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Originally Posted by scottyv
De Maria,
This is not an attack;
No problem. I'm used to people disagreeing with me.
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I truly have great respect for those who think about such things.
I'll take that as a compliment. I also have great respect for those people. I assume you are amongst them.
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However, it is a criticism and a challenge to your thought process.
I love a challenge.
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(I will probably have my post removed for saying this by the censorship Nazi’s, but…)
Lol!! Are you kidding. This is probably the nicest criticism I've received on this forum and none of the others have been censored. In fact, I believe they tried to censor me, but their appeals backfired because, thanks be to God, the moderator to whom they addressed their concern is a reasonable man.
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Your logic seems a bit flawed.
Just saying so, doesn't make it so. I hope you have some evidence to back up your contention.
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(Is flawed too harsh of a word for this forum? Did the preface sneak me by?)
No.
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If you literalize the story of the Garden of Eden it is problematic and to do so is to miss the intended meaning but for the sake of getting to the flaw of your reasoning let’s see where it takes us?
OK.
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God created the Garden and everything in it including the serpent (which you presumed is “Satan” despite the fact that it is never mentioned).
Without going into a great Bible study, although the book of Genesis does not say that the serpent is Satan, it is revealed in other parts of Scripture:
Apocalypse 12 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
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God also created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and told our two protagonists not to eat of it or they would surely die.
That is true.
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In the literal version of the story, it is the serpent that tells the truth and God that lies.
I can see how you could interpret it that way. However, we don't interpret God's Words as a lie in the literal version. But simply as a double entendre. They literally did "die" when they ate of the "fruit of knowledge of good and evil". But it was a spiritual death.
Anyway. Lets continue your view.
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The serpent tells them they will not die, that God doesn’t want them to have the knowledge.
And therein is the lie. God does want them to have the knowledge, but not the experience.
Therefore, the Serpent, the Devil or Satan, the Father of Lies, did lie.
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This is the truth as god forbade the eating of the fruit. They eat of the fruit, they do not die, and are now fully aware of good and evil.
No. The Devil lied, God did forbid the eating of the fruit, but to keep them from experiencing sin and death of the soul, not to keep them from knowing about good and evil. And Adam and Eve never become fully aware of good and evil. Their nature is fallen and their intellect darkened. That makes it easier for Satan to have influence over their deeds.
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It is God who lies because they do not die, instead God casts them out and punishes them for disobeying him just like any good father would. He doesn’t just banish them from paradise, but punishes billions of people for the sins of the original.
But they did die. Their soul died, they become as living dead. God does cast them out because they have cast Him out of their soul, that is the dying death. They have chosen to no longer live with him and God permits them to leave.
And God does not punish their progeny, they have punished their progeny. Look at it this way. Lets say you inherit 1 Billion dollars. Then Satan comes along and tricks you into giving him those billions. You have nothing. Then you get married and raise children. Which of your children will inherit your billion dollars? Answer: None of them.
You have nothing to give. Your billion dollars have been taken.
The same happened to Adam and Eve. They gave away their inheritance. Their children can only inherit what they now have. A fallen nature.
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
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Before you consider that God did not lie, that it was a metaphorical death let’s keep in mind the problematic difficulty of reading a story literally and then imposing our metaphorical preferences.
The Israelites claimed a god of justice and mercy but you describe a god who has condemned all of humanity to suffering because of a single act of disobedience. That is not a God of goodness, that is a harsh task mater.
Please quote me where I describe God as one who condemned all of humanity for a single act of disobedience?
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This logic is not new, it has been the basis for the foundations of orthodox religion for some time and has been used to justify doctrines of purity, perfection, suffering, sin, disobedience and much, much more. This characterization however, is not consistent with the God that Jesus describes and there is where the problem really lies within the tradition of Christianity. You can not have it both ways. You can not have the God of the literal Garden and the God of love and mercy that Jesus promotes. It is a square peg and a round hole but that doesn’t stop people from trying to force fit the peg.
You have mischaracterized the logic. The logic is true and wise. It is beautiful to behold. However, your twist upon it is false.
You want to put the blame on God. And that is fine. God is ultimately the Creator of everything.
Ecclesiasticus 11 14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God.
But God gave all of us a choice. He gave all of us free will:
Deuteronomy 30 19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
But that does not lessen the fact that it was the creature who denied the Creator. It was man who chose to do Satan's will rather than to do God's will. Therefore it was man who chose to suffer and to experience evil.
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I too have been convinced that there is a god (I am willing to bet we have had different epiphanies). As to whether God is good or not is still up for debate as far as I am concerned. But I am a fan of the story so far. I truly appreciate being a character in this grand epic and will continue to try to play my part. However, to say that God is good and try to prove it with your logic, you have come up a bit short. It is going to echo ominously empty when you are speaking to people who have actually suffered, and you seem to be a person who really wants to share God.
That, unfortunately, is true. People who have not converted to a love of God beyond love of self do not respond well to that doctrine. That doesn't invalidate the doctrine.
And there are many people who suffering learn to embrace God all the more, understanding that unless they do so, their suffering is all for naught. Better to suffer and to thereby help others spiritually, then to suffer and to help no one, not even yourself.
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
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Here’s something that might be worth your time and experience. Go to the Museum of Tolerance, go on a weekend and listen to one of the child survivors as they tell of their experience. Then afterwards if you are still convinced that there is good in suffering, take the tissue from your pocket (Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you, bring tissue!), wipe your eyes, blow your nose and demonstrate to them the that God is good and there is goodness in suffering. Pay special attention to their eyes, if you look real close you will see the haunted empty chasm from the rent in their soul. Watch how they react, and take note of how they tolerantly allow you to justify this goodness, watch how they allow you to keep your beliefs, as they realize that like the garden of Eden and the point of the Garden of Eden story is, Ignorance is Bliss and they wish that life wouldn't have forced them to bite from the fruit. They will smile politely and thank you for listening and hope (because they have learned that prayer is futile) that the horrors of their lives, the nightmares of their waking dreams do not revisit and present themselves upon you in your life time.
I don't know where the Museum of Tolerance is, but I'd like to go sometime to give the message of Jesus Christ.
As for you, do me a favor. Read the stories of the Saints. You might want to begin with Mother Theresa. See how the doctrine of suffering is so beneficial to those who suffer and realize that their suffering is not for naught. See how they light up when they are told that their suffering is a sign of predestination. See how they light up when they are told that their suffering indicates that God loves them as his own children.
Hebrews 12 6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. 9 Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.
Luke 16 20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, 21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
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I say this to challenge your thought process not to be antagonistic, (though sarcasm often seeps in). If I come off jaded, please accept my apologies because the medium of posting lacks the nuances of sincerity that I truly have for all that try to figure these things out.
Have no fear. I tend to be very up front. People seem to consider my words rude. I echo your sentiments however. If I seem to be offensive, I don't intend to be so. I am simply telling you what I believe:
Matthew 5 37 But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.
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Peace, Go with God,
Scotty
You also,
Sincerely,
De Maria
