And before you ask I lost my faith in the bible along time ago and I probably never get it back now!
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And before you ask I lost my faith in the bible along time ago and I probably never get it back now!
This is not the discussion board. Please stay on topic which is to deal with the question raised in the OP, not to attack other participatants or their beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakkieRob
Tj3,
Please get it right, Tom Smith,
It is nor my personal interpretation as yours is.
I believe the bible literally.
The bible literally says that faith without works is dead.
No matter what you say or try to refute the bible will not change.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, you are telling me that those verses mean the opposite of what they say.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Then explain how you come to the conclusion that these verses do not mean what they say.Quote:
I believe the bible literally.
Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
Rom 7:4-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV
John 15:4-5
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
NKJV
It does indeed. What it does not say is that faith with works saves. Why do you keep repeating this one after your private interpretation has been refuted so many times, over so many years on so many boards?Quote:
The bible literally says that faith without works is dead.
First and foremost, as I showed previously in this thread,the Greek ford for "faith" is the same word as "faithfulness". Thus "faithfulness without works is dead". If you are claiming to have faith in God and we see no works as evidence, then you are not being faithful to your professing or to God, therefore do you really have faith?
Scripture does not contradict itself. You cannot take one verse out of context and then ignore Ephesians 2:8, for example.
Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
No matter what you say or try to refute the bible will not change.
Look I wasn't being nasty because if I were I would have used the devils name OK!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I will try to stay on track just need conversion!
My point was that this is not the discussion board and there are rules of interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakkieRob
Tj3,
Are you of the Christian Faith I just said I was sorry what do you want out of me blood:(
I did not see you say that you were sorry, but nonetheless that is not necessary. I would just like to see you join in the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by WakkieRob
And yes, I am a Christian.
Tj3,
I'm sorry but I do not agree with you.
Some times I do but often not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
You are of course welcome to have your own interpretations. It is unfortunate, though, that you are unwilling to explain how you came to those interpretations.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
Don't try to twist that. The IS a false accusation.
I do and have posted biblically why I believe as I do.
I see you are back at your old self again.
How sad.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred - look at this thread. I asked you several times to explain how you came to your personal interpretation of the verses that I quoted and you didn't. But I do respect your right to hold your own interpretations.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3 -
Hey man, just let it go... I understand what you are getting at and I personally respect your commitment to sound biblical interpretation. But you have to just drop back and punt sometimes because not everyone is on the same page. I'm saying that because you are really starting to look foolish and unwise... I love you though, man; I respect what you are trying to do.
You know what you believe and carefully interepret and articulate that position but you cannot police others... you can try to argue your position and be helpful in showing others where they may be wrong and you can also be willing to allow people to challenge your own interpretations at times but where neither you or another is convinced the other is right, what can you do but just move on?
I'm saying this with respect and brotherly love.
Jakester,Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
Fred and I go back a long ways. I keep hoping someday that he will actually interact on scripture. Fred's refrain when challenged is to simply make all sorts of accusations, so it does not bother me.
Maybe it would be in order to define "salvation". Does it happen immediately as a result of a spiritual crisis, or does it happen over a period? Can we know that we are saved, or do we only hope that when our life here is finished, we will be saved?
This discussion of faith and works hinges on what we believe on the subject of salvation.
Do we need another thread?
Jakester,
Right on.
The prolelm with Tj3 id that he like to twist things and make false accusaons so much that it becomes annoying.
But I'm about to let it go and ignore him more. He is just a waste of time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Galveston1,
You are right.
And
If you think we need a new thread please start one.
I'd be interested in that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Just like I said Fred, you never change. When you cannot address scripture, you get nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
As you wish Fred. I remain willing to discuss scripture with you anytime. The door will never close.Quote:
But I'm about to let it go and ignore him more. He is just a waste of time.
Something weird happened to me when I was younger in my teens and I wonder if anyone can help and remember this word OK... it is impossible to float but when I woke from a dream one night I was face to the ceiling how or why did this happen to me.
WakkieRob,
I do not understand what you mean.
Almost every time I wake up from a dream, no matter what the drearm was, I face the ceiling.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
What I mean was I was floating in the air up against the ceiling and it was after a horrible dream I fell down on my bed then to the floor which really hurt so I know it wasn't a dream. Do you know what happened arcura
I wasn't on any medication or drinking or drugs either I will never forget it and that was one time out of a few different events
WakkieRob,
I think that you WERE dreaming and fell out of bed.
The reason I think that us because I have had similar experiences years ago.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
WakkieRob,
Was it like actually being in your dream and have all your senses functioning perfectlly all right or was it like really awake like you are now?
adam7gur,
Those are good questions for WakkieRob.
Thanks for asking them.
I'm interested in that dream and fall he had.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
One of the primary concerns of all Christians is rendered to the simple question, “how can I be saved” (Cf. Acts 16:30). Many Catholics would answer, “With fear and trembling work out your salvation in Christ.” (Phil. 2: 12) Our Catholic faith is that which works by Charity. (C.f. ST. Basil of Caesarea, Letter 295) There are many who believe that the effect of Adam's sin was to make man as a worm, totally depraved and in capable of holiness. Therefore, such a depraved man is incapable of working out his salvation. He must wait till his name shows up on the roles of God's predestined saints. Thus, the logic continues, since man is incapable of holiness, he cannot cooperate with God's will and once predestined to be saved God saves always. However, this logic sets a scriptural dichotomy between faith and works that was never intended by the writers.
It would seem to me that a Scripture deemed Holy, inspired by God would be in harmony, one theological principle relative to another. What are we to make of the theological principle of faith alone as “by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified” (Rom 3:20) compared with “So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.” (James 2:17) Are we to assume that the Holy Spirit was schizophrenic when he coined Scripture?
Obviously not; we're given the answer in the same chapter of Romans, “By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.” That is we should be, “mindful of the work of your faith and labour and charity: and of the enduring of the hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before God and our Father “ (1 Thess 1:3); i.e. the work of your faith is hope, charity, and most of all love of God.
So as James tells us, faith is of little value without work; So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?. 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?. (James 2:17-21) All of which gets me back to my original comment: God reaches out with his gift of faith, we in turn cooperate by reaching out for that gift for the love of God. Thus the working of a synergism between God's grace of faith and works of holiness
JoeT
Joe, it is interesting that none of the scripture that you quoted supports the belief that we must do works to be saved.
JoeT777,
Excellent post.
I noticed the Tj3 refuses to understand it.
He can not grasp that it takes faith and works.
Neither one by itself will save.
So Scripture says in many ways.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
What I do grasp is what scripture says.
Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
What I do not understand is why anyone would reject the clear and specific word of God to follow the opinions of men.
Tj3,
It is obvious to me that you do not understand what JoeT777 said.
That is the point I was making.
I know you claim otherwise, BUT that is was is obvious to me.
You are I agree on most of what the bible says, but on the few issues that we do not, I fear, that we will never agree with each other.
Time MAY change that, but I think not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You need to understand that when people disagree with you, it does not mean that they do not understand (that attitude seems rather arrogant), but rather more often than not, they indeed do understand and that is why they disagree. Especially since you rarely take the time to interact on matters of scripture.
Tj3,
I do interact on Scripture MY way.
Just because you don't like my way doe not mean I will change my way.
You do it yours, I'll do it mine.
Note that I have not complained about your way.
I hope that is OK with you.
If not, that's OK with me also.
Fred
By refusing to discuss it and simply telling us your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
It weren't no bloody dream it's like a Demon which watched over me. Yeh that's it it tells me all the bad things that's going to happen to me and shakes my bed and holds me down like I'm Paralyzed. GOD forgive me I'm Possessed!
You are not possessed, you are under attack!
adam7gur, what you mean
I will put my thoughts in order and I will come back to this.
The last dream was as if I was inside someone and a house was on fire the person ran into the building could here child crying inside I have dreamed these dreams before but not so clearly!
These dreams don't happen all the time but I remember each one clearly.
Do you think I'm going mad or is this some sort of sign about the future!
Wakkie.
No you are not going mad or possessed.
I have had similar dreams and remember them clearly.
The come and go. It depends on how stressed out I am at times.
Most such dreams, I think, are linked to stress of one kind or another.
Whem happy times or normal times come they go away.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
WakkieRob
As I wrote you are not possessed , you are under attack. Let me explain!
Matthew 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Those things happened to Jesus .The devil taketh Him and setteth him .It seems that the devil had the authourity to taketh Him and setteth Him otherwise it would not happen , but of course Jesus was not possessed , He was under attack. When we have an expirience with evil spirits it does not mean we are possessed.A possesed man is committing sin , you did not sin by floating in the air , you were simply under attack by evil spirits.
In my opinion what you can do is the next time that something like this will happen , call out for help , call out for Jesus ,He is the only one those spirits are afraid of.No matter what you think about yourself , He will not leave you alone in this if you call for Him.Test Him!He likes being tested by honest hearts.
That spirit telling you bad things that will happen to you is a liar. No one controls your future , not even God. God knows your future but He will not mess with it, he has given you freedom to do whatever you want with your life.That evil spirit is telling you things that if you believe them will happen to you.Don't fall for that! You control your life and God is always there for you like a Father to His child.Do you remember the agony that you had in your dream with the burning house and the crying child?Well God is trying to show you how He feels for you.He is in agony because you are that child in that burning house and He cannot save you unless you call out for Him. DO IT NOW!
Hope I helped!
adam7gur,
I liked you answer to WakkieRob.
If he is being attacked, as he well may be, Jesus is his answer to that.
One of may favorite prayers is one I say when I am being tempted.
It is, "Lord please take this temptation from me".
I am pleased to say that it always works.
Apparently Jesus likes to help when a person is attacked by temptation for He answers in the positive.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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