No ones sins are forgiven through confession. They are only forgiven through receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour by means of the blood that he shed on the cross for our sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
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No ones sins are forgiven through confession. They are only forgiven through receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour by means of the blood that he shed on the cross for our sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
You did not read what it said. It says that we know Him and them keep His commandments. It is only through first being saved that we are even able to keep His commandments.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
Needinfo,
Very good point.
Thanks,
Fred
True, but "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness". You are covered for all past sins and sins not done willfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
True, trying to keep the law as Messiah did to earn your "forgiveness" is not possible.Quote:
And keeping most of it, but not all means that you are still guilty of all:
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point,] he is guilty of all.
NKJV
Right. The forgiveness of sin is entirely by grace.Quote:
Keeping the law has nothing to do with salvation:
Gal 2:16
"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
NKJV
Gal 2:21
"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV
Throughout your post you are referring to the first step which is justification/salvation/forgiveness etc. The first step qualifies you to run the race, you still have to make it to the finish line to receive eternal life.Quote:
Further, note that the law is not for those who are saved:
1 Tim 1:9-11
the law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV
But it is for the unsaved to lead them to Christ by showing them how far they are away from God's standard:
Gal 3:24-25
Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV
Paul knew it:
Phill 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Although Paul made his confession and preached to many he still was hoping to qualify for the resurrection. He knew there was more to eternal life than justification.
The reality is that you have 1/2 the "Good News". You know how to have your sins forgiven, but you don't know the way that leads to eternal life.Quote:
The worst of it is, if you place yourself under the law by trying to keep the law rather than depending solely upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, then you are judged by the law, and as Romans 3:23 says, there is no hope for those who choose to place themselves under the law.
Is our Saviour a liar?
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YHWH: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
C'mon, it should be in red in your Scriptures. Trust Him, He knows
Ok, maybe we can agree that at some point one needs to keep the commandments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I sure hope you are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We should, but no one has, therefore to say that we need to is incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
Needinfo,
You have made some excellent points.
Well said, well done.
We must DO what Jesus, our savior, told us to DO.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Ah, but you did not say what we confess or who to! And it is not the confession which cleanses our sins, but the blood that He shed on the cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV
What we need to confess is to Jesus that we are sinners with no hope outside of His sacrifice on the cross, and to confess that we submit ourselves to Him as Lord.
Just any confession doesn't do it.
We can not ear our way to heaven.
But we can and should try our best to Do all that Jesus told us to do.
A good strong faith will help us do those things.'
Faith and doing what we should gives us the true hope of salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Where did it say ONLY all past sins? It says ALL unrighteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
Quote:
True, trying to keep the law as Messiah did to earn your "forgiveness" is not possible.
We are making progress.Quote:
Right. The forgiveness of sin is entirely by grace.
But what is it that scripture refers to by running the race? Scripture is clear that it has nothing to do with keeping all the commandments, or that would leave out Paul:Quote:
Throughout your post you are referring to the first step which is justification/salvation/forgiveness etc. The first step qualifies you to run the race, you still have to make it to the finish line to receive eternal life.
Rom 7:19-23
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
NKJV
Are you saying that Paul went to hell?
Are you saying that there is more to the gospel to be saved than God said in His word?Quote:
The reality is that you have 1/2 the "Good News". You know how to have your sins forgiven, but you don't know the way that leads to eternal life.
John 6:36-38
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
NKJV
But you say that we may be cast out.
Rom 5:8-9
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
NKJV
Justified by His blood we shall be saved from wrath. But you say that there is more than God said.
Acts 16:30-31
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
NKJV
Did Paul forget to tell him the rest?
Did you read the rest? Next it says:Quote:
Is our Saviour a liar?
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YHWH: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matt 19:19-22
20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
NKJV
Now before we go on, we need to point out that the young man lied. He had not kept the commandments, and here is why I know:
1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
NKJV
So Jesus showed that He is fact fell short and was not able to be saved by keeping the law. Now let's look at the rest of the discussion:
Matt 19:23-27
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
NKJV
Note that Jesus said that keeping the commandments would not bring the young man to salvation - it was not possible.
No our Saviour is not a liar. He was right and you were wrong!
Thanks Fred. We are all in this together, no one gets a pass on Judgment Day. You would think we would want to embrace the truth. Paul sure did. After killing Israelites, he did a 360 on the Damacus road and said "Master, what wilt thou have me to do?". He accepted the truth without hesitation.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Shalom/Peace
Correction: Everyone needs to or else they will not be admitted into the Kingdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
These have kept the commandments:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
These have been a law unto themselves:
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Romans 3:4 ".. let YHWH be true, but every man a liar;
How can anyone argue when the Scriptures are so clear?
Romans 3:25Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of YHWH;
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Galatains 6:7
Be not deceived; YHWH is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
You cannot say you are "saved" then go and fornicate and come home and ask for forgiveness. You have sinned wilfully and YHWH will not be mocked. This concept about "wilfull sin" ought to be intuitive.
P.S.-So if anyone is they need to stop and repent now.
Then, according to Romans 3:23, there is no hope. Your gospel is therefore not the "good news", but a condemnation.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
Where does it say that they kept all His commandments? Because scripture says that anyone who says that is a liar.Quote:
These have kept the commandments:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
1 John 1:10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV
Have you kept all the commandments?
You did not answer the question. Where does scripture say that the sacrifice on the cross ONLY pays for our past sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
That is what you claimed.
First let me repeat what was a problem for Gentiles who spoke the same language as Paul yet 1,950 years ago still misunderstood him. As Peter points out:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
The Scriptures say "judge a man by his fruits"
Let's examine some of Paul's fruit:
I Corinthians 5:7-8 7 “Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”
Why is Paul telling Gentile converts to keep the Passover Feast? Are not the feasts done away with for "Christians"? Why would they learn anything about the law that had passed away for "Christians"
I Corinthians 10:16 “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Messiah?”
The cup of blessing is a toast in the Passover Seder meal. Corinth was a prosperous, pagan and immoral city whose "Christian church" was dominated by Gentile converts. How and why do these Gentile converts know about the Passover celebration if they are not to keep the feasts?
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to YHWH: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Paul determines to give the Gentiles 4 cores concepts from the Levitical law and states they will learn the rest of "Moses" every sabbath day in the synagogues. Does it seem strange that over the past 2,000 years this contradiction has not been address by "the church"?
Acts 24:5-6 “For we have found this man (Paul) a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.”
The Nazarenes are Israelites that believed Yahushua was the Messiah. Epiphanius an early church member has this to say about them:
"We shall now especially consider heretics who call themselves Nazarenes; they are mainly Jews and nothing else. They make use not only of the New Testament, but they also use in a way the Old Testament of the Jews. For they do not forbid the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Writings...so that they are approved of by the Jews, from whom the Nazarenes do not differ in anything, and they do profess all the dogmas pertaining to the prescriptions of the Law and the customs of the Jews, except they believe in Messiah. They preach that there is but One YHWH and His Son Yahushua. They are learned in the Hebrew language, for they, like the Jews, read the whole Law, then the Prophets...They differ from the Jews because they believe in Messiah, and from the Christians in that they are to this day bound to the Jewish rites such as circumcision, the Sabbath and other ceremonies."
According to the Scripture, Paul is the ringleader of this sect of Nazarenes.
I have a lot more but I don't want to lose your focus.
No one except for the Messiah "kept the law" perfectly, but if they sinned they had to sacrifice an animal to make atonement. That is "keeping the law". You strive to do what you are required when you miss (without premeditation) you can be forgiven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
If the ruler had told a lie to Messiah He would have told him to his face. You make Messiah a liar by your interpretation; if He said "go and do this and you will be perfect" then Messiah is a liar according to your reasoning. Your argument is flawed based on that.
You are clearly wrong here. Messiah was asked a point blank question. "How do I inherit eternal life?" There are 3 parallel accounts Mathew 19:16-26, Mark 10:17-27 and Luke 18:18-27. In Mark and Luke, Messiah states "one thing thou lackest", not "it is impossible". He could not say it if it were not true. He was required to keep the commandments plus sell all he had because of covetousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Study to shew thyself approved unto YHWH, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Needinfo,
If you were rightly dividing the Word, you wouldn't be mixing law with grace.
Do you follow the law? Do you not eat pork and follow the sabbath. Many Christians do... they are in error.
Note:
I say this all the time and I am sure people get sick of me repeating... but you need to understand who the writer is and who they are speaking to. Got to put everything in context. :)
You are missing the concept. I will repeat an example I gave before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You are guilty of murder. You by going out and helping the poor, volunteering, etc. (doing good works) are still guilty of murder. You have broken the law. You are arrested. Your good works did not/can not save you from the electric chair. Only a pardon from the Governor who has the authority can save you. You repent of the crime of murder and ask for forgiveness. The Governor grants your parole. And says "Go and do not violate any more laws." Can you go out and commit murder again? Of course not!
- Being a murderer is you before accepting Messiah. Strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without YHWH in the world:
- Your "good works" could not save you from the electric chair (going to hell)
- You repent and the Governor (YHWH) forgives you.
- You were given mercy because you had a troubled background and didn't know any better.
- You were a Gentile a far off but now are "grated in"
- Now that you know better you cannot knowingly violate anymore laws (you must keep the commandments).
You are forgiven by grace not by keeping the law. Period. But how do you conduct yourself going forward? You strive to keep the commandments because that is your Father's will. Those our the laws of the new country you want to be a citizen of. Most Christians are keeping the 10 commandments but they need to add the 7 festivals and dietary laws. The rest are mostly not applicable.
needinfo,
Jesus said this to us... I will never leave you or forsake you. Notice he didn't put one single condition such as... I will never leave you or forsake you as long as you don't forsake me. The Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy spirit... now how can we be UNSEALED and at what poing does it happen? It is silly.
I do think that a Christian can sin and continue on in that sin without repenting. Sometimes the Lord takes him home because he is no longer a testimony. Paul even says that there is a sin unto death. You do not work for you salvation by keeping the law. Jesus said it the best hanging on the cross... IT IS FINISHED.
If thou shalt confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED.
It isn't hard to understand.. it is simple. WE make it hard when we refuse to rightly divide the word. Stop mixing law with grace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Remember a christain song from a few years ago:
"We fall down, but we get up. We fall down, but we get up. We fall down, but we get up. For a saint is just a sinner who fell down, but got up."
That is striving to keep the commandments, it is a process. You don't keep making the same mistake over and over again. You lost your temper and cursed. Confess it and ask for forgiveness and He is faithful and just to forgive you of all unrighteousness. But you must purpose not to curse anymore.
"Keeping" is making the mental assent to do it. You are trying, that is the point.
You have to examine the Scriptures in their entirety. Here is a partial list of verses that contradict "once saved always saved" or "eternal life by grace":Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear YHWH, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For YHWH shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Phil 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Rev3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his agents.
You are not earning eternal life you are complying with what the King has ordered. You can't make up your own laws and live in America. You are not a ruler unto yourself; they are outside the gate.
I didn't realize we were going to play a semantics game. The intent of my post is to distinguish between willful sin and sin that was done in ignorance. "Past sins" implies sins done before you knew any better or before you came to repentance. "Willfull sins" are those done with pre-meditation. I am stating that those will not be forgiven. If you doubt what I am saying, here's a simple test. Go out tonight and commit some type of physical sin on purpose. Come home and pray for forgiveness. Then on Judgment Day confidently ask the Father to show you the verse that condemns you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Gee, you got me there. You are stuck on the opening act; I talking about the finale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I take it you are convinced that the law is not applicable to anyone anymore? If the law is done away with why is it being kept during the Millennial Reign?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Master of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Overheard in 30AD
YHWH: "Hey, Israel. Remember those 4,000 years when I told you to keep my law throughout your generations. I was only kidding. I must have had a brain fart. I was young then. All you have to do is believe real hard and then you can eat pork, break the sabbath, basically do whatever you want. Just ignore all the prophecies of being decieved in the last days. I didn't know what I was doing again. Oh, but the tithe, that one you need to keep doing. Well, Got to go make room for all the worldly christians that will be raptured out. Wouldn't want them to have to endure anything. Their special. Not everyone can believe real hard like them."
Do all believe The Word is Christ? Do all believe The Word was made Flesh? Do all believe The Word is the Bread of Life? The Bread and The Blood are what we eat and drink. Both must be found worthy in Christ or we are double minded.
James 4:5-6 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
To walk in Christ after baptism is newness of life, and we are to remain in the light. The light is Christ. Christ gave us a lamp for our path in The Word/Flesh/Bread of Life.
Psalms 119:104-115 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments. My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law. The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they [are] the rejoicing of my heart. I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes always, even unto the end. SAMECH. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.
James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
needinfo08 - I have just one question that I do hope you will answer. Have you ever willfully sinned since becoming a believer?
I definitely don't want to lie. But when I first became a beleiver, I did something that I may have not been sure was wrong but after I did it I felt the worst conviction in my spirit and never again came close to a repeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
I think there are degrees to things also. You may see a beautiful woman and as a reflex stare but when you become aware of it, you need to stop. If you feel the unction from the Spirit to turn away and you think to yourself "forget that", then there is a problem. Habitually ignoring the Spirit will lead to a problem. But adultery, fornication, idolatry I think are more serious and might be a 1 strike your out. Of course, these are my views but I know we can't ignore the Spirit forever and expect to be Blessed.
needinfo - I love the fact that you were willing to be a little forthcoming about your personal life. I didn't ask to embarrass you but to put your own theology on the spot.
Your answer is revealing, though. You claim to have had only one experience since you became a believer in which you may have sinned willfully, but it really doesn't sound like an admission of guilt. Frankly, I find it really hard to believe that there could be only one occasion in your life as a Christian where you sinned willfully. Again, I'm not saying this to embarrass you but I just don't think you are being honest with yourself.
Secondly, I note your hesitation to speak confidently about your position on willful sins leading to condemnation: "But adultery, fornication, idolatry I think are more serious and MIGHT be a 1 strike your out." You said MIGHT... why are you so tentative to speak confidently about your real position? Your position is that you cannot receive eternal life if you sin willfully after you receive the truth. By your own logic and theology, you would be disqualified from eternal life due to your own willful sin after becoming a believer. And you admitted that you did sin willfully after you became a believer. My friend, either there is 1 strike you're out as you put it, or there aren't any strikes. It can't be both and I sense that you're hesitancy in being confident in your position stems from the fact that you realize that you are a sinner and that if God were keeping strikes against you, it would be game over for you.
I'm just trying to be honest and help you see the real implications of your own theology as it relates to your life.
By the way, I know I have sinned willfully since becoming a believer but I don't say that glibly... I do desire to follow God and do His will.
How did you get to "there aren't any strikes"?Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
Maybe we will be judged by the level of our understanding of things at different points in our walk(judges based on your heart). I don't know. I do know that the Spirit leads me and convicts me of sin.
Rev 2:23 "... know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:
and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
I personally think that physical sins are on a short leash because of what Paul says:
1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Set-Apart Spirit which is in you, which ye have of YHWH, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore esteem YHWH in your body, and in your spirit, which are YHWH's.
Obviously, I don't know everything, but I think what I have presented is valid. The Scriptures say, YHWH will not be mocked and you reap what you sow. If you continue to fornicate, worship idols, blaspheme, lie, etc. the gates to the Kingdom will be closed to you. You can bank on that. I make a distinction between mental and physical sins because the Scriptures do. I would say I have not willfully physically sinned but like I said I was not certain at the time. But then again the Spirit is still with me so either I didn't sin willfully or there is a learning curve.
Was there ever a time when I felt the Spirit tell me something and I said "No"? I don't think so. I am not emphatic because I don't want to be wrong in my recollection and have to answer for it. I am fallible. The Spirit had led me to fast for 10 days with nothing but water. I didn't know how long I was to fast in the beginning and after about 5 days I really felt like saying no. But I did not. That and when I was told to stop smoking cold turkey after 17 years were 2 of the hardest things I was asked to do.
One thing is for sure, there is more to being a believer than what is taught at most "churches". And it took me years to piece all these things together (including things that I have talked about yet) so I don't expect people to drop what they believe overnight. But there is no denying that there is truth to what I am saying, it is stirring us in the face whenever you open the Scriptures.
Ok... fine. I'm not going to convince you of anything and now you are being rude and condescending... Gee. Wonder if that is a willful sin? Naah couldn't be... you don't do that anymore. LOL ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
Sorry you are offended. My point was to show how implausible that theology is through satire. You have to admit that is pretty much what would have to have taken place for the law to be replaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
[QUOTE= It has got to be apparent that something more is required than just the forgiveness of your sins. You have to meet some standard or else you are hurt by the second death or blotted out of the book of life.[/QUOTE]
Maybe our difference in only on the concept of "required" which you used in the above quote.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote a book on "The Cost of Discipleship". In it he addressed what he called "cheap grace". I believe this "cheap grace" is what you are addressing. There are, indeed, many who call themselves Christians because one day they heard the word of free salvation, rejoiced in it, and then went back to their own way. Jesus tells of them in the parable of the seed/word scattered in the field. Most who "received" the Word had no productive life in the kingdom of God. The Word died in and with them.
But those who received the word were said to be the "good soil". They were productive in the kingdom of God and bore much fruit.
Are we talking about this difference? : People who think that they are saved because they met Jesus one day and then returned to their sinful lives vs those who left everything and followed Him for the rest of their lives?
We can't do much for the "rocky soil...thistle" people.
And those who HAVE given their lives to their Lord only need encouragement to keep trusting in Him as the one who strengthens us during the times when God seems absent for a time.
John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires ?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
NIV
Rom 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
NIV
Need,Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
Hey, I am NOT offended. ANDI was using sarcasm to show you that you willfully sin whether you choose to call it that or not. My point is to show you how preposterous your claims that the Holy Spirt can leave a born again believe... that is the whole point of being born again. We are sealed with Christ Spirit to do things that we could NEVER do in the flesh. We live in the age of Grace and that is a much higher standard than the law... fyi. To say that the Holy Spirit suddenly leaves a believer really is nuts. At what point does he do this? How far is too far. Please.
I am free to eat pork and I do. I don't follow the sabbath because I am not a Jew under the law. I am not willfully sinning... I am rightly dividing the Word of truth. But I have been round and round this mountain with a few others. I never convinced them... and they never ever convinced me. So... you can put yourself under the law if you wish. ME? I am going to go whip up some fried pork chops for dinner. :D
I like what you are saying and I hope you are right. I have agonized over this for years. There are just some verses that I cannot get out of my mind. However, Romans is a Chapter I have not read much so maybe I will dig into it again. We are in definite agreement that about "cheap grace" though.Quote:
Originally Posted by revdrgade
Peace
needinfo08.
You are right again.
Don't let Tj3 mislead you as he has others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
That sacrifice did nothing to pay the price for sin:Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
Heb 10:3-6
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
NKJV
So now you call Paul a leader of heretics, and calling the Nazarenes heretics! Wow. Perhaps you'd like to validate your claims from scripture. BTW, your quote is from a man who lived in the 4th century - Paul lived in the 1st century.Quote:
Originally Posted by needinfo08
That says more than I could even say in exposing how far off base you are.
Remember Paul was called by God to write the largest portion of the New Testament.
BTW, it is not Paul who in scripture is called a Nazarene:
Matt 2:19-23
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child's life are dead." 21 Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
NKJV
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