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Religion and politics - so much fun forever and a day. I happen to like a good argument, J-9. (Not at the dinner table, of course)
I stay out of religious argument because I'm not religious, and IMO, too much of it smacks of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
But this is interesting!
About? Ummm if you are asking about ClassyT's question, I answered what I believe above!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes you did! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
You're right. You did. It was so long ago, I had forgotten. :-) Sorry, Precious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Precious7
I like good arguments too. Especially religious ones when some are so sure of what's what - often based on 2,500 year old writings. I wonder why they seem unable to see the illogic of what they promote. I have no argument for Scripture being sacred, but not in the same way they tend to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by joypulv
Sacred are the Beatitudes, and such. Wondergirl wrote (paraphrased) Love God and love your neighbor. I think that pretty much sums it up. Even Jesus summed it up in that way when he was asked.
You're fine, it happens. No worries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So you're saying that sitting around waiting for this blessed hope is more important than living out Jesus' words in the Beatitudes? I might have some difficulty with that idea.
Yes, That is what Titus 2:13 says. But it also says the two are the same event, there's no separation between them like dispensationalists try to invent.
As for your question about who goes into the Millennium, many of us don't buy a literal millennium. And considering that it's only mentioned once, in Revelation 20, and pretty much everything in Revelation is symbolic of something else, it's doubtful there's anything literal about that statement. So for those of us who read Revelation the way it's supposed to be read, the "millennium" is a non-issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Well you would have difficulty because you do not believe in dispensations. Jesus spoke that to the Jews and it was for the Kingdom which the disciples thought was about to take place and it hasn't even today! It will though. So while the sermon on the mount is beautiful and written for me to learn, it wasn't written TO me. For instance, when the Lord says to forgive or you won't be forgiven by your Father in heaven. Do you believe that is for you? Do you believe when you struggle to forgive someone that you are no longer forgiven by the Father? If so, you believe in losing your salvation based on works. Also do you love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself? If not, you are not saved. Listen... John says THIS IS LOVE... not that WE loved God.. ( what? But we have to love him with our everything according to Jesus) but that HE loved us and gave His son to be a propitiation for our sins. We love HIM because he first loved us. He stretched out his arms at the cross and died for us. When he gave the sermon on the mount he was putting the Law in its proper place. He also knew no one could do it... not until he died and gave them the power to. That's my take. And if I fail to forgive, I'm still forgiven. My love for my Father sadly is up and down. My love for him is not what I focus on, it is HIS LOVE for me that is constant. I'm not looking at me, I'm looking at Christ and just for the record... FOR CHRIST. Even so come Lord Jesus!Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
What do you mean you don't buy the Millennium? So you don't think there is a time coming when Jesus Christ will rule and reign on this earth for 1000 years? HUH? WHAT? Surely I am misunderstanding you. PLEASE say I am misunderstanding.
It's pretty simple, really. That whole business is symbolic, like the rest of the book. So many errors have been pushed by taking that book literally it's almost ridiculous. A literal millennium is one of them. No, I do not buy a literal 1000 year thingy. What kind of years? 365 day solar years? Do they include leap years? Is it exactly 1000 years to the day, or does it maybe fudge by a day or two?
The whole thing stems from reading basic Greek apocalyptic literature WRONG. That's what it boils down to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Plenty of Christians who can read and understand Greek do believe in dispensations. So what is it you see happening? I know you don't believe anything in the near future but what is the next event. Do you believe in the second coming?
Of course. What will it look like? Don't know, don't care. I read the end of the book. We win. That's good enough for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
As for those "Christians who can read and understand Greek" who are dispensational, Greek isn't the issue. The issue is those phony theological systems that people overlay the Bible with and use to interpret it. That's the problem, they start with the dispensational stuff and read it into everything they read, whether in Greek, English, or Lower Slobbovian. That is exactly what I was talking about. When we throw out the theological monkey bars and let the text speak for itself, we get a very different picture. That's exactly why I rejected dispensationalism after following it for nearly 10 years.
Dave,
I honestly don't know how you can throw it out and have the bible not contradict itself. For instance, and we had this discussion on FB, when Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats. He tells them they can go enter into everlasting life because of what they did for him. Yet that isn't the gospel AT ALL. So how to you reconcile the two. Are we saved by grace? Or do we work for it? Is the work at the cross finished.. or do we STILL need to visit those in prison, give a drink of water to the thirsty, give food to the hungry in order to be saved. (of course we WANT to do those things under grace, that is not the issue) Do we HAVE to? Because if we do... it's no longer grace.
I'll butt in with this: We have been saved by grace, through faith, and not because of anything we've done. It's God's gift to us. Our good works are our thank you to Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
From http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html
In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.
However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24;Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34), long before they could ever do any good works!
The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian's life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).
The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God's people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God.
Agree with Wondergirl!
Work comes as a outcome of Grace, forgiveness, '' Those who are forgiven much, will Love more'' with the example of women with perfume. When we are being transformed glory to glory, in Christ's likeness, Displaying fruits of Holy Spirit, by showing our love as Christ said, love one another as I have loved you, if you love me you'll keep my commandments. SO, all the works, just to show God how much we respect and Love, even though we fail sometimes but not in order to get saved.
Well I agree with you both in that it is by Grace and grace ONLY... works will follow because that is what grace produces. But I disagree that the Lord is talking to the church when he is separating the sheep from the goats. I believe that once the church is raptured, the gospel of the Kingdom will be in place. It is the same thing John the baptized preached. Repent... the Kingdom of God is at hand... Jesus is coming to take his rightful place. It is NOT the same thing as the gospel of grace. The church will already be with Christ, already experience the Judgment seat and had the marriage supper of the lamb. These sheep and goat that Jesus is separating are those that are on earth when Christ returns. Plus there are plenty of people who call on the name of the Lord who do not have time to do "works", they either die ( death bed confessions like the thief), or they are ignorant of grace and understanding all that is involved and really because they do not understand the love OF the Father, they live almost as bad as the world. Yes. I believe that heaven is full of people who did NOTHING we would consider as good on this earth and simply believed that Jesus died for them. I know, I know... that's pure heresy! But I believe it. Want to know what the will of the Father is? Not doing good, not being good, not helping the poor... it is to believe on HIS SON!
That isn't to say, I believe you should live like the devil after salvation, because if one REALLY understand Grace, they won't want to! The problem is...the church today, the pulpit today, don't preach Jesus. We are changed by beholding Jesus the bible says. The pulpits preach us to be self focused. What have you done recently? Do you struggle with bitterness? Can you take lemons and make lemonade? This type of preaching in MY opinion is nothing more than trying to fix the old nature, which has to die, it cannot be cleaned up, fixed up or polished. It has to die. We are NOT changed by realizing how miserable we have failed. We are CHANGED by beholding Jesus, his GRACE, what it really means, what really took place at the cross. Now let me tell ya, THAT is some GOOD NEWS! That is life changing news! sorry for the rant...I'm struggling to find a church who can preach grace without trying to balance it with the Law. Where sin abounds ...grace MUCH more abounds. Churches are petrified if they preach THAT people will go crazy. Grace is the antidote for sin. God isn't imputing sin to us, so lets stop talking about it, focus on Christ and I promise sin will go bye bye. ( I know, I know but I am passionate about Grace and the more I understand it the passionate I get!)
Who are your "goats"?
I hope this doesn't come up twice. I don't know what happened to my first answer... I will try again. The goats are the people in Revelation who refused to repent, cursed God, followed the anti-Christ and or took the mark of the beast. The sheep would be all that survived without the mark and were waiting for the return of Christ after the 7 year trib. Moses and Elijah ( representing the law and the prophets) will be the two witnesses who the anti-Christ tries to kill and isn't successful until the Lord allows it. I am sure their will be plenty of people believing them during that time as well and the 144,000 Jewish remnant that the Lord protects while they evangelize and proclaim Christ's return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Heavenly days!Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Hell on earth! I feel like when I talk with people who believe Revelation is all over, that you or they think I am FOR the tribulation period. Just because I believe in a literal 7 year trib doesn't mean I relish in it. I hate the thought... it's HORRIFYING! I didn't write it, it isn't MY idea. I believe it's what the bible teaches. All the more reason to see people come the Jesus. I think it's coming and soon. No man knows the day or hour but we can know it's near.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Right -- the end of the world has been predicted since at least 66 A.D.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...alyptic_events
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