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I clearly can't articulate my understanding of John 3:16. Jesus never preached (Even though God loved the World) the love of God to unbelievers. Unbelievers can't know the love of God. Only unless you have experienced the love of God can you understand the love of God.
So if we could go another route maybe?
When did God love the world?Quote:
God so loved the world
It was clearly before He sent Christ. "God so loved the world THAT He gave His only..." In other words, the sending (giving) of Christ was the result of God loving the world. The love clearly came first. One way or the other, it was the WORLD that God loved.
How do you define "God's love"?
As a result of your post about the absence of God's love being referenced in Acts, I'm going to read the book carefully, especially the sermons, and see what common aspects they contain. That was an interesting little fact.
I've come to the conclusion that talking about the love of God to those who have not been redeemed is precisely an example of pearls to pigs and Jesus said if you do that they will turn and attack you and I've discovered that when you talk about the love of God to unbelievers they immediately do turn and rage and immediately come up with two very profound objections- first how can you then explain the suffering in this world and second how can you dare to believe in suffering in the next world these are the immediate reactions of unbelievers when you tell them God loves everybody.
Does the "so"- in "God so loved the world" really mean "soooo"?
How do you define God's love?
As to talking to other people, I am convinced that of every 25 people you talk to about Christ, two or three are really listening. The rest are not at that place yet and might never be. Most of the time we are sowing seeds. Some of the time we are harvesting. Perhaps sometimes we are hoeing. You can really see that in Acts 17. "32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered (outright rejection), but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” (sowing seed) 33 At that, Paul left the Council. 34 Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed."(harvesting the crop)
It is interesting that when Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus, He did not tell him anything about love.
I do enjoy our discussions. You don't go down the silly roads others go down.
I believe it means...
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up.
I think instead of a Gospel of Love it was meant to be a Gospel of God's righteousness.
It became a Gospel of love about 100 years ago...With the Unconditional love thingy.
I will try to explain later. Got to go.
I would still like to hear your definition of God's love. Not an illustration, but a definition.
True in many ways.Quote:
I think instead of a Gospel of Love it was meant to be a Gospel of God's righteousness.
Giving me Freedom in Christ Jesus. Knowing God needs me...needs me to love.Quote:
definition of God's love
Well, that might explain the difference. I would say that God's love (agape) is doing what is in the best interest of the object of that love, even at a great cost to you. "Benevolence"
I believe the only way unbelievers are going to know God's love is by the Love of the Christians.
Talking about God's love, to unbelievers will only fall on deaf ears. Actions speak louder than words. God Demands that we Love, he gives us that love. You can try to explain God's love to an unbeliever, they will never understand and they will most likely use it against you. Repent and you will know of the love God has for you...otherwise your hosed. And we are to keep on repenting.
Don't you just love it when unbelievers talk as if you need to love them or all things as God loves...what do they know of God's love? OH! yeah, they know John 3:16, well that's all they need to know.
Exactly! Well said, waltero!Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Yes, he doesn't tell us (referring to unbelievers) that love...just as if I was to tell you or an unbeliever how much I love them, they would just blow it off or use it against me.Quote:
he gives us that love.
If a person wants to know how to become saved, John 3:16 (the Bible in a nutshell)will be in almost every book you choose, in searching out how to be saved. Come as you are...no need for repentance.
And such love, of course, would require telling people the truth of God’s word.
The word so does not mean so much, soo greatly or soooo deeply. In fact, the Greek word means (autos); Thus (in this way). Or, in this way. Or, in just the same way. "He did it so." He did it in this way. In fact, the literal meaning of the word is Thus. "For thus God loved the world." It's not a quantity word at all, it's a comparison word.Quote:
For God so loved the world.
Waiting on the correction. Do I have it right?
What is the point?
Isn’t the quality and quantity of God’s love indicated by the extravagance of His giving?
The point is; neither Jesus nor any of the apostles ever preached about the love of God in public. I could not find a single example of Jesus or the apostles ever preaching about the love of God to unbelievers.Quote:
What is the point?
"what about John 3:16?"
Should we be preaching "the Love of God"? If not, why are we???
Consider this, Walter. You said earlier, "Actions speak louder than words." Now when Jesus prayed for sinners on the cross by saying, "Father, forgive them," was that not love in action? When he fed the multitude TWICE, was that not love in action? When He healed many lost sinners and cast demons out of others, was that not love in action? When He took the sins of the whole world upon Him on the cross, people who were all lost sinners, was that not love in action? Now the word "love" was not in the text of any of those events, but didn't His, "actions speak louder than words?" And should we not tell sinners about that love that was demonstrated so clearly?
When we read this in Acts, do we not see the love of God clearly presented to sinners? Granted the word "love" is not in the text, but surely we can say that the concept of love is very much there.
"37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!”
What am I missing? Actions speak louder than words. Was Jesus/Apostles ever just sitting around (Like the Church) talking (to unbelievers) about the love of God??? - (adlib) That'll get them, they are sure to understand something that is so profound as "the love of God," when I simply speak the "love of God" to them (unbelievers), they'll get it for sure! Yes, he was at times sitting (action no action) down talking about the love of God, but only when he was surrounded by believers. It is only when you experience "the love of God" that you are able to understand "the love of God." Why bother talking about rebuilding an engine unless the useless person you are talking to desires to become a mechanic (or at least wishing to work an engine himself)? You can talk till your blue in the face, they will not grasp an understanding of what it is you're talking about...they simply don't care to hear it...just fix it...John 3:16 is not a fix, although some use it as if it is.Quote:
Consider this, Walter. You said earlier, "Actions speak louder than words." Now when Jesus prayed for sinners on the cross by saying, "Father, forgive them," was that not love in action? When he fed the multitude TWICE, was that not love in action? When He healed many lost sinners and cast demons out of others, was that not love in action? When He took the sins of the whole world upon Him on the cross, people who were all lost sinners, was that not love in action?
That's why John 3:16 isn't directed toward unbelievers. John 3:16 is talking to believers, aka the Church...John (the book of John), stresses for them to continue believing, from the start of the book to the end of the last page.
Side note: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat" -and- "But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. Why did Jesus pray for Simon? Why would he not pray for Judas?? What do you think would have happened if he had prayed for Judas???
So when it says that God loved "the world", you understand "the world" to mean believers? And when Romans 5 says God expressed His love by having Christ die for "sinners", you understand "sinners" to mean believers? Don't you think that's a little wild? It would seem you are forcing your beliefs into unrealistic views of scriptures, scriptures which have plain and obvious meanings. If actions really do speak louder than words, then the NT is shouting that God loves sinners. In fact Jesus said He did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. What great love for sinners that represents!Quote:
That's why John 3:16 isn't directed toward unbelievers. John 3:16 is talking to believers, aka the Church...John (the book of John), stresses for them to continue believing, from the start of the book to the end of the last page.
I think you are mistaken by insisting on seeing the word "love" being used without being willing to look for acts of love which, you said, speak louder than words anyway.
Another text to consider. In Galatians 2:20 we read, "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." When did Christ love Paul and give Himself up for him, after Paul became a believer, or when he was yet a sinner? The same idea is found in Ephesians. " just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma." Notice that "loved" is past tense. So He loved them and gave Himself up for them while they were yet sinners, which agrees completely with the Romans 5 passage.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Are you saying that God does not love sinners, or are you saying that He does love sinners, but we should not tell them that?
Speaking as someone with two advanced degrees in the biblical languages, you are full of something, but it ain't the Holy Spirit.
I gave you both the lexical definition and the contextual definition as set out in both Testaments.
You are quibbling over the fact that none of them used the word "unconditional." You're playing word games, nothing more.
I won't play. This is a ridiculous game that is getting nowhere. All you're proving is that you need to go learn Greek.
I frankly find this offensive to my life's work. You're trivializing one of the most important ideas in the Bible.
Just stop it. You have no clue what you're talking about.
1 Tim 2:1-2Quote:
Might be, but it's not the lexicon definition, and that's the one that counts. Both of the ones I have say, "love, affection, or benevolence". No mention of unconditional.
Dictionary.com says this. "the love of God or Christ for humankind.the love of Christians for other persons, corresponding to the love of God for humankind, unselfish love of one person for another without sexual implications; brotherly love."
Again, no mention of unconditional.
Mirriam Webster also made no mention of the love being "unconditional". Kind of strange considering that it, " Always has been."
Various translations of the word "agape" or its verb form.
I want to hear you explain how "all people" doesn't really mean "all people." I want your explanation for how "wants ALL to come to [Jesus] doesn't really mean everybody.
I'll wait.
I don't know where you got this?Quote:
So when it says that God loved "the world", you understand "the world" to mean believers?
I'm still trying to figure it out myself. I guess what I am more less saying is: "the love of God" is a person, in a person...it is not a thing.
If you are using John 3:16 as "unconditional love" and presenting John 3:16 as a go-to guide when somebody is wanting to learn (seeking) how to become saved...It is not "the love of God" we should be preaching to unbelievers. Yet it is always the first thing unbelievers will turn to (That's all we - as Christians - got)...It implies - no need for repentance. When you already have the (unconditional) love of God, you will not come to him with a repentant heart.
And for those of you who believe "all will be saved!"
Hell is insufficient in bringing a person into "The love of God." Even if they (as you say) have to spend some time in Hell. I remember reading (on this site) "so you Sin for 40-80 years and you have to spend eternity in hell, pfft." Uh, yeah, It's not the length of your Sin that matters, it's the height of your Sin.
I understand John 3:16 as being "SO"- (John 3:15) like the snake in the wilderness...as So, just like.
All you need is to Look at the Cross, just look!
God Loved (at one time) the world. You can't understand John 3:16 unless you look at the verse before it and the verse after it. That's what I mean when I said; "people have stopped searching the scriptures."...because now (Chapter and verse) you can just look it up!
I would like to research this further. I am off to work now, won't be online for a few weeks.
Until next time.
Empty "self" and enter into the body of Christ Jesus...life's work is all that is needed.Quote:
I frankly find this offensive to my life's work
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