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De Maria,
When you said of Mary, "She did not create God. God is uncreated and eternal. But she did conceive God in her womb. Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb."
You summed it up well and correctly.
According to the bible, that is exactly what took place.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Try to focus; this verse says that the child born (birthed) and was named by the angel. How does this verse contradict what Catholics believe?Quote:
Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV
Salve, Regina!
JoeT
This whole exchange is pointless. Catholics do not regard scripture as the FINAL authority, while the rest of Christendom does. One side or the other has to back off before there can be any meeting of the minds. That is highly inlikely.
That is right. And just as true is the fact that Jesus was not fully man before being conceived in the flesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Did she? Then what you are saying is in effect that Jesus was not eternally pre-existent.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I note that you could not answer the question - did Mary conceive God - yes or no?
BTW, I believe what the Bible says, not your unvalidated private interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Heh hah - you brought up the fact that the word conceived was associated in the Bible with Jesus, and I quoted the verse. But now I note that you avoid the word conceived, and change it to "birthed".
I will take that to mean that you do not want to answer the question as to whether Mary conceived God.
I understand why you don't - really, I do!
There will never be a meeting of the minds so long as one side insists that the other side must first accept the private interpretation of the men who lead their denomination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I did ansewer your question (some time ago) as follows: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. " You still haven't shown how "conceived" in this verse contradicts Catholic belief. Try to do it without chopping Christ up into pieces.
Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?
Salve, Regina!
JoeT
I'm sure it must seem that way. But, the point is exactly where that “FINAL authority” rests. What we do know is that that authority can't lie in a book, especially in a book that makes no claim to be “the final” or “the ultimate” authority. The RCC holds that all Scripture should be in harmony with the Tradition of the Apostles' teachings and the Magisterium of the Church. We see that among other things, Christ prays for us to have one faith, a holy faith, a catholic faith, as taught by the Apostles. John 17: 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. St. Augustine says it best:Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
But those reasons which I have here given, I have either gathered from the authority of the church, according to the tradition of our forefathers, or from the testimony of the divine Scriptures, or from the nature itself of numbers and of similitudes. FIFTEEN BOOKS OF AURELIUS AUGUSTINUS BISHOP OF HIPPO, ON THE TRINITY
Furthermore, as far as scripture themselves
But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. St. Augustin, AGAINST THE EPISTLE OF MANICHAEUS CALLED FUNDAMENTAL.(1)[CONTRA EPISTOLAM MANICHAEI QUAM VACANT FUNDAMENTI.] A.D. 397. Chp 5
JoeT
You avoided the question entirely. Was God conceived in Mary?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
BTW, I was quite clear about God being fully man and fully God. I am trying to get you to acknowledge His human nature.
Sure, if you can answer it. If so, then do so.Quote:
Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?
Since that "book" as you call it, is the written word of God, I take that word with the authority of God. There is no denomination, or church, or human who carries authority equal to that of God's. There is no authority of any denomination, or church, or human which I would require before I would believe God's word or accept God's authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ was man and God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary.Quote:
You avoided the question entirely. Was God conceived in Mary?
BTW, I was quite clear about God being fully man and fully God. I am trying to get you to acknowledge His human nature.
Given the verse, Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN, we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.
Thus we hold Mary was Ever Virgin and Mother of Mercy
JoeT
If you believed this "book", you would believe every verse. And this "book" tells you that the Church is your authority:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
That we should obey men of the Church:
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
That the Church will even teach the powers in the heavenly places:
Ephesians 3 10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,
So in disregarding the Church, you disregard the Scriptures which tell you not to disregard the Church.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I see that you are still avoiding the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Was God conceived in Mary?
Can we stick with dealing with one erroneous doctrine at a time?Quote:
We must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary's Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary's womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.
That is a different thread, De maria, and we have already discussed that to death. You believe that "The Church" is a denomination started in 325AD, and I go by what scripture says about The Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Well I thought you would never ask.Quote:
Didn't you want to know about the "Queen"?
Quote:
Sure, if you can answer it. If so, then do so.
The illustrious Mother of Christ is held to be Queen of the Universe:
But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren", (Acts 1: 14) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, (Cf. Rom. 8: 10-11) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. 1 Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confirmed to her Son, the Lord of lords (Cf Apoc. 19: 16) and the conqueror of sin and death.( Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8: 15-16 and 26.) ." Lumen Gentium, 59
We hold that;
Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.( Cf. Mk. 4: 26-29) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me". (Lk. 1: 48) Lumen Gentium, 59
And which is why we say:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
JoeT
Words mean things, read what was written.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
God was infused into Christ at the moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ was man and God infused. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary.
Quote:
I see that you are still avoiding the question.
Was God conceived in Mary?
There is no error here.Quote:
we must conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. How does one COMPASS Christ the man without COMPASSING the God that is Christ? At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.
Quote:
Can we stick with dealing with one erroneous doctrine at a time?
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
He he he.
I notice that all you could do was copy and paste someone's private interpretation.
Just like your claim about mother of God, this claim is also not validated by scripture.
Anyway, that was a good interlude - now how about answering my question - did Mary conceive God?
They do and I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Now please answer my question.
Was God conceived in Mary? Yes or No, please, no more copy and paste answers.
Quote:
he he he.
I notice that all you could do was copy and paste someone's private interpretation.
Just like your claim about mother of God, this claim is also not validated by scripture.
Anyway, that was a good interlude - now how about answering my question - did Mary conceive God?
Mockery is your best argument?
JoeT
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
No argument needs to be given for that one because there is no validation - just some private interpretation that you copied and pasted.
Should you find a reference in scripture to the Queen of the Universe, please let me know, and I'd be delighted to discuss further.
Quote:
Well I thought you would never ask.
The illustrious Mother of Christ is held to be Queen of the Universe:
But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren", (Acts 1: 14) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin, (Cf. Rom. 8: 10-11) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confirmed to her Son, the Lord of lords (Cf Apoc. 19: 16) and the conqueror of sin and death.( Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8: 15-16 and 26.) ." Lumen Gentium, 59
We hold that;
Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.( Cf. Mk. 4: 26-29) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me". (Lk. 1: 48) Lumen Gentium, 59
And which is why we say:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
JoeT
Quote:
Joe,
No argument needs to be given for that one because there is no validation - just some private interpretation that you copied and pasted.
Should you find a reference in scripture to the Queen of the Universe, please let me know, and I'd be delighted to discuss further.
Validation was given with Scriptural references.
Not a single one validates Mary or indeed anyone else as "queen of the universe", nor even suggests that any such position exists. It is all someone's private opinion. Even within the copied and pasted paragraph, there are addition claims which are unvalidated upon which this unvalidated conclusion is based.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Read what you copied and pasted.
But again, this seems to be a way of driving the discussion off topic and avoiding the question which you have circled around but avoided:
Was God conceived in Mary?
It's commonsense that mary was a human, and when she birthed another
Human, her nature didn't change. She didn't become divine... there's
No scripture that shows mary as some type of angel or goddess, just
Another human being. I think her and jesus' humanity is what trips up
Peoples' understanding of how jesus could possibly be anything other
Than a normal human being. The question of the trinity also arises,
Because jesus was born without a human father. Mary had a human father and mother. But jesus was different. So what made him different? I believe
That god worked his will through jesus so intimately, that jesus could
Draw on this miraculous power, at will. I believe jesus experienced this
Power from both within and without. My reasoning is because jesus was
Directed by god from within. And the forces without were dealing with
Food and weather, and water. This internal walk was perfected in jesus,
And mary could only be like us, waiting for what we can only hope, like paul says, in the future, when we'll see what god meant for us to be.
So mary was like us, and died like we will. I'm sure mary was a very
Good christian, but that's as far as her godliness went.
You have that right, except we don't need the catholic church, a pastor,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Or any other to tell us how to interpret scripture. And since you stated
It can't lie in a book, then it must come from god himself.
OK, let me try this tack: how would mary's womb have been anyQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Purer than other women's wombs? Lol, it's not what goes into
A man that defiles him, it's what comes out. In other words,
Mary was still the same spiritual person she was even after
She conceived. She didn't all of a sudden 'level up' in her
Walk with god.
That Mary became divine was never said or implied. Nor is Mary an angel or goddess. But she is a Saint.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
I don’t think “God worked through Jesus” because Christ was fully man and fully God. Wavering from His humanity to His Divinity or favoring His divinity or his humanity leads us into conflict with the Triune.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
But, this was the point. God suffered humanity out of his goodness so we might live: He was buried to raise us up. For when our Lord suffered, His humanity suffered, that which He had like man; and He dissolves the sufferings of him who is His like, and by dying He has destroyed death…He is the resurrection and the salvation of all; He is the Guide of the erring, the Shepherd of men who have been set free, the life of the dead, the charioteer of the cherubim, the standard-bearer of the angels, and the King of kings, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen Alexander of Alexandria, Epistles on ArianismQuote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Do you not agree?
No, Mary wasn’t entirely like us. Catholics hold that she was immaculate; thereby supernaturally protected from original sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
How do you get this:
Out of this:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1Cr 6:19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? And ye are not your own;
1Cr 6:20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.
?
No, it actually meshes well with the 'triune'. See, the power that jesusQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Used upon the earth, was not used by other people, such as he used it.
He kept referring to the father, and he used the power of god (if you
Believe his miracles), so god was definitely living in him, and working
His power through jesus. You have to remember, it was flesh god was
Doing his will through. The holy spirit of god was the power of god
Working through the flesh. So you can see that you cannot take away
Jesus' flesh, spirit(he was alive), and god's spirit(working miracles).
This 'triune' interpretation works for me.
Yes, but I don't see your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
She couldn't be protected from sin. Jesus had not died yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Your denomination may hold to that, and you have the perfect right to believe as you wish - but it is not found in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Nor have you said if you believe that God was conceived in Mary.
Tj3,
Yes, the bible says that THE CHURCH is your authority, but I know from your many posts that you do not believe much of what the bibles says, such as that Mary is the mother of God the Son and that the consecrated bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Jesus Christs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Men of good conscience do, and sometimes often, disagree on the meaning of Scripture. Therefore, if men of faith, good morals, and ethics can disagree while reading essentially from the same Scripture. Thus, receiving their understanding direct from the book through God himself (presumably the Holy Spirit) then why do you and I disagree? Why isn't the Spirit of God teaching each of us the same thing? Why then do we have 30,000 different Christian Churches when Christ prayed “And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me: that they may be one, as we also are… That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one. 23 I in them, and thou in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.” (John 17)Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Are we all theologians, specialists in Greek, Latin and other dead languages? If not, then how are we to discern which is the Truth and which is not? Therefore, rightly, The teaching authority of the Church, promised to you and me by Christ, fills this role as commissioned by Christ.
JoeT
I believe the Bible when it says that those who believed that Jesus spoke of eating literal flesh were those who betrayed Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Not, God was living in Him. God was Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
God doesn't need the power of god to do His work. I don't know if you're catching on or not. But, Christ was all man, all God.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
JoeT
The important question is - what is the church? Denominations formed starting 325AD (such as yours), or the word of God (the Bible) and the body of Christ (the body of all believers regardless of what denomination they belong to).Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I accept the latter because no denominations are mentioned in scripture and jesus did not speak of delegating anything to any denomination.
Nor does scripture say that God was conceived in Mary.
JoeT777,
Yes, that IS the reason Jesus did establish an earthly authority to exist after he ascended to the Father in heaven.
It, The Church, has been diligently doing it's appointed Job "feed my sheep" for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
I’m going to get clobbered for getting so far off this thread when De Maria logs back on. So, I’m going to pass on this, except to say you know I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Oh, but it does. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Luke 1: 31-33)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Yes Fred exacatly! Feed my lambs... feed my lambs... feed my sheep.
Why do you suppose it goes: feed lambs, feed lambs, feed sheep? What's the significance?
JoeT
My Jesus is still here. As God, He is omnipresent. Sorry to hear about yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
He sits at the right hand of the Father. He left so that the Holy Spirit could come. Do you recall which verse that was?
Back to my question - if I were to use your faulty logic syllogism, I would come up with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Jesus is God.
Jesus was conceived in Mary.
Therefore God was conceived in Mary.
Do you believe that God was conceived?
Repeating my first response: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. "Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This is what I believe - if you'll notice it starts with "I believe."
JoeT
Still avoiding the question which is - was God conceived.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I find it humorous how you are avoiding this question. But I know why. You dare not answer because it would open up all sorts of problems which you'd rather not deal with.
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