De Maria,
To attempt to find scriptural support for purgatory you have appealed to Luke 16:24, 1 Peter 3:19, and 1 Corinthians 3:15. I checked out each verse carefully. Here is what I found:

Regarding the use of Luke 16:24, it seems that the fathers are in agreement that the rich man went to hell, not purgatory. Secondly, purgatory is supposedly a temporary state, yet Luke 16:26 indicates that the situation that the rich man finds himself in is permanent. In addition to that, as I understand it, the church teaches that only that those who die in God's grace and friendship go to Purgatory. From the text it does not appear that such was the case for the rich man. Lastly, the pope himself declared that rich man went to hell.

I don't believe that 1 Peter 3:19 is speaking about purgatory. Those that Christ preached to in the prison mentioned in that text were not human. The word translated “spirit” in that text refers to non human spirit beings unless modified in some way. (See also Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14.) As far as I've been able to determine, the church teaches that humans end up in purgatory, not non human spirit beings. If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose?

The use of 1 Corinthians 3:15 is popular among Catholics to support the notion of purgatory, but read carefully and in context, I don't believe that it does so. For instance, if Paul is speaking about purgatory in that text, what is the reward mentioned in v.14 of the 3rd chapter of 1 Corinthians?

Rob

Good points

The rich man went to Hell not purgatory

If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Because then Jesus died for no reason. The Bible says that God casts our sins away as far as the East is to the West. Do you really believe that we walk around for years carrying our sins until Purgatory? Jesus said cast our burdens on him not walk around with them. We do not pay for our sins

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Yes we do.

Lets look at how David for a second.

2 Kings 12 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

Why did Nathan say this to David? Had David repented of his sin? Had David been forgiven by God? Yet David paid for his sin by the death of his son:

13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.

Sincerely,

De Maria

13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.

The Lord HATH taken away thy sin... therefore it means David did not have to wait for some purgatory

Hey Nohelp4u, good to know that there are other true believers out there. Keep being led by the desires of the Spirit, not the flesh, that is, the feelings and emotions that God wants us to enjoy, namely, the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace etc. Not by the fruit or desires of the flesh, i.e.. Self indulgence, hate, greed, sexual lust, coveting etc.
The Holy Spirit is teaching me about this over the last couple of weeks. I never thought of it that way before, recognize the feeling and determine if it is from God or the enemy.
Today, I was facing a certain situation, and I felt fear about it. God made me aware of the emotion and I realized that this is not a God emotion. I commanded the fear to go immediately and it did. I chose to feel one of God's emotions, to be strong and of good courage and of course, joy, and not only did I get victory over the feeling, but I was blessed in the situation also. God is so good!
God put it in my heart a few weeks ago to discover His nature, the nature of Christ being formed in us. I Nehemiah 9:17, the last half of the verse, it says, " You are a God of forgiveness, gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness."
That's the nature and the feelings that I want, how about you?

Hebrews 1:3 (New American Standard Bible)

3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(Nohelp4u- I added this reply for the content, I know you understand. Peace.)

God has been showing me that being free in your spirit is not about a bunch of man made do and don'ts but of course you have to back everything up with what God has to say.
Too many people are caught up in their religious formulas and set God and the leading of the Holy Spirit aside to the point they are blind to what 'set your spirit free' really means.

[QUOTE=De Maria]
It appears that rhadsen has done a good job at addressing some of your mis-understandings, so I do not need to repe4at that which he has already addressed.

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I never said 1 John 1:9 is in error.

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Good because if it is not in error, then you must accept that jesus paid the price for ALL inquity and takes away ALL inquity from all who are saved. That being the case, we cannot pay the price for any sin if we are saved, since it has already been paid.

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But you've ignored all my question concerning the verses where St. Peter and St. Paul both explain that we pay not only for our own sins but for each others.

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You have not shown me any verses that say that they paid the price for their sins or others.. Only that they suffered for the sake of the gospel. That is much different.

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Did anyone say that we cleanse ourselves from our sin in Purgatory? Who?

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Trying to backtrack? So if you are now saying that we do not pay the rpcie for sin in purgatory, then what is your claim for the purpose of purgatory?

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And it is Scripture which says that one who suffered in the flesh has ceased with sin and that St. Paul rejoices in his suffering for us. So please address those questions which I asked. How can we cease with sin by suffering in the flesh? And how can St. Paul rejoice in his suffering for us? Not only that but filling in his flesh that which is WANTING in the suffering of Christ?

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Read the context - He is referring clearly to suffering for the sake of promoting the truth of scripture. If you can find any verse which says that he is paying the rpice for his or anyone else's sin, please post that verse.

I already responded to this message but I missed this comment:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

.... Do you really believe that we walk around for years carrying our sins until Purgatory? ....

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No, if you have made satisfaction for your sins.

Yes if you haven't.

Along with Purgatory is the accompanying doctrine of the Purgative Way.

In other words, whatever we sin we haven't repented and satisfied in this life, will be cleansed in the next in Purgatory.

Simple example:

Your son has broken the neighbors window. He repents and says he is sorry. Is the neighbor satisfied? Probably not.

But your son doesn't have the money to pay for the window to be fixed. What to do? You, the parent pay for the window and your son pays you back out of his allowance.

Even if you don't demand your son pay you back for the window, the neighbor is paid and the debt satisfied.

This example also explains indulgences. You have paid and made satisfaction for the your son's sin.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus paid for our sins and God knows or heart and it is up to God to forgive us.
Judgment day is about are works being tested not our salvation.

I'm glad TJ mentioned you in his(?) next post. I missed your message the first time around. Good question.

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Originally Posted by rhadsen

De Maria,
To attempt to find scriptural support for purgatory you have appealed to Luke 16:24, 1 Peter 3:19, and 1 Corinthians 3:15. I checked out each verse carefully. Here is what I found:

Regarding the use of Luke 16:24, it seems that the fathers are in agreement that the rich man went to hell, not purgatory.

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I don't think you've read all the Fathers. I'm pretty sure some of them must think it was Purgatory, because a man a bit more Catholic than I, Pope Benedict XVI says it is Purgatory in Spe Salve:

45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory.
"Spe Salvi" - Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI on Christian Hope

Considering that this man was also the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith before he was Pope. I think he knows a bit more about Catholic Doctrine than either you or I.

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Secondly, purgatory is supposedly a temporary state, yet Luke 16:26 indicates that the situation that the rich man finds himself in is permanent.

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Where?

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In addition to that, as I understand it, the church teaches that only that those who die in God’s grace and friendship go to Purgatory. From the text it does not appear that such was the case for the rich man.

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On the contrary, in the text, Dives calls St. Abraham, "Father" and Father Abraham calls him "Son" in return. Therefore this person died in an imperfect state of grace.

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Lastly, the pope himself declared that rich man went to hell.

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See Spe Salve above.

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I don’t believe that 1 Peter 3:19 is speaking about purgatory. Those that Christ preached to in the prison mentioned in that text were not human.

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You should have taken the time to read one more verse:

19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

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The word translated “spirit” in that text refers to non human spirit beings unless modified in some way.

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The fact is that the word "spirit" is frequently interchanged with the word "soul" in the Bible.

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(See also Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14.)

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Better idea. Why don't you quote them and explain your interpretation. Then I can see more easily what you are thinking. Otherwise you force me to make assumptions and that iis not helpful to a good discussion.

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As far as I’ve been able to determine, the church teaches that humans end up in purgatory, not non human spirit beings. If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose?

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To preach to His children who will soon be joining Him in Heaven.

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The use of 1 Corinthians 3:15 is popular among Catholics to support the notion of purgatory, but read carefully and in context, I don’t believe that it does so. For instance, if Paul is speaking about purgatory in that text, what is the reward mentioned in v.14 of the 3rd chapter of 1 Corinthians?

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The reward is always heaven.

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Rob

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Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It appears that rhadsen has done a good job at addressing some of your mis-understandings,

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He asked some good hard questions. Thanks for pointing it out.

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so I do not need to repe4at that which he has already addressed.

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I appreciate that. I don't mind repeating myself. But it does get tedious.

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Good because if it is not in error, then you must accept that jesus paid the price for ALL inquity and takes away ALL inquity from all who are saved. That being the case, we cannot pay the price for any sin if we are saved, since it has already been paid.

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The only way you can make that understanding out of this verse is to take it out of Scripture all together.

However, we are taught that the entire Scriptures were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit says in one verse that we must make satisfaction for our sins. We can't disregard that verse.

Again, if we see that David had to pay for the temporal effects of his sin by the death of his child even though God had already forgiven him. Then we must make satisfaction for effects of our sins even though God has already forgiven us. God doesn't change.

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You have not shown me any verses that say that they paid the price for their sins or others.. Only that they suffered for the sake of the gospel. That is much different.

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What you should do is answer the questions I asked you. They hold the key to your understanding this topic.

If St. Paul isn't talking about suffering for our sin, then why is he suffering and making up for the suffering which he says is WANTING in the suffering of Christ. Didn't Christ suffer and die for our sins? So, please quit ignoring the questions any longer.

Why do we cease from sin when we suffer in the flesh? Answer the questions.

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Trying to backtrack? So if you are now saying that we do not pay the rpcie for sin in purgatory, then what is your claim for the purpose of purgatory?

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Backtrack? Your ignorance of Catholic doctrine is what is preventing your understanding of what I am saying.

Answer the question. Who said that "we" cleansed "ourselves" in Purgatory? Who?

Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ:
Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

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Read the context - He is referring clearly to suffering for the sake of promoting the truth of scripture. If you can find any verse which says that he is paying the rpice for his or anyone else's sin, please post that verse.

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Neither of them is talking abouit suffering for promoting the Gospel. Read the context yourself. [/quote]

St. Peter says "suffer in flesh, cease with sin." Therefore suffeirng in the flesh eliminates sin.

And St. Paul is says he is adding to the suffering "WANTING" in the suffering of Christ. Did Christ suffer for our sins or not? Then St. Paul says he is suffering for our sins also.

But lets go back to the Master:
Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Christ took up the Cross for our sins. Whose sins do we take up with our cross?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Jesus paid for our sins and God knows or heart and it is up to God to forgive us.

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So we play no part? Then why does Scripture say:

Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

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Judgment day is about are works being tested not our salvation.

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You have explained purgatory. All in Purgatory have built on the foundation of Christ:

1 Corinthians 3 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus.

Sincerely,

De Maria

What Bible verse says we must make satisfaction other than to repent?

If St. Paul isn't talking about suffering for our sin, then why is he suffering and making up for the suffering which he says is WANTING in the suffering of Christ.
Yes we can suffer for our sins HERE on earth but does that say we suffer for our sins after death in some purgatory? I really do not see it!

Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ:
Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Just as you claim that hath seems to mean afterlife when the context is the here and now you seem to be doing the same thing with this verse.
They are both already here for the believer not something that happens in purgatory.


Christ took up the Cross for our sins. Whose sins do we take up with our cross?
Agreed so why do you insist it is something that purgatory has to take care of??

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Originally Posted by De Maria

So we play no part? Then why does Scripture say:

Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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That is like separating the gift from the giver.
What is your point
Sounds totally taken out of context

Jesus gave us the opportunity to come after him and follow him
It is up to us to follow so how does that prove purgatory?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

That is like separating the gift from the giver.
What is your point
sounds totally taken out of context

Jesus gave us the opportunity to come after him and follow him
it is up to us to follow so how does that prove purgatory?

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At this point we have moved from Purgatory to paying the satisfaction for our sins. Jesus didn't just say follow Him. He said, "TAKE UP YOUR CROSS and follow me."

Scripture Itself tells you what that means:

Galatians 5 24 And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences.

1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.


What example did Jesus give that we should follow? He suffered and died for our sins. Therefore, take up your cross and suffer for your sins and for your fellow man:

John 15 13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Oh so you switched up the conversation from purgatory. I thought you were trying to use that verse to back up purgatory

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Oh so you switched up the conversation from purgatory.

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Not completely.

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I thought you were trying to use that verse to back up purgatory

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Yes, it does back up Purgatory.

In Purgatory, we pay for the effects of our sins which we haven't paid for in this life.

Lets get back to the example of David's sin. God forgave him and erased his sin. But the effects of his sin remained. Specifically, because David gave occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme (2 Kings 12 26), David's son had to die.

If David's son had not died in payment for David's sin, and if David had not made reparation in another manner before his death. David himself would have paid for this sin in Purgatory.

So first we have to establish that there is a doctrine of suffering for expiation of sin in this life. Then we can prove that for those who love God but die in an imperfect state of grace, there is also expiation of sin in the next.

You follow?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

what Bible verse says we must make satisfaction other than to repent?

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Let us see if you are truly not a believer of Sola Scriptura. I have already provided the verse of David and the death of his first son by Bathsheba. That is Scripture. But we also have everyday life to teach us that one must make satisfaction for one's sins. Is man more just than God? Let us recall then the story of the child who breaks the window. Would you consider the child sincere if he merely asked to be forgiven but did not offer to pay for the damage he had done?

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Yes we can suffer for our sins HERE on earth but does that say we suffer for our sins after death in some purgatory? I really do not see it!

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That's OK. But you are miles ahead of any other nonCatholic with which I've spoken on this topic.

So tell me, what is keeping us from suffering for our sins after death? Is God not merciful enough to cleanse us Himself before we enter heaven. After all, nothing impure will enter therein (Rev 21:27) and how many people die in a state of perfect purity?

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Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ:
Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Just as you claim that hath seems to mean afterlife when the context is the here and now you seem to be doing the same thing with this verse. They are both already here for the believer not something that happens in purgatory.

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There's more than one verse that speaks of washing in the blood of Christ and not all of them are fixed in the here and now.

Apocalypse 7 14 And I said to him: My Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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Agreed so why do you insist it is something that purgatory has to take care of??

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So, you agree that we pay for our sins? Please answer that question. Once you do we can proceed to explain how God continues the process of purification which was begun in this world if we die imperfectly purified.

Philippians 1 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he, who hath begun a good work in you, will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus.


Sincerely,

De Maria

Lets get back to the example of David's sin. God forgave him and erased his sin. But the effects of his sin remained. Specifically, because David gave occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme (2 Kings 12 26), David's son had to die.

If David's son had not died in payment for David's sin, and if David had not made reparation in another manner before his death. David himself would have paid for this sin in Purgatory.

So tell me, what is keeping us from suffering for our sins after death?

So if your circumstances like child dying and all the suffering we go through for not repenting take care of our unrepented sin why would God allow us to die with unrepented sin so that there has to be a purgatory? Why wouldn't he just allow you to suffer all the punishment here on earth?
I understand God purifies our works through the fire but I don't see it quite the way you explain it with purgatory.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

So if your circumstances like child dying and all the suffering we go through for not repenting take care of our unrepented sin why would God allow us to die with unrepented sin so that there has to be a purgatory? Why wouldn't he just allow you to suffer all the punishment here on earth?

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1. I don't think you yet understand. We are not purified of unrepented sin. We are purified of the effects of sin which we committed for which we have repented and been forgiven. Look again at the example of David. He repented and was forgiven. But he had to pay for the effects of his sin.

2. As for why God does what He does? God's ways are far above our ways. But I believe God's ways are just. To put it simply, "I don't make up the rules. I just follow them. "

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I understand God purifies our works through the fire but I don't see it quite the way you explain it with purgatory.

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Where do our works reside and what does it mean to purify our works?

We believe it means to purify our souls since we don't take anything with us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

He repented and was forgiven. But he had to pay for the effects of his sin.

That is exactly what does not make sense.
If Jesus died for our sins
We repented of our sins
We had earthly 'punishment' for our sins

WHY would we have to go through a purgatory that seems like saying Jesus didn't finish our forgiveness on the cross. Jesus DID say it is finished

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The only way you can make that understanding out of this verse is to take it out of Scripture all together.

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Are you denying that sin is iniquity or that inquity is sin?

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However, we are taught that the entire Scriptures were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit says in one verse that we must make satisfaction for our sins. We can't disregard that verse.

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Then show us the verse that says that we must pay the price in part of whole for our sins and let's look at it in context.

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Again, if we see that David had to pay for the temporal effects of his sin by the death of his child even though God had already forgiven him.

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Perhaps you are mixing up consequence of sin with paying the price for sin.

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Then we must make satisfaction for effects of our sins even though God has already forgiven us.

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Suffering the consequences of sin has nothing whatsoever to do with satisfaction for the price of sin.

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What you should do is answer the questions I asked you.

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How many times must I answer? I dealt with them over and over.

The Bible, the true word of God, never uses the word Purgatory. (It is no where in the Bible) It was introduced by the Catholic church during the dark ages (called dark, because there is NO LIGHT in them) to help instill fear and raise revenue. Sorry put that's the truth. When you die, your dead. The Bible states that death is a sleep. And there are only two resurections. Christ's 2nd coming is the first resurection. After the 1000 years then the wicked will be raised and that's judgement day. Blessed are those that are raised in the 1st resurection.

Hebrews 1:3
After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 7:27-28
Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

I don't see where there is room for purgatory in any of these verses

Okay maybe you could explain the difference between the judgment day for believers and purgatory and how they relate to each other.

From everything I read I just can't see it. To me
Purgatory is saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is not good enough to satisfy the demands and payment for sin. Purgatory must satisfy part of the payment for sins through suffering after death. That is a works salvation, which makes it a totally false salvation.

Do Catholics still have to pay to get their loved ones out of purgatory? If they don't why has that changed?
Did the Catholic saints have to go through purgatory?
Is the length of time in purgatory longer for people that have more sins?
What is the longest and what is the shortest that a person spends in purgatory?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

That is exactly what does not make sense.

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So you must see in order to believe? Did you not quote to me this verse:
"Lean not on your own understanding"?

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If Jesus died for our sins

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He did.

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we repented of our sins

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I have. I hope you have as well.

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we had earthly 'punishment' for our sins

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We did? Are you sure? Then you owe nothing in repayment for God's love?

Romans 13 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another. For he that loveth his neighbour, hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 8 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

Even the Jews knew that they had unknown faults:
Psalms 18 13 Who can understand sins? from my secret ones cleanse me, O Lord:

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WHY would we have to go through a purgatory that seems like saying Jesus didn't finish our forgiveness on the cross. Jesus DID say it is finished

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That is true. Jesus did finish. But you misunderstood what He finished.

But Scripture is clear. By dying on the Cross He gave us an example to follow:

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.


Jesus didn't suffer and die so that we wouldn't suffer and die. Jesus suffered and died so that our suffering and death would be meritorious in the sight of God. Just as He was baptized so that we would be baptized.

Do we no longer die because He died? Yes we die. And if we die in Christ we also rise in Him.

Do we no longer suffer? Yes we suffer. And if we suffer with Him we will be glorified with Him.

But nothing impure will enter heaven. How many of us have been perfectly purified on this earth before we die? Therefore, God in His Mercy, Himself purifies us in His Fire so that we may enter heaven. God in His Mercy, Himself purifies us in the Blood of the Lamb so that we may enter heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I did not say I have to see to believe WHERE did you get that?
How can you even come to that conclusion after all I did say I believe in judgment day.

I have. I hope you have as well.
That is a non answer.

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

So you believe that Jesus was not sacrificed for our sins but merely an example!?
That even throws out the whole Old Testament and the Jews sacrifices that lead up to Jesus death!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you denying that sin is iniquity or that inquity is sin?

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No.

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Then show us the verse that says that we must pay the price in part of whole for our sins and let's look at it in context.

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Acts Of Apostles 26 20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.

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Perhaps you are mixing up consequence of sin with paying the price for sin.

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There is very little difference. But in David's case, Scripture is explicit:

2 Kings 12 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.


That is the effect of David's sin.

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Suffering the consequences of sin has nothing whatsoever to do with satisfaction for the price of sin.

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You'll have to show me where Scripture says that.

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How many times must I answer? I dealt with them over and over.

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I must not have seen them. Point to them or deal with them again.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by disccat

The Bible, the true word of God, never uses the word Purgatory.

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Nor does it use the word Trinity.

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(It is no where in the Bible) It was introduced by the Catholic church

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So was the word Trinity, Incarnation, and others.

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during the dark ages (called dark, because there is NO LIGHT in them)

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There is actually a great deal of light in them for those who see that during that time, the Catholic Church was the light of the world. Untiring in bringing the light of Christ to the ends of the earth.

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to help instill fear and raise revenue.

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Typical anti-Catholic bigotry. Since you can't engage in a sensible religious and Scriptural discussion, you resort to spreading lies.

Please, if you want to have a polite discussion, provide the details for these accusations. Otherwise admit that you have no idea what you are talking about. The only fear which the Church instilled throughout the ages was the "fear of God" which is the beginning of wisdom. And the only revenues they collected were the tithes which were used to build temples to God most high and to help the poor.

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Sorry put that's the truth. When you die, your dead. The Bible states that death is a sleep. And there are only two resurections. Christ's 2nd coming is the first resurection. After the 1000 years then the wicked will be raised and that's judgement day. Blessed are those that are raised in the 1st resurection.

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I have already handled these objections to Catholic Teaching. Please refer to message #38. Please review that message and address it. We can continue from there:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...on#post1171619

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I did not say I have to see to believe WHERE did you get that?

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Frequently, in common speech, people say, "I see!" to mean "I understand".

It is in that context that I used the statement "must you see to believe?" In other words, must you understand in order to believe?

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How can you even come to that conclusion after all I did say I believe in judgment day.

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Because you said:

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That is exactly what does not make sense.

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That is a non answer.

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There was no question to answer. I was simply breaking down your response point by point.

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So you believe that Jesus was not sacrificed for our sins but merely an example!? That even throws out the whole Old Testament and the Jews sacrifices that lead up to Jesus death!

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Where did you get that?

Jesus certainly was sacrificed for our sins. But Jesus did not suffer so that we shouldn't.

Scripture is clear, if we don't suffer for our sins and for our fellow man and for the Gospel, we are not children of God:

Hebrews 12 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.

Now, is chastisement punishment for sin or not?

If it is then Scripture is clear that we suffer for our sins.

Oh, and I notice that you always claim that your beliefs must be backed up by Scripture. Yet I seem to be the only one producing Scripture in our exchanges.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

In fact
Why would God go through telling us of the different Judgments for the non-believers, the believers, the nations, etc... and he would detail the crowns and all
He even shows us about the seals and the trumpets yet for some odd reason he doesn't give any detail on purgatory.
Why is that?

DeMaria, Are you somehow saying the authority of the church here on earth somehow can help us in paying back for our penance?

I feel we can expect to be given a lesson in teaching from the Father when we make the wrong choices on our path in life. And that we are told to rejoice in His teaching.

Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
Proverbs 22:8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

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Right. And perhaps he could explain this passage in light of his belief in purgatory:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

Hard to fit purgatory into that unless Jesus is in purgatory.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

No.

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Okay if inquity is sin, then let's look again at 1 John 1:9

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

So, he cleanses us from sin/inquity. So what is left?

And if we can pay the price for any sin, why could we not pay the price for ALL sin. The doctrine of purgatory therefore makes the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross un-necessary.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Okay if inquity is sin, then let's look again at 1 John 1:9

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

So, he cleanses us from sin/inquity. So what is left?

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Where and when does He cleanse us from all unrighteousness?

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And if we can pay the price for any sin, why could we not pay the price for ALL sin.

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We do. Thanks be to God, Jesus died for our sins so that we could pay the price for our sins.

Again, lets look at the case of the child who breaks the neighbors window. You have to pay the price for the window because the child has no money of his own. Do you let the child go unpunished?

No, the child must now pay you for the price of the window or at least suffer some consequences. Am I right?

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The doctrine of purgatory therefore makes the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross un-necessary.

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No. The doctrine of purgatory applies the merits of the Jesus' sacrifice directly on our sins. Since at this point, we can no longer make satisfaction on our own. It is the Father making payment for the sins which we didn't have the wherewithal to pay ourselves.

And this is clearly evident when St. Paul says, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ., Obviously, Christ left something for us to do. His suffering was WANTING. And St. Paul suffered to make up for those wantings. And this is an example for you to follow:

1 Corinthians 11 1 Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

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But that is different isn't it? Does Scripture say that either you or Tom are Pillars of Truth?

If not, why do you exhalt yourselves above the Church? Are you infallible? Please answer the question.

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You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

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I'm sorry, did you answer the question on what are works of iniquity?

As for will it happen after death? Well, we are judged after we die are we not? If we look at 1 Cor 3:15, this man is being judged and his "works" tested.

Now I believe "works of iniquity" are sins. And I believe works of iniquity are the same as works of straw which will burn.

Now, sins do remain in the soul, as I think you agree. And if works of iniquity are being burned away, then the soul is being purified.

I hope that answers your question. Please answer mine. What are works of iniquity to you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Right. And perhaps he could explain this passage in light of his belief in purgatory:

2 Cor 5:8
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
NKJV

Hard to fit purgatory into that unless Jesus is in purgatory.

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Not at all Tom.

First, Scripture says that:

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Who do you think is testing your works? Who do you think I believe is purifying our soul? Certainly it isn't a real fire in an actual stove. It is God!

Therefore, this verse explains it all very well.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

But if not, let me give you a bit of background. What are the Seraphim? The burning ones. Why are they burning? Because they are close to God.

It is God, the Consuming Fire who is burning with love for us. It is into this Fire that we who are going to Heaven will be thrust. But we won't be burned. We will be like the Seraphim:

Exodus 3 2 And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt.

But those who are imperfectly pure will suffer loss, but they will be saved:

Proverbs 17 3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

And those who have hated God all their lives and want nothing to do with Him will suffer His presence anyway. Where would they go?

Acts Of Apostles 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and are;....

Psalms 138 8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

In fact
Why would God go through telling us of the different Judgments for the non-believers, the believers, the nations, etc..... and he would detail the crowns and all
He even shows us about the seals and the trumpets yet for some odd reason he doesn't give any detail on purgatory.
why is that?

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He does. But you simply don't recognize it.

That is not what I meant I meant the teachings we believe from our church beliefs and the doctrines we follow.

What are the works of iniquities are sin --which is separate from good works
Works of straw are what I explained are good works that you do to please God that do not please him.


Quote: De Maria

So I could use the same logic of see/understand to apply to you not understanding what I or Tom are trying to get across. Must you understand to believe?

But that is different isn't it? Does Scripture say that either you or Tom are Pillars of Truth?

If not, why do you exhalt yourselves above the Church? Are you infallible? Please answer the question.

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You keep saying about how we must suffer and be punished but you have yet to explain how you get that it is AFTER death that we have to suffer and be punished through purgatory.

I'm sorry, did you answer the question on what are works of iniquity?

As for will it happen after death? Well, we are judged after we die are we not? If we look at 1 Cor 3:15, this man is being judged and his "works" tested.

Now I believe "works of iniquity" are sins. And I believe works of iniquity are the same as works of straw which will burn.

Now, sins do remain in the soul, as I think you agree.
NO I said that Jesus sacrifice cleanses us from all sin.