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Nothing in scripture even suggest that we are to follow a single denomination of organization. In fact quite the contrary:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
1 Cor 12:27-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV
Those who are saved are members individually of the body of Christ, not part of a manmade organization.
Exactly Tj3, the body of Christ. He is our Exemplar and what he did and what he instructed for us to do is all there in the scriptures. Manmade organisations whether they be formed yesterday or 3000 years ago have no place in God's acceptable worship. Those who wish to serve God acceptably will do so based entirely on the scriptures.
Deut 31:12 and Hebrews 10:24, 25 encourages us to gather together to spiritually upbuild one another, whether young or old so as to benefit from the regular spiritual food provided by the "faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus master (his father) appointed over all his domestics to keep giving them food at the proper time." (Matt 24:45). These domestics are separate from those who claim to be followers of Christ as he himself said in Matt 7:22, 23.
So although there are many who say they are christians, few will actually be saved. It requires us acting in harmony with the accurate knowledge found in the bible and as I said before, these requirements are clearly outlined for all of us, maybe some more than others? :D
Agree, because scripture is the flesh of Christ.. Christ is The WORD of God.. Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it is the revealed truth of Our Father in Heaven. If you believe in Christ, if you believe in the Holy Spirit, and if you believe in God's power of creation, then the reality of scripture is HIS labor of love for us, just as THE WORD tells us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
Agree, if we hold stedfast in Faith of Christ Jesus. We must "Trust in Christ", we must "Rest in full belief and faith in HIS worthyness". " To glory in God the Father", because we were set free from the bondage of sin, and able to repent upon the blood of Christ Jesus who paid the price for our forgiveness from sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
BUT, we can not build again in sin nor should we destroy what Christ brought us. We throught Faith are to be dead in Christ and not to abide in sin, but to abide in HIS righteousnesss. Christ is not the minister of sin! Do not be a transgressor to destroy what was built in forgiveness by our faith in Christ. (Gal 2:18) AND do not fall from grace and consent to the law of sin which is good as the schoolmaster.
(Romans 6:16)(Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace)
Should you doubt "Faith in Christ", then you eat of the body of Christ in sin unto damnation. (Romans 14:23)
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
GREEN Tag GREEN Tag GREEN TagQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. KJV
What exactly do you mean by this? Scripture doesn't mention light-bulbs. Is it impermissible to use electric light suring worship? Well, presumably not, so precisely what constraints to you take this to impose on the worship of God? It's not clear to me what the force of "based entirely on" really is. Perhaps you could expand a bit on what you have in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
Why do you say this? Do you find this claim in Scripture somewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Moparbyfar can speak for himself.. But if indeed we believe that scripture offers all that is acceptable to serve God then it is scripture that can answer the question, and yes it is found in scripture.
Scripture is the gospel of the Kingdom of God pledged in Christ Jesus. Christ is the Flesh of scripture that is written (The Word of God)sent by the grace of God according to HIS Will.
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Believe in Christ Jesus! The proclamation of the grace of God manifest and pledged in Christ is the gospel.
Mark 1:1-2 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
2 Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
We must remember the gospel is glorified in Christ Name according to the grace of God.
[QUOTE=Akoue Why do you say this? Do you find this claim in Scripture somewhere?[QUOTE]
2 Tim 3:16, 17 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man [or woman] of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work".
There were and have always been laws and principles to follow since Adam and Eve. They were not free to do and what they wished. They had to live within God's guidelines. When those guidelines were broken, their blessings from God was taken away and so were their lives. The same with Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Job, King David, Daniel, Jonah, even Jesus. They all worshipped God in a way that he approved, and although some strayed from the truth (eg King David), as long as they were truly repentant of their wrongdoing, they could find favour with God again.
God is the one who knows what's best for us, after all, HE CREATED US. So it makes sense that he is the one to look to for guidance, hence the importance of using his word the Bible as our "manual" for a happy, successful life.
Jesus set the best example because he based all his teachings on the Bible. He said in John 17:17 "Your word is truth" in prayer to his father. Everything he taught harmonised with the scriptures. The account of Satan tempting him in the book of Matthew proves just how closedly Jesus stuck to the scriptures by quoting them each time in answer to Satan's attempts. (Matt 4:1-11)
Jesus described in Matt 24:11 what we can expect as a sign of his presence, that "many false prophets would arise and mislead many" vs 14 "and this good news of the kingdom shall be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come."
What is that good news? Is it being preached by all Christians throughout the earth to all?
So I say this not because it is a claim but because it has been emphasised by so many throughout the bible as proof that there is indeed only ONE true religion, based entirely on the God's Word.
I notice that none of the Scriptures you quote state that the Gospel is identical to, or contained in its entirety within, the written text of the NT. The Gospel is the message, the good news, that Christ brought to God's people. I don't see anything that states that the whole of that message is contained in the pages of the Bible. But, of course, there are plenty of places in the NT where we are told to uphold and abide by oral teachings. This seems to suggest--in fact, it unambiguously affirms--that there are teachings that are precisely not to be found in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
In other words, then, I think you are quite mistaken to assert that "scripture offers all that is acceptable to serve God". In fact, this looks to me like a dangerous assumption that is gainsayed by Scripture itself.
[QUOTE=Moparbyfar;1780536]Your earlier statement that our worship of God should be "based entirely on Scripture" would seem to suggest that Scripture alone is entirely sufficient. But the passage you quote from 2Tim. Doesn't say that at all. It says that Scripture is inspired by God (everyone agrees with this), that it is beneficial for teaching, reproving, setting things straight, and for the purposes of discipline (no one disagrees with this either). It says that Scripture is beneficial for these purposes. It precisely does not say that Scripture alone is sufficient for these things. Now, perhaps I have misunderstood your earlier statement and you did not mean to suggest that Scripture alone is sufficient. If I have, I apologize. But, as I say, this is how I understood you, and if I have not misunderstood then I am afraid you are mistaken. Scripture does not say that Scripture alone is sufficient. On the contrary, it repeatedly states that we are to uphold and abide by oral teachings. This means, then, that we are to rely upon both Scripture and oral tradition and not one to the neglect of the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue Why do you say this? Do you find this claim in Scripture somewhere?[QUOTE
Yes, you are exactly right.Quote:
There were and have always been laws and principles to follow since Adam and Eve. They were not free to do and what they wished. They had to live within God's guidelines. When those guidelines were broken, their blessings from God was taken away and so were their lives. The same with Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Job, King David, Daniel, Jonah, even Jesus. They all worshipped God in a way that he approved, and although some strayed from the truth (eg King David), as long as they were truly repentant of their wrongdoing, they could find favour with God again.
We ought to rely upon the Bible, that is true, but not to the neglect of those teachings of Christ and the Apostles which were transmitted orally and were not included within the text of the NT as we have it.Quote:
God is the one who knows what's best for us, after all, HE CREATED US. So it makes sense that he is the one to look to for guidance, hence the importance of using his word the Bible as our "manual" for a happy, successful life.
I'm not comfortable with the idea that the Bible is a manual (or "manual") for happiness and success. This makes it sound a bit like a self-help book. Worldly happiness and success are by no means guaranteed. Our goal ought rather to be eternal life with our heavenly Father. Many have suffered mightily for the faith, after all.
While you are exactly right to point out the Jesus used the Bible as a pedagogical tool, I wouldn't say that he "based" his teachings on the Bible--which in his case was the OT. Jesus was God. He "based" his teachings on his eternal truth. Or, rather, his teachings were expressions of his eternal truth.Quote:
Jesus set the best example because he based all his teachings on the Bible. He said in John 17:17 "Your word is truth" in prayer to his father. Everything he taught harmonised with the scriptures. The account of Satan tempting him in the book of Matthew proves just how closedly Jesus stuck to the scriptures by quoting them each time in answer to Satan's attempts. (Matt 4:1-11)
Where is the end, then? There have been false prophets, many false prophets, since the age of the Apostles. The word has been disseminated. And still the end has not come. Why do you suppopse that is?Quote:
Jesus described in Matt 24:11 what we can expect as a sign of his presence, that "many false prophets would arise and mislead many" vs 14 "and this good news of the kingdom shall be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come."
Yes.Quote:
What is that good news? Is it being preached by all Christians throughout the earth to all?
So I say this not because it is a claim but because it has been emphasised by so many throughout the bible as proof that there is indeed only ONE true religion, based entirely on the God's Word.
I thank you for your thoughtful reply to my questions. It is a testament to the thoughtfulness of your post that points of agreement and disagreement have come clearly to light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
To the glory of God.. "The Gospel" the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom.
QUOTE by sndbay #26: Scripture is the gospel of the Kingdom of God pledged in Christ Jesus.
I don't acknowledge there being another Kingdom or any other power and dominion then Christ Jesus. That is clearly stated in (Eph 2:22) No other to give glory and honor to, then that which is written of in scripture which is the glad tidings of salvation through Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
From what is written that is the whole of everything contained in the Bible is The Word of Truth, and The Flesh of Christ is the excellence of the Kingdom of God.
The oral teaching written of in scripture were to establish Christ, and were told by those anointed by God. (2 Cr 1:22-23) They were sealed and given the spirit of God within their hearts. They themselves did not hold dominion over anyone but rather were sent to help others in Faith of Christ Jesus. (2 Cr 1:24)
Christ himself said I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6)
The Word of God known in scripture is sanctify as truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, (let him speak as) the oracles of God; if any man minister, (let him do it as) of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Interesting that you appear to be denying what Paul said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
2 Tim 3:13-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV
This does not say that we need something outside of scripture - it says that the gospel is found IN scripture, and that by scripture the man of God may be COMPLETE, THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY good work.
You appear to be saying that there is another gospel outside of scripture, or that we need part of the gospel which is not found in scripture, and that in and of itself is unscriptural.
Jesus' words were the source of doctrine for the apostles. That means that the entire Christian message is based on oral tradition. Additionally, the apostles used written revelations and doctrines found in the OT. As much as 90% of the NT is based on authoritative oral tradition (i.e. from Jesus to his disciples), and the remaining 10% is from written sources.
Paul was referring to the OT, specifically the Ten Commandments. Those were the only "Holy Scriptures" he knew about. The NT hadn't been written yet. In fact, his letters were the first writings of what later became the NT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The oral teaching which you are speaking of would be Christ Jesus who said himself that he manifested HIS Father's name unto the men which HIS Father gave HIM out of the world: Those souls were God's and God gave them to Jesus/flesh, Christ/anointed, begotten son of God. And those soul kept God's word/scripture (John 17:6)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
2 Cr 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Cr 1:24 ... Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
It says that Scripture is profitable for four things (doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in rigtheousness) and that these four things make "the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (Note: good work, not salvation).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So unless "profitable" is synonymous with "sufficient", this passage does not say that we don't need anything apart from Scripture. It also doesn't say that the whole of God's revelation is contained in Scripture. It says that Scripture is inspired by God. Notice that I have said nothing at odds with that: Yes, Scripture is inspired by God. Now where exactly does it say that all of God's revelation is contained in Scripture?
What I am saying is that there is nothing in Scripture that says that the whole of the Gospel is contained in Scripture. I am also saying that we should obey Scripture when it tells us to uphold and abide by oral teachings (teachings which, since they are oral, are not contained in the written text of the Bible).Quote:
You appear to be saying that there is another gospel outside of scripture, or that we need part of the gospel which is not found in scripture, and that in and of itself is unscriptural.
Oh, and I'm also saying that you have radically misunderstood 2Tim.3.13-17. I've explained your error above.
I'll also second Wondergirl's excellent point, that the Scriptures referred to at 2Tim.3 are those that belong to the OT not to the NT.
Interesting how you ignored part of the passage. I can only guess why, but here is the first part of the passage that you ignored:Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
"14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. "
Now that I have explained your error, perhaps you might want to read it once again in context.
How on earth does this pose problems for anything that I've said. No one has denied that value of Scripture, only its sufficiency. So yes, Scripture (the Scripture referred to here is the OT) "makes you wise for salvation". This doesn't say that the whole of God's revelation to his people is contained in Scripture. Since the Scripture it refers to is the OT, why don't you limit yourself to it? Why do you use the NT at all if you think that the whole of God's revelation to his people is contained in the OT? Do you think that "which are able to make you wise for salvation" means "contains the whole of God's revelation to his people"? If so, that would be an odd and surprising synomymy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Why don't you explain why you think that anything I have said is at odds with this.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there was no NT at this time. The Holy Scriptures Paul referred to could only have been the OT, the Law in particular, the knowledge of which and adherence to was bridged, Paul notes, by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (oral tradition alert!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Assuming that Paul referred solely to the OT would mean that we can find the gospel of Jesus entirely in the OT, and I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
But nonetheless, by saying that this ONLY refers to the OT appears to either deny the inspiration of the Bible by God, or God's omniscience, because if God did indeed inspire the Bible, then God knew what scriptures were being referred to, including those both written at that time, and those yet to be written.
Did Timothy go into a trance when he wrote that? That conclusion is a HUGE leap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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