Ask Me Help Desk - No Resurrection, No Faith?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And that's a concern of mine. What about all those people who never heard of Jesus? Are they saved?

My answer is yes.

Dwashbur has answered the question in post#9. For those who rejected Jesus, he says, "Those who reject Jesus as God, I don't know. Can you receive his salvation and new life without that specific idea? I think so, because the earliest believers hadn't fully sussed out all the implications of that idea yet."

For those who never heard of Jesus, he says, " As for those who haven't heard and who lived before Jesus, as I've said before: Idunno. I figure God does."

I don't want to steal DW's thunder, but I do want to make one clarification of my own.

When I say "reject Jesus as God", I'm not especially referring to those who crucified Jesus in the Gospels. I'm thinking more along the lines of the billions who DID know about Jesus but rejected the idea that he is God. That would include Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christian religions. They far outnumber Christians who believe Jesus is God.

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The good news is not a message of “Do your best and be good enough!” but rather “Your best is never enough—but Jesus is.

Alistair Begg

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Originally Posted by Athos

I'm thinking more along the lines of the billions who DID know about Jesus but rejected the idea that he is God. That would include Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christian religions. They far outnumber Christians who believe Jesus is God.

If you are born into and grow up in a Muslim (or Jewish or other non-Christian religion) family/culture, when believing in Jesus as your Savior is not in that frame of reference, would God reject you, damn you?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If you are born into and grow up in a Muslim (or Jewish or other non-Christian religion) family/culture, when believing in Jesus as your Savior is not in that frame of reference, would God reject you, damn you?

Not in a million years, no matter what the Bible may be mistranslated as.

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Athos
Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
And that's a concern of mine. What about all those people who never heard of Jesus? Are they saved?
My answer is yes.

Dwashbur has answered the question in post#9. For those who rejected Jesus, he says, "Those who reject Jesus as God, I don't know. Can you receive his salvation and new life without that specific idea? I think so, because the earliest believers hadn't fully sussed out all the implications of that idea yet."

For those who never heard of Jesus, he says, " As for those who haven't heard and who lived before Jesus, as I've said before: Idunno. I figure God does."

I'm pretty sure we've been over that question before. Romans 1 suggests that if one responds to the amount of light/information one has, God is merciful.

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Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
I'm thinking more along the lines of the billions who DID know about Jesus but rejected the idea that he is God. That would include Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christian religions. They far outnumber Christians who believe Jesus is God.
If you are born into and grow up in a Muslim (or Jewish or other non-Christian religion) family/culture, when believing in Jesus as your Savior is not in that frame of reference, would God reject you, damn you?

Same answer.

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When I say "reject Jesus as God", I'm not especially referring to those who crucified Jesus in the Gospels. I'm thinking more along the lines of the billions who DID know about Jesus but rejected the idea that he is God. That would include Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christian religions. They far outnumber Christians who believe Jesus is God.

That's a somewhat stickier situation. Islam does acknowledge the importance of Jesus. The Jewish question depends on whether you're dispensational or not, which I'm not. Paul said that Jesus broke down the dividing wall between Jew and gentile and that's good enough for me. People are people. He died and rose for all of us, whether our name is Washburn or Frumplemeyer. That's the thing that bothers me when we get to talking about groups like this, because God deals with individual hearts. The person raised on ancestor worship who questions it and says there should be something bigger than the ancestors, is just as likely reconciled to God as I am through Jesus. The difference I see is in life right now. The abundant life that I have in Jesus is something that has to be experienced to be understood. There's no way to describe it adequately. I want everybody to have it, it's that great.
Jesus has given me the assurance of eternal life, whatever that may turn out to look like. He has also given me the most incredible life I could ever imagine right here, right now, and for as long as I've been around.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

whether our name is Washburn or Frumplemeyer.

Hazel too??? Yay!

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That's the thing that bothers me when we get to talking about groups like this, because God deals with individual hearts.

Bingo!

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

That's a somewhat stickier situation. Islam does acknowledge the importance of Jesus. The Jewish question depends on whether you're dispensational

Not sure what you mean by "stickier situation". It is clear that Muslims and Jews do not accept Jesus as God.

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The abundant life that I have in Jesus is something that has to be experienced to be understood. There's no way to describe it adequately.

Your citing Jesus as a source of abundant life is fine. Can you accept that others may have just as abundant a life as you have by citing their beliefs which are not from Jesus?

None of this is in any way disputing your personal feelings about Jesus. I'm hoping you will expand a bit on the present topic of whether those who reject Jesus as God can be saved.

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Originally Posted by Athos

the present topic of whether those who reject Jesus as God can be saved.

What are reasons for rejecting Jesus as God, as their Savior?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What are reasons for rejecting Jesus as God, as their Savior?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Isn't it self-evident that a Muslim or Jew simply do not accept Jesus as their God?

And they don't accept Him because...

...because they don't believe Jesus is God.

I'm still not sure what you're asking. Why don't YOU think they don't accept Jesus as God?

They don't accept Him because He isn't part of that belief system. Just like I have never accepted Zeus or Ganesha.

My point: They haven't accepted Jesus but have they willfully REJECTED Him?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

They don't accept Him because He isn't part of that belief system. Just like I have never accepted Zeus or Ganesha.

My point: They haven't accepted Jesus but have they willfully REJECTED Him?

THANK YOU for the explanation!! Hmmm...they have willfully NOT ACCEPTED Jesus too! Both are willful.

Ok, so you're looking for the difference between not accepting and rejection? I don't think there is one. I think they are synonymous. Spelled differently, but essentially similar. Especially in the present case discussing being saved.

Jews and Muslims are generally familiar with the Christian belief of Jesus being God, but they themselves don't believe that Jesus is God. So I would say that they BOTH 1) do not accept Jesus as God and, 2) reject Jesus as God.

I hope that helps. That's the best I can do.

I haven't accepted Ganesha as a god, but no one has tried to teach me about him and what he could mean in my life. Thus, I haven't rejected him.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I haven't accepted Ganesha as a god, but no one has tried to teach me about him and what he could mean in my life. Thus, I haven't rejected him.

Ok, so in order to be rejected (or reject) one must learn about the god. It ain't necessarily so (old song from Porgy and Bess). As a Christian, I assume you believe in the First Commandment about not having false gods before you. Yet, you were never taught about those gods. You rejected them on .....well, faith. Moving right along..........

There are many ways to learn including being taught. I agree. You can also learn by reading and studying an issue. Then there's the learning simply by being in a society where the issue is prevalent. By osmosis as the saying goes. There are probably more ways, but let''s leave it at that for the moment.

I was never taught about Ganesha but I'm familiar with the Hindu god. I even have a small statue of he/she/it in my library. It sits next to a little Buddha which sits next to a little frog (not a god) that my niece gave me years ago which is next to a Byzantine icon of the Holy Trinity I received from a visit to a Russian monastery many years ago.

Lest you think this is some kind of altar, it's not. It's just a bunch of geegaws I acquired over the years and stuck on a shelf. I like the Buddha - he's fat, arms upraised and laughing. Ganesha is weird. Elephant trunk where a nose should be.

Back to business: I happen to know a a lot about Ganesha because of my reading. As for Ganesha being a god, I reject that outright. If you were to be taught about Ganesha's god-ness, you would reject it too. Trust me on that one. You might appreciate its symbolic associations, but a God? Nahhh. Rejection.

I hope this little excursion has satisfied your curiosity on why people can both reject gods AND not accept them.

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Originally Posted by Athos

As for Ganesha being a god, I reject that outright. If you were to be taught about Ganesha's god-ness, you would reject it too. Trust me on that one. You might appreciate its symbolic associations, but a God?

Hey!!! He's the God of Wisdom, New Beginnings, and Luck; the Remover of Obstacles, patron of the arts, especially writing -- and he loves samosas! My former coworker Shachi visited her family in India and brought back for me a little statue of Ganesha that snuggles with my hedgehog and two owls and Jawa in front of my pc monitor.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pw08g4Jmb...ng-ganesha.jpg

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Hey!!! He's the God of Wisdom, New Beginnings, and Luck; the Remover of Obstacles, patron of the arts, especially writing -- and he loves samosas!

My kind of God !!

No extra charge for this link which I forgot in my other post and that is very apropos for this discussion being very Biblical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLyFn_UHsZ8

I added more to my post.

So you see, Hindus might have a feast of Indian food including samosas (like a Lutheran church supper?) to interest and entice curious people who want to learn more about those beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I added more to my post.

So you see, Hindus might have a feast of Indian food including samosas (like a Lutheran church supper?) to interest and entice curious people who want to learn more about those beliefs.

I'm in. That's one sexy elephant. He/she/it knows it, too.

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Athos
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
That's a somewhat stickier situation. Islam does acknowledge the importance of Jesus. The Jewish question depends on whether you're dispensational
Not sure what you mean by "stickier situation". It is clear that Muslims and Jews do not accept Jesus as God.

Jews, definitely, though the existence of Jews For Jesus reinforces my point about God dealing with individual hearts.
I call it a stickier situation because Islamic teaching on Jesus is a tad inconsistent. It's hard to define just who he is in that system, and I haven't spent enough deep time in it to try and sort it out. I know one view says Jesus wasn't on the cross, Judas took his place, another says he really was the Son of God and savior, I've heard quite a gamut from Muslims and others. Again, I haven't really pursued it to any degree, so that's as much as I can tell you.

And it's just a personal preference, but IMO Ganesha could use a nose job! ;)