Did you just equate someone being gay to a parent shooting dead their child?? Then you say in the same post that god hates gays passionately?
I think you need to take a step back and put some perspective in your life.
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Did you just equate someone being gay to a parent shooting dead their child?? Then you say in the same post that god hates gays passionately?
I think you need to take a step back and put some perspective in your life.
Are you out of your mind? You do realize that GOD IS GOD! God allows us to make our own choices. Are you saying that you want everyone to not be able to die? Are you saying that God is just like the father who may or may not have killed his child!? Are you trying to say that God is bad? Dude, i don't know you, but it sure does sound like you need to... I don't even know because I've never heard, seen or read anything so ridiculous!Quote:
Originally Posted by XMouse
A few things here...
There is MUCH more evidence to show that homosexuality is genetic than not. By removing a certain chromosome in (I can't remember... a rabbit or a mouse or something), scientists have found that this animal had begun showing signs of homosexuality.
The "all or nothing" idea of the Bible is definitely for another thread... but I will say that there are plenty of Christians that do not believe that what is written in the Bible is 100%... 100% true... 100% accurate... or 100% valid
Also, if homosexuality is SUCH a big issue with Christianity, why doesn't Jesus mention it once? Not one time does He mention it. Yes, He does say to uphold the Law but also abolishes parts of that same Law. Just seems strange for Him not to mention anything about it... unless what was mentioned was intentionally stricken from the Bible long before any of us could have had a chance to see it.
That's not what I'm saying.
Read: The End of Faith- It's a book that might open your eyes.
Tell you what. I will read your entire book if you actually read the entire Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by XMouse
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Because Jesus never mentions homosexuality are we to assume then that Jesus did not care about wife beating or incest, just because He said nothing about them? Besides, why would you care what Jesus says or not? You wouldn't believe or follow it even if He did... would you?
Sorry, but if he was gay, why would he be married? Many ministers will admit that they STRUGGLE with those temptations, but they fight them, not embrace. And a married minister wouldn't be embracing that temptation.
The whole problem with your argument is you put "gay" sin above all others, and that is discrimination of one sin over another. Not only is it prejudicial, but short sighted as sin is sin, and there is no priority set, only by man. God commands us to love the sinner, but if you discriminate against him you are going against what God commands us to do. You have effectively negated what God has told us, and put the sin before what is Gods' commandment. Okay hate the sin, but why make the person an object of your hate?? Justifying your position is putting your own opinions before Gods, and we know that will not work, and makes you a self richeous ------, and a hypocrite to the teachings of the Creator. That sin is greater than homosexuality!!Quote:
Should a Christian allow those taking the lead in the Church such as Ministers be gay
I believe that no man or women should ever be allowed to serve as a minster or a leader of any church that represents God. Why?
Talaniman sin is sin to me, there are no big sin and small sin, the topic was homosexuallity, that's why we are discussing this specific sin, yes there are many other sin but we are just trying to relate to this topic ;)
Thank you for pointing that out, but all due respect that is exactly what I have done. Responded to the question asked with my opinion. Is there a problem?
There is no problem that I know of :)
Do not assume to know what I believe. I typically never state what my beliefs are here... so you really have no room to make such an assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnaveLeber
Ok, well I assume that things that ARE mentioned still must hold true? (do we really have to go here AGAIN? )
~Burning a bull on the altar as a sacrifice as it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9)
~Selling my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7
~No contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24)
~Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.
~Exodus 35:2 clearly states that anyone working on the Sabbath should be put to death.
~Eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10)
~Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.
~Getting your hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27
~Lev 11:6-8 touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean
~Violating Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field - or wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend) permits stoning (Lev 24:10-16) Or burning to death at a private family affair like people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
(Yes, this was all taken - but cleaned up to be less offensive - from that infamous letter)
Who are you to say what my hypothetical minister does or doesn't do? He's my hypothetical minister and he'll do what I want him to... and I say that he was a closet homosexual that just decided to come out.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnaveLeber
And many o' married ministers have succumb to FAR worse temptations that just homosexuality... like pedophiles.
(yes, I had to go back to that as well... but if someone wants to make a infinite/blanket statement like "married ministers dont embrace temptation" well then... I have to lol)
When Christ died he died to make us not need to follow the old laws of the jews, which is everything that you had just stated, from the old testament. BY THE WAY--- I'm 18.
Ok, then why does the old law of the jews against homosexuality still hold true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dontchaknow
And why did you tell me your age? Are you trying to hit on me? Lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dontchaknow
Hmmm... makes you wonder why Moses ever implored the pharaoh to "let my people go."
((Speaking from my perspective, a Catholic male))Quote:
Originally Posted by Dontchaknow
All right, first it says slavery, and then it says "but treat your slaves with respect". I think it's safe to assume that "treating them with respect and kindness" would be more up to what the slave "owner" would consider kind and respectful than the actual slave right? Right.
Wives were also to be treated with respect right? But then they were kept from going to school, and this dehumanizing act was thought to still be "respectful" for a woman's place was not in the realm of education, but it was only in the "house" or "kitchen". So then, I ask you, what sort of shape or form do you think this "respect or being kind" could have taken towards a "slave".
If Christains were treating Christian women in what they considered to be "respectful", then I assume the Christians of the past would treat their "slaves" with the same dehumanzing definition of "respect", but worse. Like, "no education, only bread and water, two beatings instead of three, etc". Just like they wouldn't let them read.
The least you could do is not "make little" of the hardship that many slaves went through by brining that line in. I'm not saying all Christians did this, but every Christian that justfied having a slave, "did".
Dontchaknow disagrees: The women did thise things out of culture, they respected their husbands, and the husbands provided for and respected the wives. This is a forign concept to america. So yes... As a woman Ill say it easily. Women need to get in their place.
No they didn't do this out of culture. Many pagans let women be educated. But the religion of Christianity justified not permitting women to go to school. The Catholic Church actually had a big hold over how culture functioned. You are denying this? They had a whole book on how to go out and kill women for being witches. You need to go back to the books my darling because there is a big chunk of history which you are not aware of.
And you are silent about belittling what many slaves have gone through.
What do you mean the respect of women is a foreign concept to America? Are you talking about back in the day? Because yes, back in the day it was, but if you are talking about today, I'm sorry, you are very wrong and racist. Thanks for proving you are a racist by not putting what you said in past terms or at least giving your logic as to why what you have said applies to "today". No need to talk to you anymore, because I've never considered racist people to understand rational debate anyway.
What do you mean women need to get in their place? Are you sure you are a modern-day Christian woman? Or have you found some time-machine and have come from the year 1800? Christian women can run for president here in America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Chris_
It is an error to judge first-century Christians by what nominal Christians who were products of the apostasy did later. For example, 1st century Christians did not participate in the Roman military, did not involve themselves in politics, and were persecuted for their refusal to worship the emperor. Later, those claiming to be Christians would eventually make up the legions of the Roman armies, participate in politics, and, instead of being persecuted, persecute those who dared to disagree with them. So there is a big difference in behavior between these two groups.
As for women, first-century Christians would go strictly by scripture and not by man-made customs or rules. That was the WAY of early Christianity.
Excerpt
Women's roles in the early Christian Church
There is evidence to suggest that women in the early Christian church had significant status and roles, despite patriarchal theology. This was particularly true in the first three centuries of the Common Era
From the beginning of the early Christian church, starting with Jesus, women were important members of the movement. The gospels of the New Testament often mention Jesus speaking to women publicly and openly against the social norms of the time. He reached out to the marginalized in his society and thus, his appeal was great. He had female followers who were his sponsors and Mary Magdalene is recorded to be the first person to have the privilege of seeing Jesus after resurrection. As time went on and the disciples continued to spread Jesus' message by word of mouth, groups of Christians organized within the homes of believers, the private sphere of the woman. Those who could offer their home for meetings were considered important within the movement and assumed leadership roles.[2]
By the time Paul began his missionary movement, women were important agents within the different cities. The Pauline letters mention women such as Chloe, Prisca, Euodia and Syntyche as well as Phoebe.
Chloe appears to be a head of a household of an extended family.[3] Prisca is mentioned several times in the Bible, as either a missionary partner with the Apostle Paul or the wife of Aquila. Out of five times Priscilla and Aquila are mentioned as a couple, her name appears before Aquila's three times. This has prompted speculations by scholars that she may have been more important than Aquila, especially since it is believed they often organized gatherings within "her" home in Corinth.
There are also Euodia and Syntyche who were involved with the missionary work and traveled unaccompanied without male restrictions.
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The rest of the article can be read at the following website:
Christian views about women - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ministers must be happy people. The Bible says, "Is any happy; let him sing".Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope12
There is nothing wrong with sexuality. I'm sorry but this is one reason I no longer go to church. They commend people for so many wrong doings. When my church found out I was pregnant at 16 where in the bible does it say that is wrong. I'm sorry god warshipping people but to me you have been brain washed.
Hello Skell, No sin is sin, all sin is bad, the only difference is that the sin of homosexuality is the sin being discusse here in this post. No one but yourself seems to think that the discussion is prejudicial. We should and will always love the person who sins, but we must hate what God hates, the act of the sin. We hate the act of homosexuals but we do not hate those who are homosexuals. When I wrote my original post there is not hate for the homosexual person/s but there is only hate for the actions of the homosexual because this is what God hates. Really then if the sinner or the act of sin they committ cause hate of others to come up into their heart, is it not the homosexual themselves who promote the hate or make themselves objects of hate?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
No post I have ever posted, either this one or any other posts would show hate towards any person. I only show hate towards there sinful actions. If they continue in their sinful actions then they cause people to hate them. Is that wrong for people to hate the person? Yes it is, but I do not promote or condon that hate. God teaches us to hate the sin they commit not the sinner.
The hate of the act of homosexuality is what God hates and warning others is the doing of God's will not putting myself first but God and what he states is right and wrong, what is sin and what is not sin. How can one approve of the sinful act of homosexuality and say they love God? They can not, but they can place the homosexual person above the sin when it come to loving the person who commits the sinful act of homosexuality. Yes we must hate the sin and not the sinner.
Take care,
Hope12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebaines
Hello Ebaines,
It is a choice because why would God condemn something like homsexuality and then allow infants to be born with homosexuality born in them? That just don't make sense.
A father would not tell his son, I will punish you if you smoke one more time. Then take cigirettes and give them to his son.
Come on, lets get real here. God did not put these feeling in humans and then condemn them and tell us it is a sin and they will be punished unless they change. The only way a child is pre-disposed to homosexality is if that is what they learn as they are growing up, then they choose to follow that course.
I can't believe that people believe in such false propaganda as people being born homosexuals. It just is so unbelievable the extent some would go to practice a sinful course and then try to justify it with unreasonable comments as, "they were born that way." That is just wrong, they did not inherit homosexuality, they have chosen to be that way themselves.
Take care,
Hope12
Your entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong, or close minded it is.
The man is an idiot!
We are all born sinners, even an evil thought is considered a sin. That is why Jesus died on the cross, so that we can be forgiven for our humanly sins.
As far as being a minister who is homosexual or bisexual I personally feel like a minister should be the ultimate example of purity and living accordingly to the bible.
This is the crux of the discussion: you argue that homosexuality is a sin and therefore must be a personal choice; I argue that homosexuality is not a choice and therefore is not a sin. Your belief is based on a literal interpretation of a few passages in the bible (the "clobber" passages). My belief is based on a broader interpretation of general biblical themes (love, fairness, etc.), scientific findings, and personal experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope12
I am glad this thread was resurrected. Makes me even happier that I am now an atheist. I don't have to judge anyone and I can look at everyone in the same light and not be judging people on who they want to love or be with. This is why I don't believe in God or the bible. I believe you should love everyone EQUALLY. Shame on some of you... shame. :D
P.S.
Karma Karma Karma
Every part of your statement doesn't make any sense regarding those you are blatantly accusing of judging others.
My question for you is: what CULT were you a part of that required you to judge someone else?Quote:
Originally Posted by margarita_momma
Because it definitely wasn't any religion I have heard of! More specifically it definitely couldn't have been Christianity (which is what this thread is talking about), which means you are either off topic if you are talking about a cult you were in, or you are ill-informed regarding the Bible if you are talking about Christianity.
Why? Because Christians are taught in many different scriptures that judging others is a sin and that they are not to do it (just like they are taught homosexuality is a sin). A sin is a sin and all are viewed in the same light in God's eyes (this is from the Bible by the way). People that feel that they are to judge homosexuals have miss-interpreted the Bible and have ignored important scriptures as Christians should not hate homosexuals but instead their choice to continually sin! Therefore people that choose to sin continually should not be rewarded – especially with the job of teaching others how to stay away from sin.
They should also look at the conclusion of the Bible and act on that… what is it?… well it's the New Testament and what does it incite us to do? Follow Jesus's example! Jesus doesn't treat gays unfairly nor should any Christian do so because Christians should follow his example!
And so does the Bible and Jesus shows this through his actions in the New Testament! So wait… why was it again that you don't believe in the Bible??Quote:
Originally Posted by margarita_momma
This phrase says a lot regarding the integrity of your whole statement/argument! You condemn people that judge others; you accuse the Bible (unless you really were talking about some cult you were in) of being a book that incites people to judge others and also say that this is the reason you have lost your faith BUT you are finishing by using a word that is intended for judgment!Quote:
Originally Posted by margarita_momma
In case you didn't know, Karma is a Buddhist term. You are atheist. Now I understand what you are probably trying to say is you use this as your morals so all I have to say is that is wonderful that you still have good morals, but don't forget the definition/explanation of the word is also found in the Bible when it says to “treat others as you yourself would like to be treated.”Quote:
Originally Posted by margarita_momma
Need I say more? Every part of your statement does not flow with the rest of itself or hold water period. If you are going to say something don't contradict it seconds later. I think you should also try reading the Bible without putting your own twist on what it says. Because I know for a fact even though English may not be my mother tongue, Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged" is pretty straight forward and doesn't mean "You have to judge anyone" like you said at the start of your message, but actually "Do not judge" means... Do not judge! No matter what language you translate that to.
If someone is attracted to the same sex, but is celibate, does that make a difference? Is just being gay a sin? This is a double edge sword because it may include in this sin, a committed monogamous couple, who can never marry his/her partner.
Hi Everybody,
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; what is detestable. Lev. 18: 22 are clearcut words that should not be ignored. Detestable stands for abhorred, atrrocious, god-awful, despicable , disgusting. God says we should love them as we are suppose to love our neighbors, but He also says not to condone their sin. To give someone that is homosexual a leading position in church, is therefore clearly wrong.
Hi Magarita Moma,
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they new God , they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkend. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fool,s and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impuruty for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped created things rather than the Creator- who is forever praised. Amen
This is taken word for word from God's true word the bible in Romans 1: 20-25 NIV
It would not hurt you to read the rest of the chapter. I hope you did not burn your bible. It is never to late to repent.
I'm still confused since how do you know if someone is gay or not, unless they say so?? I mean if the head minister never says he is gay, how can you not stop him from being head minister, or whatever title is correct?
Perhaps because there were no open homosexuals at that time, and of course he did when he accepted all of the scriptures as valid and taught from them in the temple.Quote:
Originally Posted by desidario
And of course since all sin can be forgiven a divorced person can be forgiven for his divorce, and a homosexual can be forgiven, all he has to do is stop his sexual activities, since being forgiveen needs repentance, so the sinner has to admit their sin ( at least to thierself) and ask to be forgiven, That is the homosexuals problem, they can not truly get forgiven, since they are not turning from their sin
My question was a gay person who is celibate, being a leader of the church.
A gay person who is celebrate is not in sin, and can easily be a leader in the church, we have several in our church who are priests, Bishops and also hermits who are gay but have turned from the active life style.
Wow! Didn't you have a whole mouth full of pent up bible crap that you just had to get out on someone? Do you feel better now? Good! I'm happy for you. I started out commenting on all your little snide comments and bible versus but what is the use. You are just a brainwashed bible thumper and I am an atheist heathern. I have my thoughts and views and you have your bible and god.Quote:
Originally Posted by phil_stl
And yes, you are correct. I use Karma as a moral reference and I know the terms religious background, but seriously, there was no need for you to quote your little bible versus to me.
I suppose in my original post I did judge some people by insinuating that a lot of them were just judging homosexuals because the bible says its bad. But in my defense, any God that would say a good, God-fearing person that happens to love someone of the same sex will burn in hell when they die just because He doesn't like it, is a little sick to me. When I was a believer, I had my own image of God that didn't include the bible, only to be shuned from my church because I didn't believe in the so called Word of God. How can people believe in and live by a book that wasn't even written in the same century as when Jesus supposedly walked. Anyways...good luck with bashing other non believers. Its been fun. Happy New Year Everyone! :cool:
If someone is celibate to the extent that they have absolutely no sex life then how are they gay... or even heterosexual? Wouldn't they just be 'celebate', or 'neutral'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
The term generally used is sexual orientation. If I were to take your argument for a moment, and apply it to every young person who is a virgin, then the logical conclusion would be that every virgin is non-sexual. My point is that whether a person is homosexual or heterosexual has nothing to do with whether they are active but has everything to do with what they choose to be attracted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Now for this reason I disagree that the orientation is not a sin. Jesus spoke a great deal about our orientation in Matthew Chapter 5:
Matt 5:21-30
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder,' and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
NKJV
Notice that it is not the act which is considered a sin, but rather Jesus tells us that it is what is first in our heart - our orientation. For this reason, I would take the position that a person needs to deal with that orientation first in order to be a leader in the church.
What you are referring to is NOT orientation, but desire!! Attraction is not a choice; and orientation is no more a choice than is left-handedness.
Bravo Mama. It has always amazed me that certain Christians feel it is o.k. to dump on non-believers, but go ballistic when they get some of their own back!!
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