And since grace is unmerited favour, it cannot be by works or it would be something that we would merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
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And since grace is unmerited favour, it cannot be by works or it would be something that we would merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Rather than trying to obfuscate it with a lengthy commentary - just read what it says, especially the section that I highlighted in my previous post. It is very plain and explicit.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Then have a gander at Proverbs 30:5-6
The church spoke about in the Bible does. But that church is not a denomination, yours or any other denomination.Quote:
It sure is. But it is speaking about TEACHING sound doctrine. That is the Catholic model. In obedience to Christ's command, the Church teaches Jesus' gospel.
I see, wso you wish to take this out of the context of scripture, deny that salvation comes through the blood of Christ and say that if all we do nis good works, that we are saved.Quote:
It sure does say that God will give eternal life to those who persevere in good works. Read it again:
...the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
I disagree. As pointed out previously, the context is that good works follows salvation, and in that case, those who demonstrate their faith through faithfulness (which is what scripture says) will indeed be saved.
Now you're getting it. And if they are driven by faith, faith comes first.Quote:
First, our works are driven by faith. We believe and we act upon that belief.
I already did and I commented upon it very clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Doesn't say anything about Scripture. Remember, the Word of God can be spoken by men:Quote:
Then have a gander at Proverbs 30:5-6
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
The Catholic Church can be traced historically to Jesus Christ.Quote:
The church spoke about in the Bible does. But that church is not a denomination, yours or any other denomination.
I don't wish to say that. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to do anything to perfect our faith. But God says we must work:Quote:
I see, wso you wish to take this out of the context of scripture, deny that salvation comes through the blood of Christ and say that if all we do nis good works, that we are saved.
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Scripture is explicit. We are saved by our faith displayed in good works.Quote:
I disagree. As pointed out previously, the context is that good works follows salvation, and in that case, those who demonstrate their faith through faithfulness (which is what scripture says) will indeed be saved.
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
I never questioned that faith comes first. That is Catholic doctrine.Quote:
Now you're getting it. And if they are driven by faith, faith comes first.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
But faith must be accompanied by works or it is not a saving faith:
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Scripture is explicit. Faith alone is dead.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Tj3,
It's of more than passing interest to me what things you do, and what things you don't, reply to. I should have thought that if your view is as transparently true as you seem to suppose, by now you would have responded in a more substantive way to the objections I have raised. This doesn't reflect at all well on the prospects of the view you espouse.
Yes, grace is unmerited. The Catholic-Orthodox doctrine has always held this. From this, again (I keep pointing this out) it does not follow that faith and works together are not required for salvation. Good works require God's assistance, to wit, grace. Grace is a condition for BOTH faith and works. We cannot go it alone. Now I've been employing the most basic logical rules of inference throughout--I recently taught them to my six year old niece--but you seem almost stubbornly to refuse to reason carefully. And this is unfortunate. If Scripture is the word of God, then we all owe it better than sloppy reading and sloppy reasoning. Think of it as respect.
Your reply to De Maria once again veers rather wildly off-course. Nobody thinks that works ALONE save. I take it that De Maria means to make a case for the Catholic-Orthodox view that both faith and works together are required for salvation. You still have provided no pericope which states plainly that faith alone matters for salvation and works don't at all.
It's not at all clear to me what your frequent mention of "denominations" comes to. It is true that it has become something of a fad in recent years to decry "denominations"--the idea here sometimes seems to be that I can sit in a recliner with a beer in my hand and the Bible open in my lap and magically make sense of every jot and tittle without any real exertion or training. In any event, though, whether you agree with their teachings or not, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the only ones that date from the apostolic period, which is to say that if there are "denominations" out there, they must be the groups that in later centuries broke off from them (the gnostics, monophysites, protestants, et al.). And it is worth noting, again, that the only people in the ancient Christian communities who thought that a guy sitting alone in his room at night could penetrate the profundity of the Scriptures in their entirety were the gnostics--whom the Apostles themselves reproved. You claim that the Scriptures alone are your standard. But, of course, what I've shown is that it isn't the Scriptures that are a problem, it's your lax interpretations of them: So far, at least, you haven't shown yourself to be a good and careful reader. I think your latest reply to De Maria gives evidence of this.
De Maria,
Well said!!
Well done!!
By the way I often pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire me and I believe He has done so several times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
If grace is unmerited, then there is nothing that we can or need to do in terms of work to get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Which follows salvation. Scripture says that for us to do works pleasing to Him we must first be saved, and for the Holy Spirit to indwell and guide us to these good works, we must be saved.Quote:
From this, again (I keep pointing this out) it does not follow that faith and works together are not required for salvation. Good works require God's assistance, to wit, grace.
And this is a strawman argument because no one, including myself even suggested it.Quote:
Your reply to De Maria once again veers rather wildly off-course. Nobody thinks that works ALONE save.
Another strawman because I do not in any way oppose denominations. I oppose denominationalism.Quote:
It's not at all clear to me what your frequent mention of "denominations" comes to. It is true that it has become something of a fad in recent years to decry "denominations"--the idea here sometimes seems to be that I can sit in a recliner with a beer in my hand and the Bible open in my lap and magically make sense of every jot and tittle without any real exertion or training.
And that is an ad hominem.Quote:
You claim that the Scriptures alone are your standard. But, of course, what I've shown is that it isn't the Scriptures that are a problem, it's your lax interpretations of them: So far, at least, you haven't shown yourself to be a good and careful reader. I think your latest reply to De Maria gives evidence of this.
If and when it does, it will ALWAYS be in concert with God's written word.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Even IF that were true (which I dispute based upon scripture and historical sources) it would still say nothing about whether it's teachings are correct. The same would be true for any church or denomination. We must base our doctrine on the word of God. Note in the book of Revelation that there were churches which traced back to the time of Christ and the Apostles and indeed were in existence in the first century, and when even these churches failed to keep in step with Biblical doctrine, God warned them what would happen to them. They gained no special status because of their close connections to Jesus. Scripture makes it clear that no church (not the one that you attend, not the one that I attend, no church), no denomination and no man has special status in His eyes. We are all sinners, and some of us save through grace by believing in Him.Quote:
The Catholic Church can be traced historically to Jesus Christ.
Perfecting our faith means faith first exists. That is my point.Quote:
I don't wish to say that. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to do anything to perfect our faith. But God says we must work:
Right. I think that you are finally coming around. The evidence of our faith is displayed in good works.Quote:
Scripture is explicit. We are saved by our faith displayed in good works.
Then you agree that the good works are the result of our salvation.Quote:
I never questioned that faith comes first.
I think we can agree on this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
As I understand Scripture, without faith, we are not saved.Quote:
Then you agree that the good works are the result of our salvation.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Therefore faith comes before salvation.
And without works, we don't have faith.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Therefore works come with faith. And without works there is no faith.
So, if it is true that without works one doesn't have faith, and one must have faith before one is saved, how can good works be the result of salvation?
Sincerely,
De Maria
I am always happy to find a point of agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
When you are dligently seeking, you do not have faith. You only have faith once you are convinced of the truth and believe in the truth. You cannot have faith in something that you don't believe in.Quote:
As I understand Scripture, without faith, we are not saved.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Therefore faith comes before salvation.
This does not say that you don't have faith if you don't have works. It just repeats what we already agreed upon. Works are evidence of faith, and thus without the evidence, can you really say that the faith exists? That is all that it is saying. Of course we also have to recognize that even when a person is saved, they do not have works in the first second afterward, and maybe for some time thereafter. So even when dealing with the evidence of works, we need to be careful about how we judge.Quote:
And without works, we don't have faith.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
As am I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
How does that jive with this verse, which seems to equate the faithful with those who diligently seek God?Quote:
When you are dligently seeking, you do not have faith.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
As I understand it, St. Paul is saying that without faith one can't please God. Saying that positively, with faith one pleases God and God rewards that faithful one. In other words, God rewards the one who faithfully seeks Him.
Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?Quote:
You only have faith once you are convinced of the truth and believe in the truth. You cannot have faith in something that you don't believe in.
What does it mean then, faith without works is dead?Quote:
This does not say that you don't have faith if you don't have works.
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
No. Therefore, if faith is needed to be saved. And there is no evidence of faith without works. Can we say that one who claims to be faithful is saved?Quote:
It just repeats what we already agreed upon. Works are evidence of faith, and thus without the evidence, can you really say that the faith exists?
Is diligently seeking God a work?Quote:
That is all that it is saying. Of course we also have to recognize that even when a person is saved, they do not have works in the first second afterward, and maybe for some time thereafter. So even when dealing with the evidence of works, we need to be careful about how we judge.
James 2.24: "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" [ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon]. This *explicitly* states that we are not justified by faith alone (ouk ek pisteos monon).
Akoue,
Who wrote that passage? Check out who it wrote it too also.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
St. James, the brother of the Lord to the Twelve Tribes in the Church, the New Jerusalem. We are all Spiritual Semites and the Church is the redemption of Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Neither is there one Church for the Jews and another Church for the Gentiles. Jesus only made one Church:
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
DeMaria,
Yes, he was the brother of the Lord and he was writing to the 12 tribes. He didn't understand the church like the apostle Paul. He was still steeped in the Law. His wording even is very Jewish. He talks about true religion... Christianity isn't a religion it is a relationship. That doesn't mean the book is null and void but it needs to be put into context. ALSO... Faith without WORKS IS dead. BUT that doesn't mean our Faith is null and void... just dead. When I'm not living right... my spiritual life dies, but the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves me. We must rightly divide the WORD.
I see nothing there that says that those seeking have already found Him. That would not make logical sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.Quote:
Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?
James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV
Agreed. The "claim" is not the same as having faith. But that still does not say that works are required before one is saved.Quote:
No. Therefore, if faith is needed to be saved. And there is no evidence of faith without works. Can we say that one who claims to be faithful is saved?
That sounds a lot like the error of replacement theology (i.e. the belief that the church replaced Israel).Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Hi.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Well I definitely agree with that.Quote:
We must rightly divide the WORD.
The 12 Apostles of the Church now lead the 12 Tribes.Quote:
Yes, he was the brother of the Lord and he was writing to the 12 tribes.
Unless you can point to a Scripture that says that the Apostle St. James, who walked and talked with the Lord whose mother is his aunt, I'd have to question your statement.Quote:
He didn't understand the church like the apostle Paul.
As was St. Paul, a Pharisee born of Pharisees.Quote:
He was still steeped in the Law.
Scripture is infallible. The epistle of St. James is Scripture. If Scripture says that Christianity is a religion and you deny that, whom should I believe?Quote:
His wording even is very Jewish. He talks about true religion... Christianity isn't a religion
No doubt.Quote:
it is a relationship.
It's a wonderful book which contradicts Luther's doctrines. That's why Luther considered it the epistle of straw. Do you share that attitude towards the Epistle of St. James?Quote:
That doesn't mean the book is null and void but it needs to be put into context.
I can't wrap my head around that one.Quote:
ALSO... Faith without WORKS IS dead. BUT that doesn't mean our Faith is null and void... just dead.
Then what gives life to your "spiritual life"? The Holy Spirit doesn't die, does it? Are you hooked up to another Spirit which I don't know about?Quote:
When I'm not living right... my spiritual life dies, but the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves me.
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
As I understand Scripture, if the Holy Spirit is in me, my spirit is alive. But if the Holy Spirit is not in me, my spirit is dead.
I hope that makes sense.
Sincerely,
De Maria
We don't believe that is an error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rev 18 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
The Church is the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem:
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Demaria,
The Holy Spirit never leaves me. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. James was the Lord's brother... they have the same mother. AND... when I'm not feeding my spirit, doing the things that I know that I should, my faith is not active... kinda dead. That doesn't me the Lord leaves me... I just need to repent and get up and start over. James doesn't say Christianity IS a religion... so you should believe the Bible.
One does not seek for something they know doesn't exist, do they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I asked:
And you answered:Quote:
Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?
I don't see the relationship between my question and your response to it.Quote:
Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.
James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV
My understanding is that Scripture says that works are required for faith.Quote:
Agreed. The "claim" is not the same as having faith. But that still does not say that works are required before one is saved.
And faith is required for salvation.
But notice that in the verse I quoted above, James is saying not that faith without works is dead, that it is not a living faith. He clearly and unequivocally affirms that we are not justified by faith alone: "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone".Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I'm glad you are so confident in the Lord. However, Scripture seems to warn that others who "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit" that they can lose their salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who
were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come,
Does this describe the saved?
6If they shall fall away,
Does that mean they can fall away? And thereby lose salvation, because remember, it is impossible:
to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Let me know what you think.
Sincerely,
De Maria
DeMaria,
That is a very sobering verse indeed. But again, what were the jews doing? What was Paul addressing. These Jewish people were offering up sacrifices after the Perfect sacrifce had given up his life. I like you DeMaria. You have a good heart and I feel like you aren't just here to argue the point.
Please explain that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Thank you. I'm enjoying our exchange as well.Quote:
I like you DeMaria. You have a good heart and I feel like you aren't just here to argue the point.
Read Romans 11. Paul speaks quite explicitly against that error.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
All the time. Did the explorers in the 15th century KNOW what they would find?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Do scientists who continue to do research KNOW what they will find?
Have you not ever read of the numbers of folk who opposed God and yet sought the truth? Did they know where it would lead?
Many people seek after God (Like Saul in the NT) and find Him but were not expecting what they found.
You were suggesting that a person who was seeking had faith based upon your suggestion that if they sought, they believed that what they sought existed.Quote:
Quote:
Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?Quote:
I asked:
I don't see the relationship between my question and your response to it.Quote:
Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.Quote:
and you answered:
James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV
That is exactly what the demons say about God, but they do not believe in Him (i.e. do not have faith in Him), just as those who seek do not have faith in Him. How can they - they don't know Him if they are seeking Him.
You can believe it but that does not make it true.Quote:
My understanding is that Scripture says that works are required for faith.
And faith is required for salvation.
Columbus was seeking India which he knew existed but stumbled upon America. The Conquistadors were seeking for the Fountain of Youth which they believed was in Florida and for gold they believed was in South American and Mexico.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Which explorers do you refer to who seek for something which they don't believe exists?
Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?Quote:
Do scientists who continue to do research KNOW what they will find?
Since I was one of those, yes, I thought I knew where it would lead me. But in the end, I wound up where I didn't expect.Quote:
Have you not ever read of the numbers of folk who opposed God and yet sought the truth? Did they know where it would lead?
What I mean is, when I was atheist, I knew I was right. Now I know that I was wrong.
How does that speak to the question we are discussing? Do people seek after that which they don't believe exists?Quote:
Many people seek after God (Like Saul in the NT) and find Him but were not expecting what they found.
Saul believed that God existed and sought after him. He simply didn't realize that he was seeking after God in the wrong way until God knocked him off his horse.
Correct. I don't think people seek after that which they believe doesn't exist. They seek after that which they believe exists because they don't know where or how to find it.Quote:
You were suggesting that a person who was seeking had faith based upon your suggestion that if they sought, they believed that what they sought existed.
The demons know that God exists and they know where He is. They are not seeking Him. In fact, they are seeking to escape from Him.Quote:
That is exactly what the demons say about God, but they do not believe in Him (i.e. do not have faith in Him), just as those who seek do not have faith in Him. How can they - they don't know Him if they are seeking Him.
Can I say the same about what you believe? Or not?Quote:
You can believe it but that does not make it true.
This speaks to the remnant of the Jews who did not leave Judaism and join the Lord and the Apostles in the Church. It is very clear that they were cut away:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
They can ALSO be grafted back in IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF. But it won't be to the same Old Testament Covenant. But to the Covenant of Jesus Christ which is mediated by the Church.
Careful - read all of what it says:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Rom 11:17-19
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
NKJV
NOWHERE here does it support the idea that the church becomes Israel. In fact it is quite explicit in its warning against the doctrine.
Some of the branches refers to the fact that many Jews left Israel and converted to the Christian faith. Those that didn't were broken off:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
I believe it does. And elsewhere also:Quote:
and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
NKJV
NOWHERE here does it support the idea that the church becomes Israel. In fact it is quite explicit in its warning against the doctrine.
Hebrews 8 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
He was not looking for India, but rather trying to find a route non-existent route to India which he HOPED existed. Others just set out to find out what was there. Read about Cook, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Once again, believing and "believing in" something are vastly different.Quote:
Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?
Often they seek without an idea of what they will find.Quote:
How does that speak to the question we are discussing? Do people seek after that which they don't believe exists?
Exactly.Quote:
Saul believed that God existed and sought after him. He simply didn't realize that he was seeking after God in the wrong way until God knocked him off his horse.
Exactly. So just believing is not good enough. You must believe in God.Quote:
The demons know that God exists and they know where He is. They are not seeking Him. In fact, they are seeking to escape from Him.
Absolutely. I often tell people on-line and when I speak in public NOT to believe something because I say it, but to check things out for themselves.Quote:
Can I say the same about what you believe? Or not?
In the OT we are told that the gospel would also go to the Gentiles. So? The Gentiles believers are grafted into the tree of... what? ISRAEL!Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Stop here for a moment. Who is the covenant made with? The church? NO - ISRAEL!Quote:
I believe it does. And elsewhere also:
Hebrews 8 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Now, how long was the covenant to last - until the Jews stop following the covenant?Quote:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
NO -
Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 "If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."
NKJV
Isa 61:8-9
8 "For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed."
NKJV
This verse seems to say that hope is more than faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
2 Corinthians 10:15
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
According to this, hope comes when faith is increased.
So if one hopes to find a route, it is because he already believes that route exists. He already has faith that route exists. And now he is exercising that faith by searching for that route.
How does that answer my question?Quote:
Once again, believing and "believing in" something are vastly different.
Quote:
Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?
Perhaps you are correct. But knowing the business mind as I believe I do, I doubt that anyone will lend money to a venture that they don't have some assurance will succeed.Quote:
Often they seek without an idea of what they will find.
??Quote:
So just believing is not good enough. You must believe in God.
To the root. The root is God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
The wild tree was grafted in to the root.
To whom is the New Covenant offered. Who rejected the New Covenant.Quote:
Stop here for a moment. Who is the covenant made with? The church? NO - ISRAEL!
John 1
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Until Jesus fulfilled the Covenant.Quote:
Now, how long was the covenant to last - until the Jews stop following the covenant?
NO -
Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Galatians 2:19Quote:
36 "If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."
NKJV
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Deuteronomy 28:37Quote:
Isa 61:8-9
8 "For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed."
NKJV
And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
1 Kings 9:7
Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
Psalm 44:14
Thou makest us a byword among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.
And if you keep reading Jer 31, you'll see that the Old Israel will be destroyed and the New City, the New Jerusalem will be lifted in its place to last forever. This is a prophecy of Christ's Church.
38Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
This is not speaking of hope that their region of ministry will be increased. This is not speaking of salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The only thing that we can draw from what you are saying is that you believe you are right despite the evidence. Burt nonetheless it does not help your argument because scipture is clear that believing is not the same as believing in God.Quote:
So if one hopes to find a route, it is because he already believes that route exists. He already has faith that route exists. And now he is exercising that faith by searching for that route.
That is a dramatic change of topic.Quote:
Perhaps you are correct. But knowing the business mind as I believe I do, I doubt that anyone will lend money to a venture that they don't have some assurance will succeed.
I'm trying to see the present discussion in light of the OP...
There is, I think we all agree, a meaningul distinction to be made between believing something and believing in something, in the sense of having faith. I believe that 2+2=4, and I believe in the laws of arithmetic. But the sense in which I believe in the laws of arithmetic is different from the sense of "believe in" in which I believe in God. Faith involves, among other things, commitment of a sort that isn't in play in the arithmetic case.
But, however me may discriminate between belief (I believe that p), or even belief + psychological certainty (I'm really certain that p), faith involves a kind of commitment that isn't obligatory in cases of mere belief. I understand the second chapter of James to say that we can have faith in the absence of works, but in a deficient way, to wit, that it is not a living faith. This is why we are told not to buy in to the idea that justification is by faith alone, precisely because were it alone it would be a dead faith, it would be faith in only a very attenuated sense of the word "faith".
The branches are the same as the root:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Rom 11:16-17
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
NKJV
Rom 11:24
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
NKJV
If you say that the root is God, then so are the branches including those cut off.
That is not what scripture says:Quote:
The wild tree was grafted in to the root.
Rom 11:23-25
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
NKJV
Some wild branches were grafted onto the true where some natural brahces were cut off.You keep forgetting that the covenant with Israel is everlasting. It depends upon God's fathfulness not that if the Jews.Quote:
To whom is the New Covenant offered. Who rejected the New Covenant.
If lack of faithfulness was a reason for rejection, then the Gentiles have no claim to the covenant.
My point is that hope, according to my understanding of that verse, requires greater faith. You said that the explorers "hoped" to find the routes that they didn't know existed. If they hoped to find them then they had faith that they existed even though they didn't know where they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This translates to seeking God. Those who "hope" to find Him will seek diligently for Him although they might be seeking in shadows until they get to the light.
I am using the evidence to support my explanations. Explorations were a business venture then as now. Business men didn't go out to search for things which they didn't believe existed because they would LOSE MONEY. They wanted to make money. And not just a little. They wanted to be rich. Then as now, it doesn't make sense to risk fortunes on risky ventures.Quote:
The only thing that we can draw from what you are saying is that you believe you are right despite the evidence.
?? I have no idea what that means. Are you comparing "believing in anything else besides God" to "believing in God"?Quote:
Burt nonetheless it does not help your argument because scipture is clear that believing is not the same as believing in God.
If not, what do you mean?
If so, where is this concept in Scripture?
Really? Didn't you bring up explorers of the 15th century? And weren't they business men seeking to make a fortune or sent by businessmen and Kings seeking to make a profit?Quote:
That is a dramatic change of topic.
It is not even talking about the same thing nor is it saying what you claim. You are taking it entirely out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I think you are grasping at straws bigtime. Now you seem to promoting have faith in nothing.Quote:
You said that the explorers "hoped" to find the routes that they didn't know existed. If they hoped to find them then they had faith that they existed even though they didn't know where they were.
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