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Would you rather the devil and his angels be in Heaven being given the privilege of enjoying themselves torturing helpless human souls? I see hell as the eternal separation from God. Heaven is the place for those who desire God. There must be a place then for those who do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
The Bible simply tells us that the penalty for sin is death. If it had been eternal torture Adam would have been told so that he could make an informed decision. Adam knew what God meant by death because God made it clear that it meant turning into inanimate matter again. Any other elaborations are the idea's of men and only serve to make God look evil by keeping creatures alive just so that they can suffer pointlessly since no one benefits from it except maybe a sadistic onlooker.
This is a good argument and I have heard this argument before. I like to look at salvation history from the whole of Gods word. Jesus spoke about life after death. Does this mean that humans have no soul? That the human soul does not live on after the body dies?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Hell exists because Satan and his angels rebelled against God. They “forced” his hand so to speak. They could not remain in Heaven, for it is no place for evil. God prepared a place for them. This is a place which consists in the deprivation of the glory of God. I do not see this as an act of a God who is a monster, but of a God who is just. God does not wish that any be lost. So, he humbled himself, became man, suffered and died. To me this is an act of a loving God. Not of a God that is criminally insane. Christ clearly spoke of the after life and of those who will be heaven and those who will not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
The one who claimed that man wouldn't die and that God was lying when he said that
man would die and become like dust was Satan. The word translated as soul is nephesh and nephesh never refers to an immortal spirit. That's why we read about souls being killed by the edge of the sword, souls having blood, souls feeling hunger, souls being destroyed. The word nephesh is also used in reference to future or present life. These meanings can be easily verified via a Hebrew Lexicon so there is actually no real excuse for not knowing their true meaning.
The Bible Meaning of Soul
Immortal Soul Absurdities
Then we have Gehenna, which is merely an incinerator outside the walls of Jerusalem,
the Hebrew word sheol which refers to the common grave of mankind, and the Greek tartarus which refers to a prison-like restricted condition where fallen angels who rebelled in Noah's day are in. The problem is that all are translated as hell regardless of their true meaning and in that fashion contribute to the attack on God's righteous personality. It's also a subtle repetition of the first satanic lie that if we sin we don't die.
Our Immortal Soul
Here is what the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1971 vol 11 p. 276. Says about the word sheol which is so often irresponsibly translated as hell.
"Sheol" is a place where the state of the dead reside knowing neither pain or pleasure, neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked. The good and the bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and Gentiles all sleep together without awareness of one another.
BTW
No one can force God's hand to do evil and torture of sentient creatures is evil and incompatible with a God of love.
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
The use of nonbiblical books to support the Bible is an accepted practice.
History books which verify biblical historical accuracy, archelogical books inform us about discoveries which show that the Bible is trustworthy, medical books which show us that the Hebrews were divinely guided in relation to health practices, astronomy books which tell us that the Bible indeed spoke true when it described the earth as spherical and seemingly hanging from nothing, concordances to help us see the inner harmony in the inspired scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, Greek and Hebrew Lexicons which allow us to check the original meaning of words in order to make sure that they have been translated correctly.
As for what I am "trying" to say, it's written in clear English.
You disagree? OK, that is your right.
Just a reminder to all and to our new members for sure,
This is a Christianity section, under Religion but please remember there are many many denominations within Christianity and the teachings of heaven and hell. So remember we are not here to tell another member that their view point is wrong, it is merely to give our view points, or to discuss the view point of the other.
As for as other books, all christian denominations in there seminary use other books to educate their ministers and help explain the various books, often passage by passage. Just as a good bible scholar would never start their study without a greek and hewbrew dictionary, and none will try and study without research in the customs of the people during various years to fully understand what the means of the various bible stories and the such.
While the points don't really count please consider not using the "disagree" just because one denominations teachings does not meet yours. To their church they are not wrong,
You can merely post another replay saying why you think your answer is best.
Why I reject the eternal torture doctrine.
No sugar coating intended--just common sense.
Any interpretation of biblical texts that maligns God's holy character by describing him as capable of injustice is by default unacceptable. Neither are the scriptures always to be translated literally especially in a book like Revelation uses symolic language. Otherwise we'd have to believe that the stars literally fall from the sky, that a real wild beast arises from the sea, that the earth has four corners, that the sea will literally turn to blood, that the woman Called Babylon the Great is a literal woman who rides a reall seven headed animal while she's literally drunk, that a literal city with its upper levels reaching two hundred miles into outer space will descend and that we will all have to live in it. That Jesus is a literal lamb, has a literal wife and that this wife has stars on her head, that a literal dragon arises from a literal sea, that Jesus has a literal sword sticking out of his mouth and uses it to strike the nations and so on. Revelations is a book written in symbols and we are told that it is in its introduction.
Fallacious Reasoning:
First, human beings have rights by virtue of being human. We don't lose our human rights simply because a more powerful being has intentions of depriving us of these rights. One of these rights is that humans should never be subjected to cruel punishment. That's in the Constitution the United States, a Constitution which is praised and imitated by other countries who also value human rights. In short, to agree with the interpretation given above I would have to view God as a violator of human rights. I find that unacceptable and a clear indicator that the interpretation of the above verses in a literally is not the right way.
There is also crass rhetorical inconsistency here because the same people who would praise this type of evil tongue in cheek if their god does it are the same ones who would raise their voices in protest if torture is instituted as punishment in their respective countries. It seems to me as if fear of being tortured forces believers in eternal torture to approve of something they would otherwise condemn. Actually, if I believed such a thing I'd be pretty scared to speak out myself. So it's understandable.
I would agree that we can not take every part of the Bible literally. We must read it in it's full context.
Theology is an interesting study. Using human reason to understand the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient we will always come short in full understanding. There is suffering in this world now, but I do not believe God takes pleasure in that suffering. It is a result of sin from the beginning. Any thing that is short of the full glory of God will be suffering. I believe God is full of love in that he has provided a way to his full glory. We also have free will to choose that way. If there were no choice, we would not have free will. We would just be like programmed robots. God will pass judgment on me; I can not pass judgment on Him.
This is what I like about AMHD, a free exchange of ideas.
I am not passing judgment on God I am passing judgment on the eternal torture as
Punishment concept. Also, freedom of choice is not the issue here since I never denied that humans were given freedom to choose. As for not understanding God by using our God-given ability to reason, tell that to Thomas Aquinas who used reason in the service of faith. Also, lack of reasoning can lead us into accusing God of things he doesn't do since we are reading the Bible with our minds on hold, a perfect recipe for misunderstanding. This in turn can lead to people rolling on the floor making garbled sounds while claiming it to be holy spirit, people lashing themselves with whips in order to express repentance, to indiscriminately accepting any voice they imagine to hear as the voice of God and doing whatever it says even to the point of committing murder, the list is endless. All these have one thing in common, however, they malign God's character via misrepresentation just as Satan did in the Garden of Eden.
BTW
Actually, saying that God is incomprehensible is saying that he provided us with no means of getting to know him--another accusation against God's character that he doesn't deserve.
I actually agree with Aquinas. I should have worded that better. Insert: Totally and fully understand the mind of God.
Also, I do not believe God is incomprehensible. We can Know Him through what He has revealed to us through his creation and word, But we can not understand Him totally and fully until we are face to face (so to speak) in heaven.
Quote: people rolling on the floor making garbled sounds while claiming it to be holy spirit,
Starman
Sir, are you attempting to malign us Pentecostals?
If that is your intention I'm going to have to tell you that I resemble that! LOL
Blessings,
Chaplain John
No condemnation of you as an individual or your relationship with the creator was intended. That's for God who knows each person's heart to decide. So if I came across as judging Pentecostals individually in their relationship to God I apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaplain john
"Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men” (II Chronicles 6:30).
I totally agree that that God does not toture forever and ever in a mean and adistic way. In fact , God’s own inspired Word says the following regarding people who at one time sacrificed their children in burning flames to false gods: “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (Jer. 7:31) Indeed, God says such a thing “had not come up into [his] heart.” Should he then be accused of tormenting people forever?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
God’s Word shows that death (nonexistence), not eternal torment, is the penalty for sin. “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezek. 18:4) The Bible clearly says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . For there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” “Authorized Version”; “hell,” Catholic “Douay” version], the place to which you are going.” (Eccl. 9:5, 10) The Bible also encourages us to have “hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Acts 24:15.
Since God does not change, we can find comfort in knowing that he never will do some of the terrible things that man has imagined in their minds. God does not torture us. He gives us life and he can take back that life. Before we are born, we are not existent and if we are judged wicked by God and not deserving of life, we become non existent again. (Malachi 3:6) What a pleasure it is to be led by such an understanding Shepherd, one who does not keep people alive to burn in a man made place of torture.
Take care,
Hope12:)
Here's a wealth of information on this subject:
Hell: Eternal Torment or Annihilation
I know you asked about the Bible..Quote:
Originally Posted by rr man
But as everyone seems to be joining in to explain their view,
Here's what Islam/muslims believe of Hell.
------------------------------------------------------------
Descriptions of Hell in Islam
The Creation of Hell-Fire
"Fear the fire, which is prepared for the disbelievers."
[Ali'-Imran, 3: 131]
"Truly Hell is lying in wait- a destination for the transgressors."
[an-Naba, 78: 21-22]
(One's rejection of faith is transgression against Allah and himself).
Abdullah bin Umar (radiAllahu anhu) narrated: “Allah Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,
'When someone dies, he is shown his destination morning and evening and if he belongs to the people of Paradise, (he will be shown his place) among the people of Paradise, and if he is from the people of Hell, (he will be shown his place) among the people of Hell.'”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“There was a dispute between Hell and Paradise during which Hell said, 'The haughty and the proud will find abode in me.' And Paradise said, 'The meek and the humble will find their abode in me.' Thereupon, Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, (addressing Hell) said, 'You are the means of My punishment by which I punish those of My servants whom I wish.' (and addressing Paradise), He said, 'You are My mercy by means of which I will show mercy to those whom I wish. And each one of you will be full.'”
[Muslim]
[B]The Gates of Hell
“The unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowds until, when they arrive there, its gates will be opened.. ” [az-Zumar, 39: 71]
“And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all. It has seven gates: to each of those gates is a specific class of sinners assigned.”
[al Hijr, 15: 43-44]
“To them will be said, 'Enter you the gates of Hell to dwell therein. And how evil is this abode of the arrogant.'”
[az Zumar, 39: 72]
“But those who reject Our signs are the companions of the left hand – on them will be fire vaulted over.”
[al Balad, 90: 19-20]
In Arabic, the phrase “on them will be fire vaulted over” indicates that the gates of Hell be closed. In other words, the fire will encompass the companions of the Fire, and the gates of Hell will imprison them within. As well, the gates of Hell will be locked, vaulted all around, and outstretched columns will cover the doors.
“It is the fire of Allah, kindled to a blaze, which mounts right to the hearts. It will be a vault over them in outstretched columns.”
[al Humazah, 104: 6-9]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated that Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
'When the month of Ramadan begins and the gates of Heaven are opened, the gates of Hell are closed, and the devils are chained.”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
Levels of Hell
“To all are degrees or ranks according to their deeds.”
[an-An'am, 6: 132]
“Is the man who follows the good pleasure of Allah like the one who draws upon himself the wrath of Allah and whose abode is in Hell – an evil refuge? They are varying grades in the sight of Allah, and Allah sees well all that they do.”
[ali'-Imran, 3: 162-163]
“Indeed the hypocrites are in the lowest depths of the Fire; you will find no helper for them.”
[an Nisa, 4: 145]
Capacity and Depth of Hell
On the Day of Judgment the inhabitants of Hell will see their destined abode face to face and will realize the error of their ways. But, of course, it will be too late. The Qur'an states: “No! When the earth is pounded to powder, and your Lord comes with His angels, rank upon rank, and Hell, that Day, is brought [face to face] – on that Day will man remember? But how will that remembrance profit him?”
[al Fajr, 89: 21-23]
“On the Day We will say to Hellfire, 'have you been filled?' it will say, 'Are there some more?'”
[Qaf, 50: 30]
Ibn Mas'ud (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Hell will be brought on that Day. IT will have seventy thousand reins with seventy thousand angels drawing it by each rein.”
[Muslim]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“And his (the disbeliever's) seat in Hellfire is as much as (the distance) between Makkah and Madinah.”
[at-Tirmidhi and al-Hakim]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported: “While we were in the company of Allah's Messenger (SAW), we heard a terrible sound. Thereupon, Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said, 'Do you know what that sound is?' When we answered, 'Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said. “That is a stone which was thrown into Hell seventy years ago and has been constantly falling until now when it finally reached the bottom.'”
[Muslim]
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Hell and Paradise fell into a dispute during which Hell said, 'I have been distinguished by the proud and the haughty.' And Paradise said, 'What is the matter with me that only the meek and the humble and the downtrodden and the simple enter me?'
Thereupon, Allah said to Paradise, 'You are the means of My mercy whereby I show mercy to those of My servants whom I wish.' Then HE said to Hell, 'You are the means of punishment whereby I punish those of My servants whom I wish. Both of you will be full.' Hell will not be filled up until Allah puts His foot over it. Then Hell will say, 'Enough, enough, enough,' at which point it will be filled up, all of its parts integrated together.”
[Muslim]
Anas bin Malik (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Hell will continue to ask, 'Is there anything more?' until Allah, the Exalted, and High will place His foot thereon, Then it will say, 'Enough, enough, by Your honor,' and some of its parts will draw close together.'”
[Muslim]
The Fuel of Hell-Fire
People:
“Those who has disbelieved – their wealth and their children will never benefit them anything with Allah. And those are the ones who are the fuel of Hellfire.”
[ali'-Imran, 3: 10]
Jinn:
“And there are among us Muslims (in submission to Allah) and others who deviate from justice. And whoever accepts Islam has sought out the right path. As for those who deviate, they will be firewood for the Hellfire.”
[al-Jinn, 72: 14-15]
Stones:
“But if you cannot – and of a surety you cannot – then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject faith.”
[al Baqarah, 2: 24]
“O you who believe, save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones, over which are appointed angels, stern and severe, who do not disobey Allah in what He orders them and who do precisely what they are commanded.”
[al-Tahreem, 66: 6]
False Gods
“Verily, you (unbelievers) and what you worship besides Allah are fuel for Hellfire, You will surely come to it. If those had (truly) been gods, they would not have come to it. But all will abide therein eternally.”
[al-Anbiya, 21: 98-99]
“And the Fierce Fire will be brought out before those straying in evil, and it will be said to them, 'Where are those you worshipped besides Allah? Can they help you or help themselves?' Then they will be thrown into it (the Hellfire) on their faces – they and those straying in evil and the soldiers of Iblees, all together.”
[ash Shu'ara, 26: 91-95]
The Intensity of its Fire
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated: “When Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,
'Your ordinary fire is one of the 70 potions of the Hellfire,' someone commented, 'O Messenger of Allah, would it (ordinary fire) not be sufficient (to burn the wrongdoers)?' At that, Allah's Messenger (SAW) said, 'The Hellfire has 69 more portions than ordinary (worldly) fire, and all of them are as hot as this (worldly fire).'”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]
“Verily, Allah has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire. Dwelling therein forever, and they will find no protector or helper.”
[al-Ahzab, 33: 64-65]
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:) :)
Your definition of hell would depend on the beliefs of the religion to which you subscribe, if any. It is my belief that hell is not some fiery <a href="http://www.supernovamfg.com">incinerator</a> in which you are placed for eternity. Rather, it is a place of personal anguish. This suffering is derived from your poor choices here on earth. You will be separated from God and your family, never being allowed to have familial relationships ever again. And you will always know that you could have chosen differently, but did not. You could have achieved what your loved ones had, but instead, through your actions in this life, chose to become separated from them in the next.
I totally agree with Hope12's post of 01Jun2007. And I would like to add a word about correctly interpreting the parable of "The Rich Man And Lazarus" found in the New Testament. Christ spoke in parables, and without a parable He did not speak. Sometimes the difficulty lies in determining which statements of God are plain, and which statements are symbolic. The parable I've mentioned states that the rich man "died and was buried." And "in hell he lifted up his eyes..." That last phrase about lifting his eyes should immediately give us a BIG clue that what follows is parabolic. Because it is physically not possible to be dead and to "lift up ones eyes" to see. In any case let's continue to ask for wisdom when trying to understand Holy Scriptures. And let's especially apply the rule of "comparing spiritual (things) with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13)
Headstrong,
I disagree with you... Christ spoke in parables but he didn't ALWAYS speak in parables.
Also, he spoke about hell more than he did about heaven. And your issue with lifting his eyes is not valid. This guy could see! Did he have his body.. no he didn't but he could communicate and see and feel. If you think it was just some parable... then lets refer to the OT. You seem to like the OT really good. When the witch of Endor brought Samuel back from the dead... samuel spoke.. now how could he have without a mouth? Samuel was none to pleased because he was diquieted... now how could this be? Comparing SCRIPTURE with SCRIPTURE... the bible says there is a hell, a lake of fire and heaven. They are as real as this earth. It isn't some spirtual hocus pocus.
Quoting classy T:
....Christ spoke in parables but he didn't ALWAYS speak in parables.
I agree that Christ didn't ALWAYS speak in parables. But my point is that every word of the Old Testament is also the words of Christ. Remember Christ is God. And Moses leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt and into Canaan, the promised land, is a historical parable. Egypt representing the kingdom of Satan, Moses representing Christ, the people of Israel representing those who will become saved, and Canaan representing the kingdom of Heaven. And throughout the whole Bible God uses other incidents as parables to HIDE spiritual meaning. Often the problem is recognizing those passages that contain hidden spiritual meaning.
The spirit entity that the witch of Endor saw and spoke with could NOT have been Samuel. The souls of the saved are secure in heaven with Christ until the Day of the Rapture. They are NOT free to be summoned back to Earth whenever some psychic feels the urge. Remember that the witch was a servant of Satan, and the spirits she was able to conjure up were fallen angels who also serve only their master. Their master is the Father of Lies and his servants work at DECEIVING everyone who listens to them. And God permitted all this deception to be recorded in the Bible for His own purposes.
The subjects of Hell and The Lake of Fire are very important. And they are not as simple and "cut and dried" as we may prefer. Since we have translations into English, the original word is often not immediately available to us. To correctly "divide the word of truth" we must CAREFULLY look at the original language AND the context. Not an easy job. But it is do-able if we humbly follow the rules that God lays out in the Bible. If you would like to discuss this further, I am ready for you. Anytime.
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