I have a conscience yet I don't read the bible or go to church; same with my wife and kids. Weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
|
I have a conscience yet I don't read the bible or go to church; same with my wife and kids. Weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Here is the issue with that. That verse did not say that direct personal knowledge is primary. What is says is that the truth of God is seen in all creation, and some will deny His existence. It is an indicator of the existence of God, but neither the sole or primary source. The Bible is God's word and is the primary source.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
The difference between "personal knowledge" and what scripture says is that many people may think that they know something based upon personal experience and can come up with all sorts of strange ideas because they make assumptions and fail to validate them. This scripture is quite specific on what scripture reveals and that revelation is to lead us to seek out the true God. And where do you find out about the true God? In the Bible.
It is worship of the creation rather than the creator which is idolatry, not following His word as He commanded us to do.
And God has already revealed Himself to you via your conscience. And what happens inside your head and heart when you are hiking around in the great outdoors or see a beautiful sunset or watch a litter of puppies (or your own child) being born?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Nah, I believe your parents instill what you call a conscience by their disciplining method. It's basically your view of right and wrong as experienced during those important developmental years from 0 - 5. It's easy to see: look at a "bad" kid then look at his home life - there is a direct connection, regardless of religious presence in the child's life.
Not necessarily. And I'm not talking about any religious influence. There are studies that show conscience is inborn, not gotten from parents, but is pre-parental.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I know "bad" kids who have wonderful parents, and I know "good" kids who have miserable parents. Now what?
I do also believe that kids are born with basic goodness as a blank slate, they have to to survive. As per your observations about the good/bad you never fully know what goes on in someone else's home when you're not there all the time.
I believe a great many people use hell to scare people to God because they don't understand the real concept of hell and that it is the relationship with God that needs to be taught. Too many people don't understand it's really all about our falling out of relationship and our reconciling a relationship with Him.
Not to me, it isn't. But if it is to you, I'm OK with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
It is about sin and the cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnynkids
Sin and the work on the cross is the beginning of reconciling the relationship. We fell from relationship because of sin, we are reconciled through Christ and the work on the cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Indeed! But it is only those who choose to receive the sacrifice on the cross who are reconciled. The rest have chosen the path to hell because of their sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnynkids
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV
The ones who choose not to believe are indeed choosing not to believe and have a relationship and will spend eternity in hell. But what does that have to do with how or why people are "taught to love God by fearing hell"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Hell is one dimension of truth that we cannot nor should not ignore. But it is not the sole or primary reason that we should use for teaching people about God. Other the other hand, if we leave out any part of the gospel, then we have not given them the full gospel.Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnynkids
If we want people to love God, we have to tell them the full story. The story is not complete with giving the story of how God so loved us that even after we chose hell, that He chose to come to earth manifest as a man in order that He might take the penalty for us, even for those who were pounding the nails in His hands, so that we might have the opportunity to be reconciled to Him.
Nope, they don't choose to believe. The only power they have is to say no. If there is belief, it is because the Holy Spirit has already been at work in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith." (Luther)
"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Spirit." I Cor. 12:3.
"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor. 4:6.
That states that it is the work of the Holy Spirit drawing us to God, but that does not say how we became estranged from God to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It is sin which separates us from God and who has sinned?
Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV
Every person has sinned. That was their doing. They chose to turn from God.
Calvinist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
And I quoted Luther? Surely you jest.Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnynkids
Did you some how think I was disagreeing that hell was a part of the whole thing? I wasn't, I think we are on the same page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
No, I did not think that you were disagreeing - I was just adding some additional input.Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnynkids
No, I don't. Lots of Calvinists do quote Luther actually. Your statement that it isn't up to us to believe hints at Calvinism. If I am wrong forgive me. I was just wondering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It's Lutheran belief, M-S or ELCA, with no hinting.Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnynkids
Josh 24:21-22
22 So Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him." And they said, "We are witnesses!"
NKJV
Josh 24:14-16
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
NKJV
Uhh, I don't know what those mean would mind explaining for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Two of the largest Lutheran church bodies in the U.S. are the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Missouri-Synod (LCMS or M-S)Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnynkids
Why are you quoting from the OT? Good try at cherry-picking though!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Do you not accept the OT as scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV
Sadley I think it's all about power, trying to force a person to do something that they don't want to, you'll see some form or another of it in all walks of life.
Lolololol of course I do, but you have cherry-picked passages that "prove" your pov much like Southern plantation owners cherry-picked to prove that God approves of slavery. You have just demonstrated that anyone can use the Bible to prove anything they want to. The verses you chose are out of context and have nothing to do with conversion per se.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This wasn't for me I know, but I'd like to ask why is it you feel they are out of context?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I chose those references because it is clear that we chose what God it is that we follow. We can choose for the true god or for a false god. There is not just one way that we can choose to go, as you suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
If you think that they are out of context, then demonstrate that by going to the context and let's discuss. I trust that you are aware that there is much more in scripture to refute the belief that we have no free choices.
If we claim to have chosen to believe in God by our own power, that is work righteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes, we have free will--to do good or to do evil. Even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ have free will and can do good or evil.
Please read the entire passages and consider the context of the verses you quoted.
That is your definition, but it is not what I see in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I have. Perhaps you should know that I used to be a member of the Reformed Church. I know what I am talking about, and have studied both sides of the issue.Quote:
Yes, we have free will--to do good or to do evil. Even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ have free will and can do good or evil.
Please read the entire passages and consider the context of the verses you quoted.
I'm sorry about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And?Quote:
I have. Perhaps you should know that I used to be a member of the Reformed Church. I know what I am talking about, and have studied both sides of the issue.
Moonlitwaves,
If we look closely at what the bibles says about God it does tell us that we should loved God for many of His very good, kind, merciful and forgiving attributes.
That and also the fact that he tell us how to live this life with the 10 Commandments and others that Jesus gave us such as "Love one another as I have loved you."
Yes God does tell us of the consequenses of doing evil.
That. I think, is fair to to tell us both sides of the issue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
And having studied what scripture says, I have had to reject Calvinism as being as much in error as Arminianism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Reject all you wish. I believe in neither.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Wondergirl,
As do I not believe in either of them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Good, but interesting since you were promoting one of the key tenets of Calvinism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Not so. Calvinism goes much, much further than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Absolutely, and I am not saying the understanding of consequences should be omitted.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
There have just been so many numerous occasions where people ask if someone is going to hell for some type of sin. I can't help but wonder if these people are taught to be good people and do good things because of fear of the consequences rather than WHY they should be good people. I have spoken to many atheists who turn away from God because of the wrong ideas they have in their head about Him. The first impression that some got of God was cruelty. First impressions are hard to get rid of so guess what that means for those people?
It should be more along the lines of... This is why and how you receive forgiveness for that sin you mentioned... Instead of... That sin will send you to burn for eternity.
Everyone who has posted so far has agreed that attempting to get people to believe in God by using the fear of hell is shallow and it is NOT lasting.
But the truth still remains that it happens all the time and I feel it's just so wrong! We need to let God do the convicting! I don't know about everyone else but God didn't convict me to ask for salvation by threatening me with hell, but rather He convicted me by showing me that I am better than the sin that bound me down. Though I understood hell was the consquence of not choosing God, He didn't use that against me.
Conviction then and even from my sins now does not come from fear of the punishment, but it does come from the knowledge He instills in me that He created me to be better than that, and doing right and always being a good person is the only right and good way to be. When I fall sort of His expectation, that is my conviction!
My point is that's the way it should be and would be if people would let God do the convicting. But it doesn't always happen that way.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:10 PM. |