Please. Have you even ever met an atheist? Apparently not...Quote:
You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
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Please. Have you even ever met an atheist? Apparently not...Quote:
You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
I worded that the way I did because it appears as though worthbeads may feel this way. If he chooses to ignore his feelings, he may very well grow old with a sense of unfulfillment or emptiness.
I have actually met several. I have even met many followers of other faiths as well. I am not so secluded that I have not experienced parts of the world and various people within it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
I have many places yet to go and much to learn but don't sell me so short so soon.
It does not seem fair to assume that I am ignorant in this way based solely on a single response that I gave to someone who shared their feelings.
These are merely some thoughts for worthbeads to consider or not.
Speech, I believe we have agreed to disagree on this before, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?
Because man is chemical processes. That's why. We are bags of mostly salty water. I know you won't like that description, but that's exactly what we are.
Why does religion seek to complicate the observable world with something which is not observable and non-falsifiable? The vast majority of things that we observe can be explained by science (and more will be explained in the future), yet you chuckle when a scientific explanation is put forth. Why?
Here is a website that will answer many questions for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
All About The Journey & Does God Exist Scientifically?
I can answer why I believe what I believe in the light of Islam,but then as worthbeads thoughts are on a Christian path, I refrain from quoting from what I believe...
That being said I agree with those saying its takes faith to believe in Science and the Creator together without having a war with our conscience.
If one leaves science and believes only in the Creator,then that makes one very ignorant of the miracles that exist in the universe.
And those who have faith in science and not in the Creator is also missing out... (I believe even if a person does not realise this, the soul yearns to receive guidance, love,be loved and depend on a higher being)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
Off topic, but it reminds me of the Star Trek episode when a pile of mostly carbon based chemicals lay on the floor after these humans were dehydrated.:)
Grace and Peace
Yes, children require loving parents to become well adjusted adults who then mate with a similar well adjusted adult to love and be loved. I do not believe in this innate need for higher spiritual power or else every single human being would feel that and that is certainly not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Capuchin, believe me I understand the science of man and I understand and appreciate what that science has done for man, so I'll get to your questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
Religion doesn't seek to complicate the observable world, it is not out to destroy, demonize or dismiss science. Science cannot explain everything in spite of the many presumptuous attempts to do so, neither can religion of course, but they don't have to be incompatible. I admit I can't prove the existence of God, but scientists seems to assume they'll eventually be able to explain everything. How do you reduce a thought down to a series of chemical reactions and electrical impulses? How do you explain falling in love as chemical reactions and survival instinct? These things are so much more profound than reducing it to instinct and chemical processes, and if science can't see that one should wonder just how intelligent these scientists are.Quote:
Why does religion seek to complicate the observable world with something which is not observable and non-falsifiable?
Like I said, life - especially human life - is so much more profound than paleocircuits and "neural platforms for bodily expression." It devalues mankind, it reduces us to being worth nothing more than a handful of dust, or "salty water" as you put it. Salty water is great for making pasta and taffy, but a human being is worth so much more. We can laugh, love, cry and reason, that is much more than science can ever fully explain.Quote:
The vast majority of things that we observe can be explained by science (and more will be explained in the future), yet you chuckle when a scientific explanation is put forth. Why?
rudi, I didn't mean for my comment to sound as rude as it did. I wasn't trying to sell you short, but rather point out the flaw in your logic. You're saying an atheist always has an underlying desire to believe, that they have an emptiness inside them, and frankly, that's just not true. I'm going to go bold here and say every atheist on this site feels quite "full" and does not feel there is something lacking in their life; at least not something that can be filled by belief in god (cause I'd really like a burger right now... :)). My point is your statement does not apply to the majority of atheists. I mean, if you don't feel satisfied by your lack of belief, why not seek out a belief? I think for most people it can be said if your belief system isn't working for you, you find one that does. For an atheist this is an easy jump because we never worry if we stop not believing in god we will go to hell. For a Christian to consider switching religions it's a much more involved process, as you have to consider you might go to hell for changing your beliefs. Atheists don't have that problem. We're all going to hell anyway! See you there, Cap, NK and my other buddies! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by rudi_in
speech I think the difference is you have a romanticized view of human life. You attribute something profound to love, hate, etc instead of looking at it from a scientific POV and attributing electrical pulses to such feelings. To a scientist, or someone who follows the scientific line of thinking, we aren't anything special. We're just bags of salty water with lots of electricity running through us. When you break it down, that's what a human is; we're flesh, blood, bone, water, gooey stuff, and there's all sorts of electricity running around in there too. On the LITERAL surface, that's a human. Scientists think on the literal surface. You, and many others, want there to be more than that to humans; it's romanticizing scientific reasoning. You can hook someone up to fancy machines and show them images to demonstrate the electrical impulses of feelings. It can actually be seen, certain parts of the brain light up when certain things happen. That's how scientists explain emotions - they can be seen.
I'm not saying you are wrong or less intelligent for thinking this way - I know you're a smart guy. But I think your religious beliefs lead you to think this way, whereas someone without religious beliefs looks at the literal surface.
Heh, Jill, I'm thinkin' flamegrilled. Mmmmm.
I am not even talking about atheists at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
I am well aware that not all atheists feel empty.
worthbeads, however, has said that he/she wants to believe in God but has some unanswered questions. Reference the following quote...
Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
As I stated before, to quote myself...
There is something that is nagging at worthbeads to believe. If belief never comes to him/her then it seems logical that being unfulfilled or feeling empty could be a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by rudi_in
It is not supposed to apply to the majority of anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
It was meant for worthbeads - based on statements made by worthbeads.
Actually, rudi, you DID mention atheists:
That directly says atheists are not fulfilled and have an emptiness in their hearts. I see your point that you intended that to only be directed at worth, but, again, you are saying if he chooses to not believe he will have an emptiness. How do you know if he lets go of the notion of heaven and hell he won't feel free and become fulfilled by other things in life?Quote:
You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die. No heaven, no hell, no big deal.
When I was a child and cried after losing my dog, was that a romanticized view of life, or did I hurt down to my very soul? For that matter, as a 46 year old man and I cried for hours after burying my dog this past June, was that just a romanticized view of life or did I hurt down to my very soul? Sure, there were chemicals brewing inside me and electrical impulses racing, but did that convert to the conscious emotional pain I felt over losing my best friend of 10 years, or was my pain the cause of those processes?Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Sure they can be seen, but which was the stimulus, the thought or the impulse? How do you convert electricity into a thought?Quote:
When you break it down, that's what a human is; we're flesh, blood, bone, water, gooey stuff, and there's all sorts of electricity running around in there too. On the LITERAL surface, that's a human. Scientists think on the literal surface. You, and many others, want there to be more than that to humans; it's romanticizing scientific reasoning. You can hook someone up to fancy machines and show them images to demonstrate the electrical impulses of feelings. It can actually be seen, certain parts of the brain light up when certain things happen. That's how scientists explain emotions - they can be seen.
Thanks for the kind words, but I don't believe it is religion that leads people to think that way, they have to be taught to think otherwise.Quote:
I'm not saying you are wrong or less intelligent for thinking this way - I know you're a smart guy. But I think your religious beliefs lead you to think this way, whereas someone without religious beliefs looks at the literal surface.
Religion cannot be forced down anyone's throat, it has to be understood,believed and accepted.
As for me my religion is not just a private thing, nor does it restrict myself from learning the sciences.
For me it is a way of life, with guidelines from the newborn to the dead, from how to keep myself clean to how to pray, from how to behave with those who believe and those who do not,from how to conduct myself in business transactions to divorce settlements,from how to treat my family to how to treat the needy,from the laws of inheritance to how to dress...
And this is why my faith completes my life...
My quote says that there is a continued desire to believe that is not fulfilled. Being directed at worthbeads, when I say "you choose" it means worthbeads chooses.Quote:
Originally Posted by rudi_in
My hypothetical situation to worthbeads is that God or no God, heaven or no heaven, hell or no hell, if he wants to believe and never does there is the possibility that he is left unfulilled.
The key here is that worthbeads said that he wants to believe.
If you want something and never get it, would that not leave you unfulfilled in some way?
There are some good books on Creation vs Evolution if you are as inquisitive about your logical side as you say you are. Not to say one way or another, but if scientists and people were as "Logical" as they say they are, society would not be so quick to displace the Creation theory. Do you realize that Evolution has become so accepted as truth that it is taught as fact in schools? Do you realize that it is still given the title of "Theory"? This means it has not been proven as fact... I am not saying to believe in one or the other, I am simply trying to get people to not believe everything you are taught. We have to be free thinkers and think for yourself. Test everything. Do you realize that the creation theory says that the earth is only 6000 yrs old? Noahs flood is what caused the dinosaurs to die off, causing the polar ice caps to form instantly and not over millions of years. Read some objective books on Carbon dating and you will find that it is not a reliable way of dating objects. They have found sub-tropical plant fossils in the north pole. Something to think about.Quote:
Originally Posted by worthbeads
Isn't Creation theory pretty much "Let there be" this and "Let there be" that? Is there something I am missing?Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzman
Speech:
That implies there IS a soul. I know you believe there is such a thing, but there is no proof of such a thing.Quote:
did I hurt down to my very soul?
I don't know, I'm not a scientist. I'm just a boring business student. :)Quote:
Sure they can be seen, but which was the stimulus, the thought or the impulse? How do you convert electricity into a thought?
In a way I agree with you here. Unless one is taught about the electrical impulses and how on a literal surface the human body functions, they will more than likey assume it's "magic" or "god" or whatever. When we don't understand something, we look for a way to explain it. I guess what I meant to say is your religion furthers your belief there is something more profound to humans than what science has demonstrated.Quote:
Thanks for the kind words, but I don't believe it is religion that leads people to think that way, they have to be taught to think otherwise.
rudi, I see your point. Your comments were directed at worth and at worth alone.
But there is still the possibility that if he chooses NOT to believe, if he realizes belief DOESN'T fill his needs, that lack of belief WILL fill his needs. People often talk about how accepting Jesus into your hearts gives you a sense of fulfillment, but why can't that same fulfillment be reached by rejecting him? To say one can only be fulfilled by accepting religion is not accurate. Religion can set you free - so can lack of religion.Quote:
If you want something and never get it, would that not leave you unfulfilled in some way?
Yes, there is the possibility that if worthbeads has a change of heart and no longer has a desire to believe that there will be no sense of emptiness.
No, I can no more prove there is such a thing as a soul than science can prove our thoughts and feelings are nothing more than impersonal electrical impulses and chemical processes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Boring? No way, unless of course you're an accounting major :)Quote:
I don't know, I'm not a scientist. I'm just a boring business student. :)
My faith confirms my belief that we are more than bags of salty water and places a much higher value on life. That's why science says a fetus is easily disposed of tissue and faith says it's a child of infinite value. As Capuchin describes it, instead of telling my wife I love her, I should be able to get away with saying that her "visual, chemical and behavioural cues" make her a good genetic match to my instinct to protect my own genes. Think that would work? :DQuote:
In a way I agree with you here. Unless one is taught about the electrical impulses and how on a literal surface the human body functions, they will more than likey assume it's "magic" or "god" or whatever. When we don't understand something, we look for a way to explain it. I guess what I meant to say is your religion furthers your belief there is something more profound to humans than what science has demonstrated.
I'll give you that one. At least you acknowledge there are electrical impulses.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Nope, good 'ol HR! :)Quote:
Boring? No way, unless of course you're an accounting major :)
Yes, your faith has everything to do with it. I won't get into the fetus thing with you; you can't bait me, not here! :pQuote:
My faith confirms my belief that we are more than bags of salty water and places a much higher value on life. That's why science says a fetus is easily disposed of tissue and faith says it's a child of infinite value.
Well that depends, does your wife have a sense of humor? :) Just because science has a method for observing and dictating where emotions come from doesn't mean you can't express them in another way, with words that are more pleasing to hear. Remember, when the electrical impulses in your brain tell you you love your wife, and you in turn tell her, electrical impulses start up in her brain to covey emotion, presumably, happy ones (unless she's pi$$ed at you and you're trying to say "I love you" to make up for what you did wrong, that is!). Maybe THAT'S where we get the idea of "electricity" in a relationship...Quote:
As Capuchin describes it, instead of telling my wife I love her, I should be able to get away with saying that her "visual, chemical and behavioural cues" make her a good genetic match to my instinct to protect my own genes. Think that would work? :D
Jillian, I'm not trying to bait anyone, OK? And if science can explain female behavior then I'm all for it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
You didn't know? Scientists are all afraid of women so we get deemed the "mysteries" of the universe. They are afraid to figure us out because we might have magical powers to make their brains explode. Don't you worry, there's an underground society of female scientists who are trying to harness the brain-exploding ability and once they do... well, lets just say if your wife tell you to rub her feet, you damn well better do it! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
That's what I'm afraid of :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
I believe in God because someone or something had to create the universe. When I hear the Big Bang Theory, I think, "great...but who made those gases that combusted?" Everything else is questionable...
Who made god? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by giani513
That is a question asked many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
My answer to that may not be what you are looking for as it is not scientific .
God created all that exists on the universe and beyond, this does not mean that the Creator has to have the same characteristics of the created.God does not need to be created or formed or evolved,He stays the same always.He has no beginning and no end.
If God had a beginning then He would cease to be God, as this beginning would make Him similar to His creations. If He had an end then He ceases to be God.
Time does not exist for God as it does for humans and other creation, He is the Creator of time,hence He is not affected by time.
God is beyond time.
There was no need to "make god" because there never was a lack of god.
Why does there ever need to be a lack of these gasses?
If God is eternal, I see no reason not to posit that energy is eternal.
Because the theory that everything started with the big bang would be incorrect if there was matter before the big bang.
Energy is not matter. Big bang theory does not give an explanation for what was before the big bang. It states that our universe started at the big bang.
Gas is not energy. It is made up of atoms, and as such is matter.
Matter is made from energy.
I have no problem with God creating everything in a Big Bang. It's one theory among many, the most prominent being black-hole Big Bangs, an oscillatory universe, Penrose's heat death entropy universe, or M-Brane collision.
We have little evidence either way. But I see no way for a creator to avoid having been created, maybe by a bigger creator, and this iteration continues on forever, so I see it much simpler to posit that he didn't cause the big bang and that the big bang was a consequence of an eternal energy (like the other theories posit).
My only issue really is that you have as much evidence as I do (none), yet you argue as if you had more. I don't believe that it's a valid argument for the existence of a God.
Their statement that they don't know what happened before the Big Bang isn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
Scientific. Yet they have no problem. Neither do they have a problem with the seeming paradox of infinite space-and ultimate location. So certainly the unknown or paradoxical isn't an insurmountable issue for them. So why should they require that it be an insurmountable issue for us?
I cannot understand why God has to be in a box, with His chemical properties,biological characteristics,genus,family, and location listed.
He will not be God if we are able to do such things.
He is the One who started creation and He does not have to be created, if He was ever created then He is not God.
I cannot understand why humans need to see,touch God to know He exists.
The whole universe in its vastness,uniqueness in design, how it all works makes me wonder how can one not see the handiwork of a Creator.
When we look into science we find that each biological organism is built with perfection unless there is an exception to the norm (which maybe diseased etc).
Everything in nature has its function in the cycle of life and death, the Creator is the creator and sustainer of all that exists.
P.S -another question
-To my understanding, the Quran states that every living thing is made up of water(not 100%,but water is a main component)-could this be the reason that scientists think that everything came from the same source when life began?
You cannot see a way to avoid being created, that's because of your limitations. God has no limitations, and hence can see ways to do everything.
:)
Hmmm I enjoy these debates :)
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