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No, it seems a no-brainer to me that the simple difference is I actually aimed for that area and have the skills and equipment necessary to increase the odds in my favor - as opposed to the chemical reactions necessary to eventually become man happening by chance from a primordial soup of simple organic compounds. What are the mathematical odds of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
Big Bang?? Where did that energy come from, where did all of the matter come from.
So is my faith in God based on empirical fact. It seems to me that this is what skeptics don't understand. I can't prove God exists, you have to actually experience God to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
True, first you must believe and then you must trust. :)Quote:
Belief and faith are different.
The answer to all of these questions is FAITH.
Assume the atheist believes that the big bang occurred and led to the creation of all we know in the universe. But what existed before the Big Bang? Did time commence with the Big Bang? Was there nothing, not even time before then? What existed before the Big Bang? What finally made "it" go Bang? Nobody knows. But the belief of what may have or have not existed before is based on faith.
The person who believes in God and science answers this question as follows: God existed before and caused everything we see. This too is based on faith.
The Creationist answers this question as follows: The story of Creation is what I believe, based on faith in God.
Does anyone know the true answer? No. Are we just basing our positions on our most basic beliefs and faith? Yes.
And when it comes to being judgmental. All are equal opportunity offenders, and in general, athiests are just as quick to judge Christians as ignorant something or others as Chrisitans are to declare athiests to be lost.
My personal beliefs are what they are, but they are most definitely based on faith.
(the above lecture, as taught in Existential Philosophy, 201)
Fr_Chuck, you seem to have missed a big portion of the conversation. The matter came from energy. This is well understood. Either you can say the energy is eternal, or you can say that the energy was created by god and that god is eternal. Either way you're still stuck with "what created that?". Both speculations have the same unknown, it seems logical to cut out god, because he's an unneeded step that we have no way to measure.
Speechless, you didn't explain my completely random bridge hands.
And as I explained, abiogenesis is not speculated to have happened by chance. It will have happened by chemical eactions which would have always happened in the conditions that were available.
I was raised in an extreem religion and my mother thinks she is the most christion person alive and yet she is the biggest gosip and judge you would ever meet!
Finally someone understands what I'm trying to point out.Quote:
Originally Posted by workcherrie
Sorry, this thread has gone a long way from your original topic, otto. I do apologise.
LOL that's OK. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
Hello again, otto:Quote:
Originally Posted by otto186
Dude! You didn't mention individuals. You said Christians. Of course there are jerks among the Christians... Just like there are jerks amongst any belief group - like yours. I'm an atheist too, but I'm not angry about it.
Why didn't you suggest that people who eat bread are hypocrites? I know several.
I love to argue when the argument makes sense. This one doesn't anymore.
excon
Haha looks like I stepped into something here lol
That's the rub my friend, you think it's logical to cut God out of it and I don't, for the simple fact that I cannot reconcile sentient beings emerging out of nothing without a guiding hand any more than I can imagine the new Dallas Cowboys stadium rising from the ground without architects, engineers and builders. It's just plain common sense - no science needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
I don't want or need to explain bridge hands. You can throw out any number of mathematical odds for things with known values, give us the odds for the unknown values that led to man rising from a primordial soup? Where did those chemicals come from? How did the right conditions come to be? Give us the odds...Quote:
Speechless, you didn't explain my completely random bridge hands.
And as I explained, abiogenesis is not speculated to have happened by chance. It will have happened by chemical eactions which would have always happened in the conditions that were available.
I'm not angry about it either. I never said I was.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I understand there are jerks amongst any belief group, but Christians believe in the Bible, and the Bible considers it to be wrong to be judgemental. Where I come from is a small town, everybody there is a pronounced Christian, but yet could write for a New York City tabloid.
The argument I'm trying to make is, if Christians believe in the Bible and what it says, why are they so judgemental when the Bible considers it to be wrong?
Do you seriously think we didn't understand what you were talking about, because after that it seems you were just waiting for someone to agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by otto186
I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not, all I'm doing is stating my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Sweet :DQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
Just because some one thinks christians are hypocrites doesn't mean they can't or don't believe in god! I do but he dose say in the bible that the wolves live among the sheep, so I find it easier to believe on my own instead of part of an organized religion that care more about "being right" than actually being right!
I'm not talking about it being logical to cut out God to explain sentient beings. (Don't take that as meaning I think that we need God to explain sentient beings). I'm talking about it being logical to cut out God to explain where the energy came from at the big Bang. These are separate issues.
You need to understand the bridge analogy for me to get any further with you. Humans do not have an innate understanding of statistics. In statistics, we expect the unexpected to happen. If the expected happened all the time, there would be no need for statistics, because every time you rolled a die, it would always land on the same number. That isn't the world we live in.
Just because you do not know how life evolved from molecules doesn't mean that it's impossible. The odds are low of getting a specific hand in bridge, too, but if you deal enough times, you will get it. The cards to determine if life will form have been dealt many many times since the beginning of the universe. However, It's generally thought that life had a high chance of forming, and probably formed many times before it finally thrived.
I never said that Christians don't believe in God.Quote:
Originally Posted by workcherrie
I do agree with this 100%Quote:
so I find it easier to believe on my own instead of part of an organized religion that care more about "being right" than actually being right!
I think people created odds to deal with the fact that they don't know what is happening in there lives and can not predict there future happenings... just an opinion
So you think that when you flip a coin? God decides whether it lands on heads or tails? You believe in fate?
You are going to find those hypocrites in any religion, Christian or not. So instead of attacking the whole, why not just target the ones you actually know and ask them what their problem is? Just as you do not like to be covered in a blanket statement, I am sure someone else does not like that either.
I beleave that no one really knows and that you can beleave and it is great to beleave... no mater what its in but no one can say for sure and I like christions and I like most any and all religions I think that religion is a beautiful thing, it is just not for me.
Your viewpoint is very interesting :)
Haha yeah life dose that to you lol
I don't believe they are separate issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
What? I thought we were talking odds, not statistics.Quote:
You need to understand the bridge analogy for me to get any further with you. Humans do not have an innate understanding of statistics. In statistics, we expect the unexpected to happen. If the expected happened all the time, there would be no need for statistics, because every time you rolled a die, it would always land on the same number. That isn't the world we live in.
I never said it was impossible, I said from the beginning we don't know. But, it brings me back again to... what are the odds? At this point that's the only question I'd like to have answered.Quote:
Just because you do not know how life evolved from molecules doesn't mean that it's impossible. The odds are low of getting a specific hand in bridge, too, but if you deal enough times, you will get it. The cards to determine if life will form have been dealt many many times since the beginning of the universe. However, It's generally thought that life had a high chance of forming, and probably formed many times before it finally thrived.
Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Here is data I found in reference to your probability question:
Excerpt
The simplest conceivable form of life should have at
least 600 different protein molecules. The mathematical probability that
*just one* molecule could form by chance arrangement of the proper
sequence of amino acids is far less than 1 in 10^450. (The magnitude of
the number 10^450 can be appreciated by realizing that the visible
unuverse is about 10^28 inches in diameter). Ref2
³Even if we take the simplest large protein molecule that can reproduce
itself if immersed in a bath of nutrients, the odds against this
developing by chance range from one in 10^450 (engineer Marcel Goulay in
*Analytical Chemistry*) to one in 10^600 (Frank Salisbury in *American
Biology Teacher*).² ref 3
Beware of tricky atheist - sci.skeptic | Google Groups
A Mathematical Proof
of Intelligent Design In Nature
- by R. Totten - (c)1999
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyK....roofcreat.html
These other two sources also provide much food for thought:
Abiogenesis -- Whence Came Life?
Scientific Evidence that God Created Life
By your own statement you are against God. This places you in opposition to his people who are not judgemental but following God's requirements. You don't like this because it is like holding up a mirror to you and you don't like what you see. Get used to it
Statistics is the study of odds. I didn't know that you didn't understand this. I apologise. Let me put it this way: so far, for all the stages of life-from-molecules that have been studied, the probability is effectively 1.
Starman's calculations are based on many false premises. THey are not scientific. I do not give much credit to them at all.
Capuchin, I don't mean to be difficult but it seems you're avoiding the specifics of the question, which is what are the odds that the right chemical reactions and the right conditions would occur to organize these molecules and eventually become a human? I'm willing to bet it's enormously greater than bridge combinations or landing a golf ball on a particular blade of grass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
I can't say one way or another - which is why I was asking you.Quote:
Starman's calculations are based on many false premises. THey are not scientific. I do not give much credit to them at all.
This just in:
Pope: Creation vs. evolution an ‘absurdity’ - Focus on the Vatican - MSNBC.com
"Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith."
"They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such."
I've made this point several times. Please listen. Abiogenesis is determined by biochemical laws that we are still studying. Odds are meaningless. Biochemistry is not random.
I like how he states there is a difference between evolution and faith (cal, if you're listening :))Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Agree Capuchin:
To an unbeliever , Christianity is not "provable" and requires faith.
To me, a Christian and scientifically trained, evolution is NOT "provable" as the explanation for life and therefore believing evolution as such also takes "faith."
Grace and Peace
So by that logic, the pope believes that evolution is provable and is an unbeliever in Christianity?
Suddenly odds are meaningless? Was man predestined to exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
Guys, Guys! Science and religion actually complament each other. I'm a baptist. I beilive that god created all things and that he designed all life to adept to its surrondings, which are ever changing. Look up: divine design. Furthermore science says that all the living matter and non-living matter in the universe is made of recycled star gases. "And God formed man the dust of the earth, breathing into his nostrils the breath of life."-- Genesis. God means for all of us to live in harmony, I know its hard, I'm nowere near perfect neither of us is. We all have sins, Lord knows I done the same thing I'm preaching against. We have have not the power to change hearts only god does, so pray for a person that does not know god, talk to them but in gental manner don't try not to get puffed with how much you know, because in god's eyes we know next to nothing.
Back to the original post, here is some interesting information.
"Every single study that has ever looked at the issue has revealed massive amounts of bigotry and prejudice against atheists in America. The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It's not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear.
The most recent study was conducted by the University of Minnesota, which found that atheists ranked lower than "Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry." The results from two of the most important questions were:
This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...
Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%
I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....
Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3% "
And with America being 75% Christian, where do you think the majority of these feelings come from?
Article from:
University of Minnesota Study on American Attitudes Towards Atheists & Atheism - Research Finds that Atheists Most Despised, Most Distrusted Minority
Don't get confused folks, that paragraph is purely the opinion of the author, Austin Cline. He has deduced an awful lot of hate, bigotry and prejudice from two questions. It is impossible to determine that from those questions. Who among you doesn't believe certain groups don't share your vision for America? Ask that first question of Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, socialists and capitalists. Who isn't concerned about who their kids marry?Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleysb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
From the same article the op linked to:
He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”
I think it is logically to believe that natural selection can over time change the shape and length of a bird's beak, but the THEORY of evolution does not explain how life or the universe began.
As to whether the Pope believe's in God and Jesus Christ, which I believe he does, you would have to ask him.
Grace and Peace
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