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Originally Posted by gromitt82
[QUOTE

Are we like them, irrespective of how we wish to call them? The answer, of course, is that we are certainly NOT

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Not - in what way?

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[/B]Unfortunately, there is plenty of room to improve on our side and though we are well aware as to how to do it, we seem to be unable to follow their example!

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You clearly must be talking about Christendom, not true Christians who although imperfect, make every effort to follow closely in Jesus footsteps.
What's important is remembering that Mary was faithful to God and raised her son according to God's ways providing the basic spiritual knowledge needed for him to grow into what he was sent here for, providing us with an excellent example for parents to follow today.

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

I think you have hit the only point that really matters in this post that has been dragging for so long.

Are we like them, irrespective of how we wish to call them? The answer, of course, is that we are certainly NOT. Unfortunately, there is plenty of room to improve on our side and though we are well aware as to how to do it, we seem to be unable to follow their exemple!!

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Couldn't aggree more with you on that!

[QUOTE=Moparbyfar;1397301]

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Originally Posted by gromitt82


Not - in what way?

[B

You are, of course, entitled to think that we may somehow resemble Jesus’ apostles, especially St. John or St. Paul. In my humble opinion, which I think I’m also entitled to, our only resemblance is that they were human beings as I believe we are. But, when it comes to their behavior I think we are a few light-years away from them. Their faith was so strong they didn’t refuse choosing to die for it. Are you sure many of us would do the same?[/COLOR[/B]]

You clearly must be talking about Christendom, not true Christians who although imperfect, make every effort to follow closely in Jesus footsteps.
What's important is remembering that Mary was faithful to God and raised her son according to God's ways providing the basic spiritual knowledge needed for him to grow into what he was sent here for, providing us with an excellent example for parents to follow today.

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I am referring to those of us who claim to be true Christians but are far from it.
True Christians who, although imperfect, make every effort to follow Jesus’ footsteps are, of course, worthy of our deepest respect and envy. Unfortunately, I consider them to be a select minority we should ALL imitate. I, for one, regret to say I don’t belong into these elite, though I keep trying my very best to, at least, be allowed into the Kingdom, via Purgatory...

At any rate, one of the characteristics of TRUE Christians normally is they consider themselves as quite imperfect and in their modesty they seldom boast of their accomplishments and way of life.

[QUOTE=gromitt82;1397537]

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Their faith was so strong they didn't refuse choosing to die for it. Are you sure many of us would do the same?

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Unfortunately no and I see your point. I am always encouraged when hearing of the many who are busy risking their lives sometimes to the point of death for their faithfulness and for declaring the good news. In our country there is not a lot of oppression but I think of places like Korea, Russia, China, the middle East to name a few where many are constantly faced with persecution. Even so they remember the scripture in Heb 13:6 "So that we may be of good courage and say: "YHWH is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"
And hey you shouldn't put yourself down, we're all far from perfect but that needn't stop us from trying our hardest to reach God's standards and sticking to them. If they weren't attainable then the bible would be pointless. 2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." 1 Cor 10:12,13 "Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.  No temptation has taken YOU except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it."
So don't give up on yourself, just learn to rely more on our grand creator as Jesus mother certainly did. :)

[QUOTE=Moparbyfar;1398307]

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

Unfortunately no and I see your point. I am always encouraged when hearing of the many who are busy risking their lives sometimes to the point of death for their faithfulness and for declaring the good news. In our country there is not a lot of oppression but I think of places like Korea, Russia, China, the middle East to name a few where many are constantly faced with persecution. Even so they remember the scripture in Heb 13:6 "So that we may be of good courage and say: "YHWH is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"
And hey you shouldn't put yourself down, we're all far from perfect but that needn't stop us from trying our hardest to reach God's standards and sticking to them. If they weren't attainable then the bible would be pointless. 2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." 1 Cor 10:12,13 "Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.  No temptation has taken YOU except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it."
So don't give up on yourself, just learn to rely more on our grand creator as Jesus mother certainly did. :)

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Certainly. As the English say I keep my uppur lip stiff and keep on trying!
I sing all the time:

Oh when the saints go marching in
When the saints go marching in
Oh lord I want to be in that number
When the saints go marching in

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Originally Posted by classyT

Snd,

I don't understand. He practiced the Jewish faith and HE was a Jew. (I remember once you said moses wasn't a Jew.) Are you suggesting that Jesus is not a JEW?

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Key Words:
Israelite • Jesus' identity
Jew • Judaean • Judaism • Paul's identity

Jesus and his earliest followers, evidence demonstrates, were called `Israelites', `Galileans' or `Nazoreans' by their fellow Israelites. `Israel', `Israelites' were the preferred terms of self-designation among members of the house of Israel when addressing other members.

—Not an outsider coinage, is best rendered `Judaean', not `Jew', to reflect the explicit or implied connection with Judaea. It was employed by Israelites when addressing outsiders as an accommodation to outsider usage.

The concepts `Jew', `Jewish' and `Christian' as understood today are shaped more by fourth century rather than first-century CE realities and hence should be avoided as anachronistic designations for first-century persons or groups. Use of `Christian' is best restricted to its three NT appearances. The use of appropriate nomenclature is crucial for minimizing historical and social inaccuracies and misunderstandings.

Note that Jesus, himself recognized a true Israelite
John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Thus the true Israelite recognized Christ as King of Israel and not King of The Jews
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Today almost everyone identifies the name Israel with the Jews. Most people assume the Jewish people are the sole remaining descendants of the ancient nation of Israel. This assumption, however, is incorrect. Technically the Jews are descendants of two of the Israelite tribes: Judah and Benjamin

Unknown to most, 10 other tribes in ancient Israel were never called Jews. These northern tribes were historically distinct and politically separate from the Jews, their brothers to the south who formed the kingdom of Judah, from which the term Jew was derived.

The northern coalition of tribes, the kingdom or house of Israel, had already become an independent nation, separate from the house of Judah, by the time the word Jew first appears in the biblical narrative. In fact, the first time the term appears in the King James Version of the Bible, Israel was at war with the Jews
(2Kings 16:5-6).

Note that Jeremiah 36:30 was spoken against Judah, never to sit upon the throne of David. If this scripture being true, then if Christ was a Judaean, he could never sit on the throne.
Jeremiah 36:30 Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.

Note Luke 1:32 Spoken for Israel, throne of David 10 tribes of the north, Christ Jesus

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Christ is the King of Israel, the King of Kings on earth. And Christ is the begotten son of God, King of Heaven and Earth. Thats my opinion and resulting facts from in depth study. You're welcome to yours..

Moses was a Levite, as was his brother Aaron. Mary was of the daughters of Aaron, who married within the house of David to Joseph. Mary's blood line was of the priesthood known as Levites, concluding Christ as Lord of Lords.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Key Words:
—Not an outsider coinage, is best rendered `Judaean', not `Jew', to reflect the explicit or implied connection with Judaea. It was employed by Israelites when addressing outsiders as an accommodation to outsider usage.

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Whether the term Jews came from the word Judean is debated (though most scholars appear to agree that the root is from Yehudi or Judah), but the word does mean those of Hebrew descent regardless of which tribe they descended from. Here is an answer to that question from an Israeli.

Origin and Application of the word "Jew"

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Note that Jesus, himself recognized a true Israelite[/B]
John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

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John 1:45-47
46 And Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!"
NKJV

The key here, in context was that there was no deceit in him, not whether he was a genetically from a southern or northern tribe.

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Thus the true Israelite recognized Christ as King of Israel and not King of The Jews[/B]
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

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One cannot differentiate in such a way. Israel refers to the nation descended from Israel (Jacob), regardless of whether they came from the northern or southern tribes.

Jesus was a Jew in any case as we see in scripture, for example:

John 4:7-10
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink." 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
NKJV

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Note that Jeremiah 36:30 was spoken against Judah, never to sit upon the throne of David. If this scripture being true, then if Christ was a Judaean, he could never sit on the throne.[/B]

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The verse is NOT saying that no Jew can ever sit upon the throne. It says:

John 1:45-47
46 And Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!"
NKJV

Jer 36:29-31
29 And you shall say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, 'Thus says the LORD: "You have burned this scroll, saying, 'Why have you written in it that the king of Babylon will certainly come and destroy this land, and cause man and beast to cease from here?' " 30'Therefore thus says the LORD concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah: "He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David, and his dead body shall be cast out to the heat of the day and the frost of the night. 31 I will punish him, his family, and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring on them, on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and on the men of Judah all the doom that I have pronounced against them; but they did not heed." ' "
NKJV

The context is specific and is not eternally rejecting the Jews.

A Comment About Plagiarism
---------------------------------

Sndbay, I know where you are copying this stuff from and the right thing to do is to give acknowledgment and to put it forward as a quote in support of your position, or as a link as I did near the top of my post, rather than posting it and leaving the suggestion that it is your own work. Here are the sources:

The first half of your post came from here: http://jhj.sagepub.com/cgi/content/a...t/5/2/119?etoc

The second half came from here: http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/booklets/usbbp/ch3jews.html

Note: I would urge caution especially regarding the second source - It is a splinter groups from Armstrongism ( http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w01.html )

You can legally quote small portions of a text under what is known as the "fair use" clause in the copyright law, but even then proper acknowledgment of the source is required, and there are conditions on how you use the material and the amount that you use. Here is more information on the fair use provision:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

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Originally Posted by Tj3

sndbay, I know where you are copying this stuff from and the right thing to do is to give acknowledgment and to put it forward as a quote in support of your position, or as a link as I did near the top of my post, rather than posting it and leaving the suggestion that it is your own work.

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QUOTE Sndbay #46

Thats my opinion and resulting facts from in depth study. You're welcome to yours..

Further study refer: ONE MAN'S DESTINY
by C.R. ******

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Originally Posted by sndbay

QUOTE Sndbay #46

Thats my opinion and resulting facts from in depth study. You're welcome to yours..

Further study refer: ONE MAN'S DESTINY
by C.R. ******

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Indepth study? You copied it!

I can understand someone making a mistake, but then failing to acknowledge it after the sources have been posted is something that I did not anticipate.

You are certainly welcome to hold whatever opinion you wish but plagiarism is neither ethical or legal (for copyrighted material - and both sources that you used ARE copyrighted) unless you have explicit permission or use it under the fair use provisions.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Indepth study? You copied it!

I can understand someone making a mistake, but then failing to acknowledge it after the sources have been posted is something that I did not anticipate.

You are certainly welcome to hold whatever opinion you wish but plagarism is neither ethical or legal (for copyrighted material - and both sources that you used ARE copyrighted) unless you have explicit permission or use it under the fair use provisions.

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I failed to refer the link, and your forgiveness to that failed refer is questionable. (not surprising) I did clearly state it was from depth in study.. should one fall short in saying something more properly? As shown from previous times you would find anything I say confusing. My resulting opinion comes from many different and a large number of material sources.

Who is a Jew?
Jew - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These verses sharply distinguish between the 2 houses.Plus it is said the house of David execute judgment and righteousness in the land. That David would not permit a man to sit on the throne to the house of Isreal. This says God and God alone.. The Levites are include with all that is said concerning the House of Isreal.
Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
Jeremiah 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jeremiah 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Malachi 2:4-6 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him [for] the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

The records of their past shows that when they were loyal to God as their King, He judged them with loving kindness and fought all their battles to a victorious finish. However did God find conspiracy within the House of Judah?
Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Luke 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Just as God had said: Jeremiah 11:9 And the LORD said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Mark 14:55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.
Matthew 26:65 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.

Jesus prepared his disciples for the tragic events which would lead to the final dissolution of the Jewish nation.
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21... And noted in Luke 19:41-44 the tender brooding love which would of the Master as he on the approaching doom which would soon engulf Judea in the desolation and dispair.

The end: Isaiah 5:30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if [one] look unto the land, behold darkness [and] sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

One can read that Christ disclaimed Judaism.. Judaism was not founded upon Moses and the prophets, he said but upon the false theories of presumptuous men.
__________________________________________________ ___

Jeremiah 59:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Luke 19:47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

I failed to refer the link, and your forgiveness to that failed refer is questionable. (not surprising) I did clearly state it was from depth in study.. should one fall short in saying something more properly? As shown from previous times you would find anything I say confusing. My resulting opinion comes from many different and a large number of material sources.

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I made no judgment on my first comment, but rather was trying to make you aware of the implications. I thought that you would respond by acknowledging the error and move on. That is why I provided links to help you be aware of the rules and laws regarding this area, to be helpful - but when you failed to even acknowledge it on your second message, it sent a clear message.

You said that you got this from wikipedia. The interesting thing is that the links that I gave come back with word for word what you said in your post. While the wikipedia link that you gave does not.

I stand by my earlier comments regarding plagiarism.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

These verses sharply distinguish between the 2 houses.

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Agreed. They were two separate nations for some time in Israel's history, but that does not take away from the fact that Jesus is a Jew or the usage of the word Jew. It also does not in any way suggest that the Jews are rejected either as a people or from the throne of Israel.

Those are the points that I was addressing.

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One can read that Christ disclaimed Judaism.. Judaism was not founded upon Moses and the prophets, he said but upon the false theories of presumptuous men.

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Where did Jesus reject Judaism?

Please be aware that there are different forms of Judaism. True Judaism is what Jesus came to fulfill. Read the pages of the NT and you will see that Jesus was an observant Jew.

The Pharisees was rejected by Jesus, but keep in mind that this was not the system of the priesthood set up by God in the first place. Today we have Rabbinical Judaism which differs again.

Jeremiah 24:4-7 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for [their] good. For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull [them] down; and I will plant them, and not pluck [them] up. And I will give them an heart to know me, that I [am] the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
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Jeremaih 24:8-10 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for [their] hurt, [to be] a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them. And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.
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Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
____________________________

Revelation 3: 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Jeremiah 24:4-7
Jeremaih 24:8-10
Matthew 24:32
Revelation 3: 9

[snip for brevity...]

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Your point in posting these verses is?

Snd,

This is off thread but may I ask what type of church you attend? Just being nosey.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Snd,

This is off thread but may i ask what type of church you attend? just being nosey.

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Shepherd’s Chapel
Gravette AR 72736 USA
Welcome to Shepherd's Chapel

Statement of Faith
Shepherd's Chapel - Statement of Faith - Page 1


Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

`child of God

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Shepherd’s Chapel
Gravette AR 72736 USA
Welcome to Shepherd's Chapel

Statement of Faith
Shepherd's Chapel - Statement of Faith - Page 1


Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

`child of God

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Thanks.. I will check it out.

Hello Gal:

I can only answer your question from my perspective. It probably brings up more questions for you, though.

Seems to me, that since Jesus was a Jew, his mother was one too. Cause if she wasn't, he wouldn't have been.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Shepherd's Chapel
Gravette AR 72736 USA

Statement of Faith
Shepherd's Chapel - Statement of Faith - Page 1

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Based upon what I read in the statement of faith, it appears that this church teaches the error that the church replaced Israel (Replacement Theology).

Ex,

Yep she was a jew and so was he but I think that Gal is talking about AFTER the resurrection. Some of those good little jewish men and women became CHRISTIANS. They were still Jews by birth but they no longer practice Judism.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Based upon what I read in the statement of faith, it appears that this church teaches the error that the the church replaced Israel (Replacement Theology).

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Yes... I saw that too. This explains a LOT! I will never understand why people think that Israel has been replaced. The Lord never slumbers nor sleeps watching over her. He is surely not finished with Israel. The scripture is crystal clear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Based upon what I read in the statement of faith, it appears that this church teaches the error that the the church replaced Israel (Replacement Theology).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by classyT

Yes...I saw that too. This explains a LOT! I will never understand why people think that Israel has been replaced. The Lord never slumbers nor sleeps watching over her. He is surely not finished with Israel. The scripture is crystal clear.

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One should look to the contain of what is written, and not judge falsely.

Shepherd's Chapel - Statement of Faith - Page 1
Statement of Faith

We believe that God chose out a special people unto Himself to be His servants and those servants were to be the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob called "Israel" (Deuteronomy 7:6; Psalm 105:6; Isaiah 44:1-2).

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Originally Posted by sndbay

One should look to the contain of what is written, and not judge falsely.

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Yep. I read the whole thing and many other parts of the website.

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We believe that God chose out a special people unto Himself to be His servants and those servants were to be the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob called "Israel" (Deuteronomy 7:6; Psalm 105:6; Isaiah 44:1-2).

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And then the statement of faith goes ont o say:

"We believe that after Christ's death and resurrection Israel was to be called by a new name (Isaiah 62:2). Israel was not to be remembered by her old name (Hosea 2:17); and, the new name was to be the Lord's Name (II Chronicles 7:14) which would be CHRISTIAN (Christ man) (Acts 11:26; I Peter 4:16)."

There is much more, and a large part of the statement of faith focuses on what is actually pretty close to defining replacement theology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Yep. I read the whole thing and many other parts of the website.



And then the statement of faith goes ont o say:

"We believe that after Christ's death and resurrection Israel was to be called by a new name (Isaiah 62:2). Israel was not to be remembered by her old name (Hosea 2:17); and, the new name was to be the Lord's Name (II Chronicles 7:14) which would be CHRISTIAN (Christ man) (Acts 11:26; I Peter 4:16)."

There is much more, and a large part of the statement of faith focuses on what is actually pretty close to defining replacement theology.

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All that is stated is written in scripture. Are you finding fault with what is written in scripture? Or just trying to tag man's theology against what is written? Pastor Murray and the fellowship with Shepherd's Chapel is the aliment of The Word in spiritual truth.

The path you have taken in this discussion is clearly off thread. And Why you, or classyT would choose to destroy the heart and soul of others who show love for Christ is discerned as wrong.

Who is a Jew? Romans 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

All that is stated is written in scripture. Are you finding fault with what is written in scripture? Or just trying to tag man's theology against what is written? Pastor Murray and the fellowship with Shepherd's Chapel is the aliment of The Word in spiritual truth.

The path you have taken in this discussion is clearly off thread. And Why you, or classyT would choose to destroy the heart and soul of others who show love for Christ is discerned as wrong.

Who is a Jew? Romans 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

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Good Grief,

I'm not trying to destroy your heart or soul. It is MY opinion. Snd, you really need to not take this personally. Enjoy your church. I don't care. I think it is wrong. You think I am wrong. You certainly don't destroy my heart and soul because you THINK I follow "man theology". Get a grip. I'm out to destroy you... believe as you wish. I am never going to change your mind and you won't change mine. But please please stop thinking I am a internet bully. I just don't agree with you. That's all.

Thread closed