Kicking and screaming if need be.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
But, I don’t understand what’s compelling you to respond, obviously you don’t have to?
It'll have to wait, I've got another meeting to go to, so I'll write more later.
JoeT
|
Kicking and screaming if need be.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
But, I don’t understand what’s compelling you to respond, obviously you don’t have to?
It'll have to wait, I've got another meeting to go to, so I'll write more later.
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I don't understand Fred, where did a 100-years come from? Why not 50-years? Why not 5,000-years?
JoeT
450donn,
Yes, I believe we are in the end of times and have been for 2000 years.
As I said previously the last day of this age is sooner than they were 2000 years ago.
God works in His time not ours.
But I do believe that we will have to wait at least 100 years for the last day to come along because far to many people expect it to happen in the next FEW years.
Most Christian DO NOT believe in the rapture.
A few million do.
Compare that to 2 billion Christians.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
The Scriptures cannot be broken.
John 10:35
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(KJV)
1Thes 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)
The resurrected righteous dead along with the changed righteous living will rise to meet Jesus in the air
II Th 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)
The restraining force that has up to this point kept Anti-Christ from coming to power is the Holy Spirit filled Church. (No one on these threads has offered any evidence contrary to this view so far)
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)
When Jesus actually returns to earth, His saints will be with Him. That means they had to have previously been called to Him.
This will be at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be Armegeddon.
Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The Saints of the ages will reign with Christ over a world repopulated by those survivors of the Great Tribulation.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)
Rev 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)
Here are the wicked of all ages. It is their time of judgment.
After this comes the New Heavens and New Earth, and I think, New Jerusalem.
Whether there is a time of tribulation is a matter of biblical prophecy. I'm not arguing that the prophecy is in error. Rather the interpretation by Darby that there will be “rapture” prior to the time of tribulation, later picked up by Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. When we look at the origins of pre-tribulation rapture we don't find John Nelson Darby, rather Margaret MacDonald a 14-year old, in a visionary séance in 1830. (Cf. Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot) This is not condition I would call conducive to being filled with the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
But this hasn't stopped unconstrained thinkers from predicting failed pre-trib rapture.
• 1844 - William Miller predicted Christ would return between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844, then revised his prediction, claiming to have miscalculated Scripture, to October 22, 1844. Miller's theology gave rise to the Advent movement.
• 1977 - William M. Branham predicted that the Rapture would take place in 1977.
• 1981 - Chuck Smith undogmatically predicted that Jesus would likely return by 1981.
• 1988 - Publication of 88 Reasons the Rapture is in 1988, by Edgar C. Whisenant.
• 1989 - Publication of The final shout: Rapture report 1989, by Edgar Whisenant. More predictions by this author appeared for 1992, 1995, and other years.
• 1992 - Korean group "Mission for the Coming Days" predicted October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture.[22]
• 1993 - Seven years before the year 2000. The rapture would have to start to allow for seven years of the Tribulation before the Return in 2000. Multiple predictions.
• 1994 - Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles predicted June 9, 1994. Radio evangelist Harold Camping predicted September 27, 1994.
Wouldn't you think such a profound theological doctrine would produce better results than these?
( Source: Wikipedia )
What authority assures you that what you believe is right?Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Yes as foretold in Revelation, not in Left Behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
JoeT
Galveston1,
So just using the Scripture passages you have chosen the dead in Christ will be taken, the alive will be taken up into the clouds, and the evil sent to hell.
So there will be no one left on earth to celebrate the 1000 years of peace.
After which Satan will be turned loose for awhile to cause problems for no one.
Interesting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Galveston1, et al:
True, scripture cannot be broken; but scriptural exegesis (the interpretation of scripture) can be ruptured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
These verses in Paul’s first Epistle are to quail an argument among followers in the synagogue of a provincial capital of Macedonia, Thessalonike (Cf. Acts 17:2). The argument is over who will go first at the second coming of Christ; those who have already died in Christ and those who will be alive in Christ at the time of the second coming. Christ will return to earth in a great fan fair and the DEAD will rise first. Then the living shall go out to meet Christ as he returns to his Kingdom on earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
This scripture requires that “the dead in Christ shall rise first.” First comes before second, usually. So, let’s see what it takes for the dead in Christ to rise. To be risen first we hear Christ’s words, “Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.” And, you must be of Christ. Which we hear Christ pulling us into his Kingdom, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” (John 6:55) So, we see that the living don’t catch up with Christ until after the dead on the last day when Christ comes to re-claim his Kingdom?
How does this support 2 or 3 second comings? I don’t understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
There is no support for a 2nd 2nd coming here. How does this show Christ doing a touch-and-go on his first of 2nd comings and a hard landing on the 2nd of 2nd comings?Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Where do we get, “repopulated by survivors” ? Where is a second coming of Christ? Read it again. We see a spiritual battle where Satan is bound for a long period; during that period we see the beheaded martyrs (priests of God and Christ) risen, no longer threatened with a second death during that long period. These priests are in heaven. Then we see a second RESURRECTION. Not a second coming of Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Agreed, these verses depict the rising of the dead and a judgment. Now we can have the living in Christ taken up. Especially, since in the next chapter, Chapter 21, after the dead are raised, we see a new heaven and a new earth. The holy city of God is built on earth. Behold, now the living in Christ go out to meet him!Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
JoeT
Good job!Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
I'm a bit confused by the most recent post. How have Fred and Joe erred in their reading of the passages cited by Galveston1?
As Fred said, the upshot is, to say the least, "interesting".
JoeT777
Again I must agree with you.
There will be NO 2 0r 3 comings of Jesus Christ to this planet and the clouds are a part thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Do any of you listen to john hagee, joel osteen or joyce meyers? John hagee pretty well has the last day figured out, not just by the new testament but by the old testament. Joel osteen is excellent in teaching a positive attitude and joyce meyer tells life as it is with all the complications. So lets say Christ will come back to catch his church away for those who are looking for Him . No one knows when not even Christ himself. While we are waiting lets get down to living like He is coming tomorrow. What about it? :D
We see through a glass darkly
Arcura,
The second coming is when CHRIST SETS his feet on the Mount of Olives and it splits into.. THAT is the second coming and there is NO other. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is picking up his bride.. he is NOT coming to the EARTH. Just because YOU think a catching away would be cinsidered second coming doesn't mean it is. The second coming the WORD says ALL EYES will SEE HIM. Only his bride gets to see him in the rapture. Not the same at all. And you can debunk it. Balk at it , laugh at it... shake you head and yet... we WILL be snatched away...
classyT,
You are TRYING to squeeze in ab extra coming of Christ ti this planet.
And don't forget that mountains are often in the clouds.
Mark my words there will be no rapture as it is being preached.
The bible teaches otherwise and the rapture as it is being preached does not make sense.
Jesus in merciful and loving. No where in the bible is there any indication that He did or would snatch away the pilots of an airplane and let it crash killing all aboard.
I do not believe my kind, gentle, merciful Lord would do that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Indeed! I do NOT believe my kind gentle, merciful Lord would pour his WRATH out on his BRIDE!! The Lord says that if he didn't come back there would be NO flesh left alive that is how bad it is going to get. This isn't just some serious troubles, trials.. it is HELL on earth. AND... I will leave the Lord to the details of the raputre and airplane pilots. I don't know.. if I'm not saved I suppose being killed in a crash would be a better way to go then what is coming on this earth. But again.. the Lord knows what he is doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
FYI.. I hope you saw my comment about america and the Great Satan. You misunderstood me in the other thread.. I bleed red, white and blue... I LOVE America. :)
Deliberately, Never!Quote:
Originally Posted by margar
Agreed – you’re preaching to the choir here.Quote:
Originally Posted by margar
JoeT
Joet,
Agreed.
I am also a member of that choir.
Let us sing praises to God together.
Fred
Lots of misconception here Fred, and Joel. First read it again:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)
I know you know what "together" means.
How can you think that this passage says no one will be left on Earth? Only the redeemed will be cought up, everyone else will still be here. The devil will then have his way for the period of the Great Tribulation, after which he will be confined for 1,000 years, during which life will continue on planet Earth through those who lived through the Great Tribulation.
Then Satan will be let loose for a "short season" and will deceive the nations and lead one final assault against Christ and the redeemed and will then be cast into the Lake of Fire.
THEN will come the last resurrection which is that of the wicked dead who will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his angels.
I can show you the scriptures if you want me to.
(edit) Actually, the devil isn't going to have his way, but he is going to cause a LOT of misrey during that time.
Galveston1
I was having fun with the non-sense of the rapture.
My sense of humor was at work.
I don't believe in the rapture as iit is being preached.
Jesus will come back to this planet just once only that includes the clouds.
Fred
I cannot dispute scripture. Galveston took it right out of the Bible. First corinthians speaks of the catching away of the believers. When I say believes I speak of those who have been born again. Just because a person believe there was a man called Jesus doesn't mean that person will be in the catching away. Sitting in a church doesn't make you a christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Quoted from joyce meyers. There are going to be 7 years of tribulation. Are we going into it right now? There has been some different thought of when the catching away of the saints is going to happen. Some say after three and one half years and some say before the tribulation starts. The antichrist will set up a one world government and one world religion at that time. Lets hear some comments on the antichrist. A man who will come to conquer the world. The spirit of antichrist is in the world right now. The antichrist will imitate Christ and many will be fooled by him. I don't want to be here when this a takes place.
The argument isn't whether there will be a great tribulation, but rather when those living in that day will be brought into the Kingdom of God; whether they will be taken out of the world to, as it were, escape the tribulation. Galveston1's reference to 1 Thes 4:15-18, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the Catholic Church is a forced interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by margar
Anyone passage in scripture must be in harmony with other passages; otherwise the author(s) would be contradicting themselves. This is not a good thing in scripture as it would produce varying different faiths; but we're called to one faith (Cf. John 17:20-26).
This particular problem arises in the first book of Thessalonians if we hold that the living in Christ will be “raptured” out of the world to avoid the tribulation. The contradiction is that this scripture requires “the dead in Christ shall rise first.” Other scriptures call for the dead in Christ to rise only on the last day. To be raised first we hear Christ's words, “Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.” And, you must be of Christ. Which we hear Christ pulling us into his Kingdom, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” (John 6:55) So, we see that the living don't catch up with Christ until after (or at least at the same time) as the dead on the last day when Christ comes to re-claim his Kingdom?
In Revelations 20 a spiritual battle takes place where satan is bound for a long time, during which only the “beheaded martyrs” (priests of God and Christ) are risen to minister to God in heaven. After satan is released for a short time, then the dead in Christ are risen. Then and only then the Kingdom of God is re-established on earth and living in Christ go out to meet Christ.
The concept of a pre-tribulation can be traced to John Darby in 1830. For some 1800-years prior to this the concept was unknown. Darby suggests that there will be “rapture” prior to the time of tribulation, later picked up by Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. He based this on his observance of Margaret MacDonald, a 14-year old, in a levitation séance in 1830. (Cf. Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot) This is not a conditions I would call conducive to a revelation by the Holy Spirit.
As Fred has stated, multiple times, we will never know the time or place of his coming, "but of that day and hour no one knoweth: no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone." (Matt 24:36)
JoeT
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I think you are really wrong. First I have NO IDEA where you get your info on John Darby but let me assure you, I grew up in the Plymouth Brethren. They followed closely the teachings of John Darby. For you to even THINK that John Darby would get his information from a girl in a trance or vision or whatever it was it LAUGHABLE. His teachings are so straight laced... if it wasn't in the WORD... he didn't TEACH it. YOU ERR BIG on this one. Besides that this girl had the vision in 1830... he was preaching the rapture in 1827... it had NOTHING to DO with the vision. I will go a step further and say that John Darby believed that everything that God wanted to reveal to us he did so in the Bible. I sincerely doubt he even BELIEVED the girl.
Look the Apostle Paul is the first to teach of the catching away in the new testament.. 1 Thess. What exactly do you think Paul is speaking of in those passages anyway?
You are correct NO ONE knows the DAY OR THE HOUR... but the Lord Himself said we could know the signs and when he is at the DOOR.
Look it up yourself: Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot. Google the name "Margaret MacDonald"Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
JoeT
Sorry but he is full of phooy. No way... just because DAVE MacPherson said so.. don't make it so. Bummer.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
So, show me "phooey"? It would seem to me that such phooey would be easily discounted. I've supported each statement with scripture or other reliable sources. ClassyT, on the other hand, only seems to provide phooey. Surly your convictions are based on more, where's the beef.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
JoeT
They are all biblical and you know it. ( I'm referring to 1 and 11 Thess. PAUL TAUGHT IT FIRST.. (the catching away) You don't believe... I do. I wasn't calling YOU phooy I was calling Dave MacPherson that. Look, I grew up under John Darby's teachings... I oughtta know what the guy believes. He wouldn't even so much as acknowledge a vision in the Church period. He didn't believe in modern day prophets... I'm telling you he was a straight laced maybe even bording legalistic. He was very very knowledgeable in the Word. He was not at ALL into visions or dreams.. he believed like I said before that EVERYTHING that GOD wanted to reveal to us was in the Word. You haven't provided anything more than what DAVE McPhearson says. I suggest you actually READ some of John Darby's writings before you judge him. He started teaching the rapture in 1827... 3 years before the girl with the vision. And that is all I am going to say about that... ( kind of like forrest gump)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1Thes 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)
I have never said that the rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are the same event.
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)
You have not addressed this passage so far. Fred said it applied to angels, but I reject that. In Revelation glorified men are sometimes called angels, even the pastors of the 7 churches are so called, but the Bible always identifies angels as such.
Please keep in mind that there will be one only return of Jesus to this planet with its clouds.
Therefore there will be NO rapture as it is being taught.
The rapture theory is a contradiction to Holy Scripture.
If you don't believe that, just wait and see, and I believe you will have a LONG wait of at least 100 years
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I don't know what hat you pull all these fantastic numbers out of, but I got to say it is entertaining to watch you falling off the pew.:D
Where does this now 100 years come into play?
Since Christ does call his church (the believers both living and dead in Christ) home How do you reconcile this same statement in the bible? Is the Bible lying?
I think you need to get your head out of the one religion you are stuck in and read and listen to some other denominations preachers for a while to understand the truth that is in the inspired word of God.
450donn,
Thanks but it should be obvious that the 100 years OR more is MY estimation according to the reasons I mentioned.
And I HAVE listen to other denomination preachers rant about the rapture including John Hagee several times.
I hear them struggle to put together enough pick and chose passage to appear to be convincing, but they are NOT because the bible clearly says that Jesus will return when least expected and ONLY one time.
By the way I do not fall off my pew because I don't have one in my church we have chairs.
But I do roll on the floor laughing at the rapture nuts who refuse to believe what Jesus says about himself.
Fred
Fred. You are getting all messed up in your doctrine.
The church will be called home. That is a fact. IF you had truly listened to people Like Hagee and many others with an open mind instead of the closed mind you are stuck in you and searched the scriptures and followed along for more than 15 minutes you would really understand. But I am preaching to the people who refuse to accept that maybe "the church" could be wrong on a lot of doctrine and therefore will not accept any other teachings.
So, let me ask you this,
Where does it say that you pray to Mary?
Or to some obscure saint?
What does the Bible teach about idols and idol worship?
Where does the Bible teach that sprinkling a baby is scriptural?
Those are your teachings are they not?
I don't accept them as biblical, but I sure am not going around spewing lies about you and your practice of doing it. Maybe you need to open your mind up to the big wide world of Gods teachings that are offered outside your church.
Sorry, I did not mean to get onto a rant. But it is very plain to see that the one sided rantings of several of the posts here are blindly biased and intended solely to influence people to YOUR way of thinking and not to explore the word of God in an open discussion.
450donn,
Sorry, but I have read books by bible experts who bb;ica;;y prove that the raptore is a trap, a hoax.
I believe THEM
My mind WAS open to the idea until I found out how wrong it is.
Fred
It’s probably because you don’t have an understanding of Catholics that you would suggest that the Catholics aren’t scripturally based. I’ve come to understand that Catholicism is a faith not only founded on Scripture but that Scriptural understanding is in harmony with Apostolic Tradition. No, we don’t accept other’s teachings unless of course they too can be shown to be in harmony with Scripture and Tradition.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Catholics believe that there is one Kingdom of God who are spiritually bond with the fateful in purgatory, and heaven; the mystical body of Christ. As such we look at the Church Militant (those on earth), the Church suffering (those in purgatory), and the Church triumphant (those in heaven) as one Church with Christ at its head. Just as you can turn to your pew mate and say, pray for me, we are in solidarity with members in heaven. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Communion of SaintsQuote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Catholics don’t worship idols.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
If perchance you’re referring to icons, we don’t worship them anymore than you worship the icons on your desk top – they are reminder of a saint or event in the life of Christ. Just like your desk top icons remind you of the programs they represent. Do you worship your computer? After all, there are icons on it! Silly isn’t it? CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Veneration of Images
I’ll let you read about this one. If you want to be immersed, that’s OK two. The matter and form of the baptism only requires water (the amount isn’t of issue) and a certain form that must invoke the Holy Trinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism
Assuming you are protestant, I’d say they were as much your teachings as ours up till 1520. Now think about this, there is a Catholic faith from the time of Christ till 1520 and all of a sudden icons become a spiritual problem? If you’re frightened by icons you are under no obligation to use them as a sacramental (reminder of holy things). The statues of saints don’t jump down from the walls and eat little children.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
The difference in our faiths is both superficial in one sense and very profound in another.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Roman Catechism
Well, those beliefs and tenets are Biblical as well as representing the very word of mouth teachings of the 12 Apostles and ultimately Christ himself. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: ScriptureQuote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
Ranting in my book is Ok; rant away. Just be kind enough to become informed. My bias isn’t blind, it’s deliberate, The Word of God written in Scriptures only truly comes alive with the discipline of Catholic teaching; each scripture harmonizing with another.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
JoeT
Joe T.
Well said.
Well presented.
Well Done.
You are right about Catholicism
Peace and kindness,
Fred
There was a controversy that raged over icons in the ancient world. Iconoclasm was, ultimately, anathematized. Interestingly, though, iconoclasm wasn't a Christian issue until the rise of Islam. It was principally promoted by Christians who had been influenced by Islam's prohibitions against images of any kind in worship.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Ps: The human person is itself an icon.
Akoue.
Thanks.
I did not know about Islam regarding Iconoclasm.
Also I did not realize that I and all others are icons.
I do realize that my alarm clock is an icon.
LOL
Fred
Not even near addressing the OP question
Thread closed
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