that? Where's the humility? Judgment is God's prerogative, and I'm not to arrogate that to myself. Tell me that you have faith, tell me that you are striving to be better, tell me that you long for heaven, and I'm all ears. Tell me that it's a done deal and all I can do is shake my head.
This doesn't speak to Fred's question, I know, except in a roundabout way. But I found artlady's remarks thoughtful and thought-provoking, and I wanted to acknowledge that
.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4uSome people just have so much faith it feels like gold in the bank.
Sure some people are arrogant that they are going to heaven but some proclaim it because their faith is soooo overwhelming they have enough faith to claim they are going to heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
As I see it, this does speak to Fred's question; although from a somewhat obtuse angle, and at times somewhat negatively.
“Where's the humanity?” Where is it said that the will of men can conjure God's salvation? We are asked by Christ himself to love God first among all things. This was a proclamation to the entire nation of God, “Hear, O' Israel”. This isn't a declaration to a few, but to all, universally. That love is to be consuming of the whole heart and whole soul (Cf. Mark 12:29).
How can taking ownership, like the ownership of a precious metal, manifest this love? Isn't such love really a self-love, as it were, putting God in a box; bringing Him out only to fawn over us. At judgment, we'll be unable present our little bag of love nuggets. There's little salvation within one's slef.
So we find that to love God is to know God; to know God is to love. To know God is to know that which is good. And putting these things together, to be good is to be saintly (Cf. 1 John 4:7; Romans 8:28). The arrogance is to boast of possessing god, to demand his merciful graces as one demands payment for services rendered. In my opinion, this consuming form of love is hard; it demands an abandonment of the will. Opposed to this is a self-serving justification is a debased reciprocal love. The reason is that to surrender to God's love is to surrender control of our will to Him. Consequently, our love is given reluctantly, with strings, with expectations. Therefore it is frequently given ONLY because we fear the loss of heaven. This way we can “box-up” God extending our love in return for salvation by merely proclaiming His sovereignty. Instead it is with fear and trembling that we want to be obedient to God's love, to surrender our will.
I can't give a direct answer to Fed's question. However, it would be safe to say that those found in heaven will be those who selflessly love God with fear and trembling. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Fear (From a Moral Standpoint)
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
"Dikaioo" means (1) to make right, (2) to judge, condemn, or punish, (3) to make just, bold, or justify (Greek-English Lexicon, edd. Liddell & Scott, Oxford University Press, p.173). Now the word that occurs in James 2.21 is "edikaiothe", from "dikaioo", which is also the root of the word "dikaion" (translated typically as "righteous" or "justified") throughout the rest of the NT. I don't see how your remark about v.22 disagrees with what I've said.
I actually am a Gk expert: I've been teaching university courses on this stuff for years. I've even published on it (and not on-line but in peer-reviewed journals and academic presses and stuff--you know, where other experts review what I write). And I don't typically read translations of the NT. I prefer to read it in the original. Sorry.
Your "faith"/"faithfulness" stuff makes no sense. How on earth does making this distinction in English vitiate anything that Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians believe? They believe, as James 2 says, that faith (pistis) and works (erga) are both required for salvation.
Well, Joe, I'd have given you the last word, but your post appeared while I was writing my last one. So I'd like to second the spirit of your post and leave it there.
Nicely put.
Good - I just wanted you to clearly differentiate between your position and the Biblical view because Nohelp4u appeared to think that you were in agreement with us who stand on the Biblical position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Thanks, but actually it wasn’t intended as the last word. I had let this sit for some hours and simply didn’t know the conversation was moving forward without me. The jokes on me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I’m curious, what’s the significance, if any, of the screen name “Akoue”?
JoeT
I wonder if you gave the complete definition. If so it leaves out what others seem to include. However even if you have found one lexicon to agree with you, that is not a proper way to translate. You cannot take a single verse out of context to try to argue it against the rest of the context of scripture, both local and elsewhere. So, finding a single lexicon does not allow you to escape the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Then you agree with me? Why then do you keep arguing?Quote:
I don't see how your remark about v.22 disagrees with what I've said.
I am quite surprised to hear you say that. What you have presented in our discussions certainly does not appear to reflect that expertise. You have been in disagreement with other sources by known Greek experts. Since I don't know you, nor can validate your claims, I will have to go along with the known and recognized Greek experts.Quote:
I actually am a Gk expert: I've been teaching university courses on this stuff for years.
See if you do not understand these basics of linguistics, it makes me hard pressed to believe your claim to be a language expert.Quote:
Your "faith"/"faithfulness" stuff makes no sense.
Again, as I said before these strawman arguments also do not help your credibility. You keep claiming that I am making a distinction which I not only am NOT making but which has been explained to you a number of times.Quote:
How on earth does making this distinction in English vitiate anything that Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox Christians believe?
Please do not misrepresent what I am saying. When you do so, it comes across that you have no answer so you try to change what I am saying so that you can claim that you are you right and I am wrong. I have seen you use that approach 3 times ion this thread. Again that argues against your claims to be an expert.
They can believe what they want, but the Bible says that scripture is of no private interpretation.Quote:
They believe, as James 2 says, that faith (pistis) and works (erga) are both required for salvation.
Howdy, Joe. (I just like the way that sounds!)
"Akoue" is the imperative form of the Gk. Word for to hear or to listen. There's no real significance other than that, though. When I registered and needed to come up with a username I had the Shepherd of Hermas sitting open next to me. I glanced over the and first sentence of Mand.6.2.1 caught my eye: "Akoue nun peri tes pisteos" or "Hear now concerning faith". So, what the hell, I went with the first word.
Akoue,
I rest my case!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I’m one who believes that everything fits into God’s plan. Nothing happens by chance. The name fits. Thanks for taking the time to be here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Semper Fi
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Does this mean you're done with us? You've got the answers you needed?
JoeT
Tj,
No effort to deceive here. That's why I provided the citation. It's possible you've confused "dikaioo", which I've explained above, with "deloo" (if you'd like to look it up, the "e" is an eta not an epsilon). "Deloo" does, in fact, mean to show or reveal or make manifest. Hope this helps.
I'm not sure which "known Greek experts" have taken exception with the very modest corrections I've offered on these boards. I did on one occasion point out that another person's transliterations were in error. In any case, I'm not interested in having anyone accept what I say because I am, or they take me to be, an expert (again, I offered the citation above).
As for the rest: I've made a case regarding James 2. I've used, and supplied for others, the Greek of James 2. I've shown that you misunderstood the Greek word "dikaioo"--not to mention the rest of the text I cited. I don't think it's extraordinarily tendentious of me to say that, barring further evidence to the contrary, I've shown that the Catholic-Orthodox reading of James 2 is right and yours is mistaken. Given that, it looks like, on this issue at least, they are the "Biblical" Christians and you are not.
Oh, and asking a question like the one I posed at the end of #55 and which you quote above isn't setting up a strawman. (You used the locution "strawman arguments", but there's no such thing: One can use an argument against a strawman though.) And how could their interpretation of James to be "private", as you say? What could be more public than 2,000 years of tone of scholars and theologians and bishops saying exactly the same thing: There is no salvation without faith and works.
I certainly don't wish to misrepresent what you are saying. To do that would be to attack a strawman. I want to show, using the Scriptural evidence that you yourself provide, that you haven't come close to demonstrating the falsity of the Catholic-Orthodox view. It only serves my purposes to knock down the *strongest* version of your view. Except for our failure to communicate efficiently regarding the faith/faithfulness distinction, I think the content of my posts has put your view in a pretty bad way. Now you feel that I've misunderstood your point about faith/faithfulness. Maybe I have and maybe that's my fault. You are welcome to explain it to me again. If you'd rather not, then we can let it drop. I'm happy either way.
JoeT777 ,
No,
I said that in reference to my earlier post which said that an argument was very well both faith and good works which prove that faith are exceptionally well made, but that most others who believe in the faith only heresy will reject or ignore that biblical fack.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
No confusion, I can read nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
That is why I have to go with known experts who can be validated.Quote:
I'm not sure which "known Greek experts" have taken exception with the very modest corrections I've offered on these boards. I did on one occasion point out that another person's transliterations were in error. In any case, I'm not interested in having anyone accept what I say because I am, or they take me to be, an expert (again, I offered the citation above).
Which has been refuted.Quote:
As for the rest: I've made a case regarding James 2.
Not true. Once again, your claims were refuted.Quote:
I've used, and supplied for others, the Greek of James 2. I've shown that you misunderstood the Greek word "dikaioo"--not to mention the rest of the text I cited.
I'm glad that you are so impressed with your presentation that you have convinced yourself that you are right. I need something more solid to convince me.Quote:
I don't think it's extraordinarily tendentious of me to say that, barring further evidence to the contrary, I've shown that the Catholic-Orthodox reading of James 2 is right and yours is mistaken.
Ah, so now you are into judging the salvation of others. Interesting - are you planning to take God's role in other areas also?Quote:
Given that, it looks like, on this issue at least, they are the "Biblical" Christians and you are not.
It does not appear that you have a background in logic either. But in any case, it was a strawman because you set up a situation where you were arguing against something that I not only did not say, and which I specifically told you was not true. Then you continued to make the same claim.Quote:
Oh, and asking a question like the one I posed at the end of #55 and which you quote above isn't setting up a strawman. (You used the locution "strawman arguments", but there's no such thing: One can use an argument against a strawman though.)
First, even if there were scholars and theologians making errors like that for 2,000 years, the context of that passage is not saying that it is okay to make errors publicly - it is contrasting the interpretation of the Holy Spirit to that of men.Quote:
And how could their interpretation of James to be "private", as you say? What could be more public than 2,000 years of tone of scholars and theologians and bishops saying exactly the same thing: There is no salvation without faith and works.
Then you need to deal honestly with what I have said and not make it up on the fly.Quote:
I want to show, using the Scriptural evidence that you yourself provide, that you haven't come close to demonstrating the falsity of the Catholic-Orthodox view. It only serves my purposes to knock down the *strongest* version of your view.
Again, you have your cheering section from your denomination who agreed with you before you started, and you seem pretty impressed with yourself, but from my perspective, your arguments seem quite run of the mill and weak. You seem to have tried your best to argument using the strawman arguments and avoiding other or deflecting other points without dealing with them, or just claiming victory, by telling us how good you've done.Quote:
Except for our failure to communicate efficiently regarding the faith/faithfulness distinction, I think the content of my posts has put your view in a pretty bad way.
I am quite willing to continue, but each time that the issue has arisen I have explained it. I have said it in a number of different ways, so how you have managed to "mis-understand" it is beyond me. You can go back to what I said in my last response or look back to post #6 or any of the others. I have been very clear, and no one before has ever had the trouble that you claim to have in understanding such a basic point.Quote:
Now you feel that I've misunderstood your point about faith/faithfulness. Maybe I have and maybe that's my fault. You are welcome to explain it to me again. If you'd rather not, then we can let it drop. I'm happy either way.
Akoue,
I expect the argument about faith and works are need to continue till everyone realizes that the faith only idea is very wrong and a biblical heresy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
You do in this instance. Because it is from the Reformed tradition that you have taken your beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
That is correct.Quote:
Really? Faith is a work that we do?
Read the verse carefully and don't read into it your predispositions. Lets see it again.Quote:
You seem to be mixing belief and faith. There is a relationship, but they are not the same. Nonetheless, this does not say that faith or belief is a work of man but of God.
The disciples asked Jesus:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
They understand that God ordains works from the beginning that we walk in them.
Jesus didn't say, "You can't do God's works." He said this:
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Therefore, faith in Christ is the work of God which we must do.
And it is clear, without faith we can't please God. Therefore, faith is necessary for entrance to heaven. In other words, without faith, we don't merit heaven. If salvation were totally free, we there would be no requirements. But there are a few.
1. You must have faith.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
2. You must obey His Word:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
3. You must show your faith in your works:
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Faith AND WORKS are BOTH required for salvation.Quote:
Once again, our works are left out of the equation for salvation.
Thank you. Works are evidence of your faith in God. If you have no works you have no faith and you are not saved.Quote:
I note that those who quote this in support of the erroneous works gospel fail to deal with either the Greek or the context. Keep in mind that in the original Greek of the NT, the word use for faith is the same as faithfulness, so if one has faith, then the natural consequence is that one will act on that faith. For example, if you have a child and you love that child, you will provide for that child and do what you can to make the child healthy and happy - but it is not to prove to others that you love the child, but it is a natural consequence of the love that you have for the child. It is the evidence of that love.
I see no difference. It means exactly the same thing.Quote:
The same is true with faith and faithfulness. Thus if you were a person who was reading this in Koine Greek, it would read to you like:
"Faithfulness without works is dead"
No, it means that having faithfulness will not merit salvation if it is not accompanied by good works.Quote:
This means that having been saved, having faith, having received grace, the expectation is that your faithfulness is evidenced by works.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Tj,
You're more than welcome to attack me. It's really no skin off my nose. It does puzzle me that it bothers you so much when other people say nice things to or about each other. But it's really none of my business.
Now which of my claims have you *refuted*? You've disagreed with a bunch of them. But refutation requires reasoned argument, and your posts are becoming increasingly choppy. You certainly didn't *refute* anything I said about James 2. You got the Greek wrong. It's not the end of the world, you just don't read Greek very well. Few people do read ancient Greek well. No reason to let your temper flare. You think I'm a lousy philologist; you think I'm a lousy logician (all those years studying under all those prominent logicians wasted, apparently. I feel so ashamed. But, then again, you do have trouble with the terminology, don't you? And you seem to need a lot of help with Greek. So... Naw, I'll just feel really badly about myself. All better now?)
De Maria,
Once again you make excellent points to show biblically that faith AND works are necessary for salvation and that the faith only theology is a heresy and has been since the reformation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,
I suspect this thread will end the way many others do when Tj is losing the argument. It will end up getting closed. But, until then, I agree that this is important stuff worth hashing out.
Then either you don't know understand my views or Reformed theology or both.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Scripture disagrees.Quote:
That is correct.
I have.Quote:
Read the verse carefully and don't read into it your predispositions. Lets see it again.
John 6:27-31
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
NKJV
We are to believe in God, and the fact that we believe is a work of God.
Works? This passage speaks solely of one work and that is the work of God that we believe.Quote:
The disciples asked Jesus:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
They understand that God ordains works from the beginning that we walk in them.
Really. If faith is required for us to believe, then where does faith come from?Quote:
Jesus didn't say, "You can't do God's works." He said this:
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Therefore, faith in Christ is the work of God which we must do.
John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV
God draws those who have faith first. You cannot come to Jesus unless God draws you, therefore in the drawing you are given faith to believe. Now before you accuse me of being Calvinist, you should check out my website. I am simply quoting scripture here, but I am not supporting nor a believer in TULIP. So don't make assumptions regarding my beliefs.I believe what the Bible teaches.
And He provides that.Quote:
1. You must have faith.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hmmm... But I know for a fact that you have not done so so, using your out of context interpretation, you must not be saved. You know how I know that you have not obeyed Him? Because Romans 3:23 tells me that.Quote:
2. You must obey His Word:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
No, you must have faith in God. You show your faithfulness through your works.Quote:
3. You must show your faith in your works:
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Nope.Quote:
Faith AND WORKS are BOTH required for salvation.
Now you got it! And if works are the evidence, then the faith came first.Quote:
Thank you. Works are evidence of your faith in God.
Actually, now you have gone beyond what scripture says. For example, a person who accepted Christ 5 seconds ago has no works as evidence, and yet is, nonetheless saved. Also, works are only one evidence, though an important evidence. There are others (though oddly you don't claim that you must have the others evidences).Quote:
If you have no works you have no faith and you are not saved.
That is my point - a Greek would say the same thing. Yet in English, the meaning of these words vary so we lose the proper understanding what scripture says in Greek, and thus end up with erroneous understandings such as the belief that works is necessary for salvation when that is in fact not found in the text.Quote:
I see no difference. It means exactly the same thing.
Okay, since you insist on holding to your interpretation regardless of whatever is said or shown from scripture, let's test your position with an example.Quote:
No, it means that having faithfulness will not merit salvation if it is not accompanied by good works.
A person who is paralyzed and is an invalid and unable to do works of any type accepts Jesus as Saviour. Is that person going to hell?
Akoue,
Again I agree with you.
The truth MUST be told until all understand that "faith only" and "Scripture only" are heresies.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Wow! Offensive. People who are paralyzed can do all sorts of things. Here's one thing they can do: They can PRAY. (FYI, prayer is a work, and ergon.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I have not attacked you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
What have you been reading?? I haven't the faintest idea what you are even thinking about here.Quote:
It does puzzle me that it bothers you so much when other people say nice things to or about each other.
Whether you are a Greek expert is up in the air, but you are definitely a politician! I would expect you to say nothing less. But it is following a pattern.Quote:
Now which of my claims have you *refuted*? You've disagreed with a bunch of them. But refutation requires reasoned argument, and your posts are becoming increasingly choppy.
- Strawman arguments
- ignoring questions asked of you
- Using your opinions as the standard of right and wrong
- Declaring the glories of yourself assessed victory
- Not providing a response to the rebuttals
- Sometimes addressing points.
Personally, I think that the last item is the most important but why you increasingly use the first 4 is something known only to yourself. If you are unable or unwilling to carry on the discussion, that is fine. It does not bother me one way or the other.
So far that is just your claim. And it appears that you have no rebuttal to anything other than to simply claim you are right and those who disagree are wrong.Quote:
You certainly didn't *refute* anything I said about James 2. You got the Greek wrong.
'nuff said.
Prayer is a work, eh? So tell me, how much prayer is necessary in addition to receiving Christ in order to be saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
And, it appears that you are saying that the prayers of the unsaved are as effective as the prayers of the saved because if prayer (work) is essential for salvation, then it must be done before the person is saved.
But then we have that scripture that says:
Rom 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
NKJV
So how do you conclude that works before we are saved are pleasing to God?
Wow. It amazes me the people that you just declared heretics. Including the Apostle Paul, and at least doctor of your denomination.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You've gone and misunderstood the Gospel again. The question they asked was how "can we accomplish the works of God" (ta arga tou theou). What can we do in order to perform the works that God would have us perform?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Now the answer: Believe in the one he sent and you are doing "the work of God" (ton ergon tou theou). This is a work, an ergon. But of whom?
Your reading has "the works of God" (ta erga tou theou) referring in v.28 to something *we* do and referring v.29 to something *God* does. In other words, you've got the meaning of the same phrase being switched from one verse to the next. This simply isn't plausible.
Really? I am still waiting for someone to show me where "works" is in the gospel (did Paul miss it when he gave the gospel in Corinthians?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
I missed nothing. The fact that we believe IS a work of God.
John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV
Wait, so do you mean to sugges that nowhere in the Gospel do we find talk of ta erga? Isn't right there, in Jn.6?
Oh, and on Jn.6;44-5: yeah, grace is required. Having I been saying that all along?
Akoue,
Have you noticed that when some are obviously losing an discussion they accuse the opponent of attacking them.
Also notice that I was just falsely accused of calling the apostle Pauj a heretic.
That is an out and out false statement but another tactic used by those who have no other avenue when losing a discussion.
It is hilarious the tactics they use in trying to gain the ground they lost.
It just digs a deeper hole for them to fall into.
Peace and kindness,
Ftred
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