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Originally Posted by galveston

You ask 2 questions. First, they suddenly stopped because Jesus went back to the Father. Second, you have to understand that when Jesus went back to the Father, He requested the Father to send the Holy Ghost to the believers. Now, when Jesus was present in the flesh, He could only be in one place at a time. Through the presence of the Holy Ghost in the believers, He can now be present any place there is a Spirit-filled believer. The Apostles and even the first deacons performed miracles, attesting to the fact that Jesus had "returned" via Sprit-filled men and women. Look at these verses:
I Jn 4:2-3
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
(KJV)
To my knowledge, the KJV is the only English translation that uses the words, "is come". This is a continual present tense, others using "has come", past tense. The point being, what Jesus did 2000 years ago (other than His sacrifice for our sins) is not as important to us today as what He is doing now. He lives through His Church today, and will do so until He comes back personally. So in a very real way, He does appear to believers today. If you doubt it, I can give referrals.

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Many of the post resurrection appearances were made after Jesus went back to the Father. This is evident from the texts I supplied previously.

I take your point about the Holy Spirit, but the provision of the Spirit to the Church did not prevent Jesus from appearing as recorded. In John cap 14, Jesus promises the faithful that not only he, Jesus, but also the Father would come and dwell with faithful disciples.

"Is come" is an archaism. It is not improper to render it as "has come" if the context warrants it. The AV term 'is come' is translated from the Greek erchomai, having the following possibilites:

1) to come

1a) of persons; to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving; to come i.e. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2) to come, metaphorically

2a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence; be established; become known; to come (fall) into or unto

3) to go, to follow one

We ought not to be too pedantic when referring to a translation, for every translation is an interpretation that depends on the understanding, and sometimes the theology, of the interpreter.

However, the fact of the Holy Spoirit coming after the ascension of Jesus is not in dispute. But we are then left with the fact that Jesus continued to make personal appearances to Paul, Peter, and John, and possibly to others.

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Originally Posted by Morganite

Many of the post resurrection appearances were made after Jesus went back to the Father. This is evident from the texts I supplied previously.

I take your point about the Holy Spirit, but the provision of the Spirit to the Church did not prevent Jesus from appearing as recorded. In John cap 14, Jesus promises the faithful that not only he, Jesus, but also the Father would come and dwell with faithful disciples.

"Is come" is an archaism. It is not improper to render it as "has come" if the context warrants it. The AV term 'is come' is translated from the Greek erchomai, having the following possibilites:

1) to come

1a) of persons; to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving; to come i.e. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2) to come, metaphorically

2a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence; be established; become known; to come (fall) into or unto

3) to go, to follow one

We ought not to be too pedantic when referring to a translation, for every translation is an interpretation that depends on the understanding, and sometimes the theology, of the interpreter.

However, the fact of the Holy Spoirit coming after the ascension of Jesus is not in dispute. But we are then left with the fact that Jesus continued to make personal appearances to Paul, Peter, and John, and possibly to others.

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OK. I see what you are saying. I believe that these occurrences you point out were in the form of visions, and there are those in recent times that have had similar experiences. Never had a vision myself, but have met those who have had a vision of Jesus. It may be as common as it was in Bibilical times, because not everyone then had such an experience.

Back to faith's original question. It presupposes a difference between Catholic belief and other Christian beliefs. From the perspective of a non-Catholic, I see several significant differences. Papal authority, the Mass, transubstantiation, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the immaculate conception, the assumption of Mary, prayers to Mary and other saints, absolution of sins by a priest, and the belief that belonging to the Catholic church or being baptised as an infant constitutes salvation. Now, don't get sore about what I said about Mary. I honor her for the righteous lady that she was.

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Originally Posted by galveston

Back to faith's original question. It presupposes a difference between Catholic belief and other Christian beliefs. From the perspective of a non-Catholic, I see several significant differences. Papal authority, the Mass, transubstantiation, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the immaculate conception, the assumption of Mary, prayers to Mary and other saints, absolution of sins by a priest, and the belief that belonging to the Catholic church or being baptised as an infant constitutes salvation. Now, don't get sore about what I said about Mary. I honor her for the righteous lady that she was.

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You don't believe in the immaculate conception? Hmm, I'm not a Catholic Christian but a Pentecostal Christian, and we believe the whole miracle & birth. You're sure about that?

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Originally Posted by Retrotia

You don't believe in the immaculate conception? Hmm, I'm not a Catholic Christian but a Pentecostal Christian, and we believe the whole miracle & birth. You're sure about that?

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I don't think you know that Catholic dogma says that MARY had an immaculate comception. According to them, Mary was born withhout an original sinful nature.

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Originally Posted by freakingkansas

Since I used to be Catholic and now turned to a Christian i know about both religion something.

1.) In the catholic belief you talk through the church leader(Pope,Priest,...) to God and Jesus
While Christians think you can talk straight to God!

Thats i think one reason why the pope exist! If you think of the pharaos!
They thought that people have to pray to him that they can contact their God.
Thats one reason why i changed my religious way!

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Wrong on both counts.

Catholics are Christian & Catholics can talk directly to God.

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Originally Posted by galveston

I don't think you know that Catholic dogma says that MARY had an immaculate comception. According to them, Mary was born withhout an original sinful nature.

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It would be clearer if espressed as "Mary was also conceived immaculately, so that she was born without the taint of original sin."

As it stands, it appears that you are saying that Jesus was not born without sin, which is not what you intend, I am sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freakingkansas

Since I used to be Catholic and now turned to a Christian i know about both religion something.

1.) In the catholic belief you talk through the church leader(Pope,Priest,...) to God and Jesus
While Christians think you can talk straight to God!

Thats i think one reason why the pope exist! If you think of the pharaos!
They thought that people have to pray to him that they can contact their God.
Thats one reason why i changed my religious way!

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Come off it. Where did you find this mega bit of false information? If you ever were a Cathiolic, you will know that you were also a Christian. And not only were you a Christian as a Catholic, but superlatively a Christian. If you were not, then you were not a Catholic.

Find me a Catholic who prays to the Pope and who is not insane and I'll stand you a chicken dinner! I never heard such nonsense even from dedicated Catholic haters.

It is a wise person who does not believe anything that comes from the pea-sized bigoted brain of Jack Chick.

M:(RGANITE

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Originally Posted by galveston

OK. I see what you are saying. I believe that these occurances you point out were in the form of visions, and there are those in recent times that have had similar experiences. Never had a vision myself, but have met those who have had a vision of Jesus. It may be as common as it was in Bibilical times, because not everyone then had such an experience.

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A 'vision' is something or someone that is seen. It is not deception, but a real actual person. Jesus was not a phantom after his resurrection, but a real, actual, three-dimensional person who actually existed, occupied space, etc.


Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:40


This was the resurrected Jesus, not a ggost or spirit or an amorphous mass, and when he appeared to the Eleven they r4ciognised him but thougght he was nothing but a spirit. Jesus contradicted their erroneous belief and proved that he was a real, actual, physical presence, although resurrected and glorified and raised immortal.

It was this resurrected Jesus that appeared to paul, Peter, and John as their records and testimonies show beyond any scintillae of doubt.

Revelation 1.10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 1:11
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:12
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 1:13
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 1:14
14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;

Revelation 1:15
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Revelation 1:16
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 1:17
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 1:18
18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 1:19
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

This was not an imaginary 'vision' or a dream, but an actual 'vision' or 'sight' of the presence of the real living resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, whose permanent reality should never be doubted.

Likewise the appearances of the risen Lord to others were just as real as that to John and that to the Eleven. The resurrection of Jesus is not an imaginary happening and ought not to be 'spiritualised' into a legendary or fictitious event. Either the resurrection of Jesus was a real event following which he was a real person with a real presence or else the whole resurrection story is a fake and an imposition foisted on the gullible.

Paul said:

" ... like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6.4


1 Corinthians 15:12
12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Where is room for doubt. Why then do some still doubt the reality of the resurrection and the reality of the post resurrection experiences?



M:)RGANITE

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Originally Posted by Morganite

A 'vision' is something or someone that is seen. It is not deception, but a real actual person. Jesus was not a phantom after his resurrection, but a real, actual, three-dimensional person who actually existed, occupied space, etc.


Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:40


This was the resurrected Jesus, not a ggost or spirit or an amorphous mass, and when he appeared to the Eleven they r4ciognised him but thougght he was nothing but a spirit. Jesus contradicted their erroneous belief and proved that he was a real, actual, physical presence, although resurrected and glorified and raised immortal.

It was this resurrected Jesus that appeared to paul, Peter, and John as their records and testimonies show beyond any scintillae of doubt.

Revelation 1.10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 1:11
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:12
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 1:13
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 1:14
14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;

Revelation 1:15
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Revelation 1:16
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 1:17
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 1:18
18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 1:19
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

This was not an imaginary 'vision' or a dream, but an actual 'vision' or 'sight' of the presence of the real living resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, whose permanent reality should never be doubted.

Likewise the appearances of the risen Lord to others were just as real as that to John and that to the Eleven. The resurrection of Jesus is not an imaginary happening and ought not to be 'spiritualised' into a legendary or fictitious event. Either the resurrection of Jesus was a real event following which he was a real person with a real presence or else the whole resurrection story is a fake and an imposition foisted on the gullible.

Paul said:

" ... like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6.4


1 Corinthians 15:12
12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Where is room for doubt. Why then do some still doubt the reality of the resurrection and the reality of the post resurrection experiences?



M:)RGANITE

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Well, I agree, but the appearances of Jesus to His disciples after His resurrection was BEFORE His ascention. Did I read you wrong? I thought you placed these appearances after the ascention. (Not talking about His appearance to John on Patmos, of course.)

Now, I'm a bit confused. (you probably think that's an understatement). I know that I have never heard of anyone praying to the Pope, and never said so, but don't Catholics pray to the various saints, especially Mary? If this is true, how do you square it with this?
1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

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Originally Posted by galveston

but don't Catholics pray to the various saints, especially Mary?

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There is no worship involved. It is asking for intercession, not unlike a person asking for another person to pray for him/her.

Here is an excellent article on the subject:
Praying to the Saints

And here is another article citing Biblical and early Christian references:
The Intercession of the Saints

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Originally Posted by RickJ

There is no worship involved. It is asking for intercession, not unlike a person asking for another person to pray for him/her.

Here is an excellent article on the subject:
Praying to the Saints

And here is another article citing Biblical and early Christian references:
The Intercession of the Saints

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I never said the saints were worshipped. I said they were appealed to as intercessors, and that is extra-biblical.

I wasn't implying you were, really :)

... just adding a reference on the biblical and historical end of it.

... now that I read back further, I see it wasn't the best place to put it :o :)

:p :p
Technical foul is correct... I fumble fingered the quote!

I'll fix it ;)


... done.

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Originally Posted by galveston

Well, I agree, but the appearances of Jesus to His disciples after His resurrection was BEFORE His ascention. Did I read you wrong? I thought you placed these appearances after the ascention. (Not talking about His appearance to John on Patmos, of course.)

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Some of his appearances were during what has been called his forty day ministry, which were prior to the ascension. Others were post-ascension. Regardless of the timing of these appearances, the fact that he did appear is significant for several reasons, but chief among which is his continuing witness to mankind that he lives, and because he lives so shall we.

I know this might be crossing into new territory so I do not anticipate an answer, but it is decidedly odd to me that Jesus appeared after his resurrection as a physical being, but I am expected to believe that he died again [or somehting like it] and thathem is now in heaven without his resurrected body.


M:)

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Originally Posted by Morganite

Some of his appearances were during what has been called his forty day ministry, which were prior to the ascension. Others were post-ascension. Regardless of the timing of these appearances, the fact that he did appear is significant for several reasons, but chief among which is his continuing witness to mankind that he lives, and because he lives so shall we.

I know this might be crossing into new territory so I do not anticipate an answer, but it is decidedly odd to me that Jesus appeared after his resurrection as a physical being, but I am expected to believe that he died again [or somehting like it] and thathem is now in heaven without his resurrected body.


M:)

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Is there anyone who believes that Jesus died again? I never heard of it. He took His resurrected body with Him when He ascended, of course.

I'm temporarily hung up on this prayer to the saints thing. First, as per a previous post, we only have authorization to pray to the Father (by the authority of Jesus). Secondly, if we are praying to DEAD saints (those no longer with us) could that be construed as communicating with the dead? That is specifically forbidden. Of course, I doubt the saints make any reply, so it may not be communication. If they did, you wouldn't be talking to a saint, but to an unclean spirit (demonic). Third, if there is no real communication with the departed saint, then you are talking into the air, wasting your breath at best, and possibly communicating with the dead at worst. We have access to our Heavenly Father so why bother with some middle man, so to speak?

We do not believe that members of the Body of Christ who die are no longer "with us". Of course they are not physically with us, but we do believe that the Communion of Saints is not broken by death. (for more on the Communion of Saints, a very ancient idea professed in the Apostles Creed, see here)

Why ask one of them instead of God directly?

We don't "skip" God at all. We just include those closest to him in those we ask to pray for us. I think it not odd to presume that the prayer of one very close to God is "more effective" than the prayer of one not so close to God.

To use extremes as an example: I'd ask my Pastor to pray for me before I ask a struggling Christian to pray for me.

I know that this does not address "can they hear us", but do you find the above at least reasonable?

Good solid Biblical advise, Brother. AMEN!