I really don't think a piece of paper should be the definition of marriage. Alty was right, Even when people do get married, they can fall out of love very quickly and divorce. Does that mean that their sex was a sin? If two people are wholly devoted to one another, God will recognized that as well. Sure sometimes people will "re writed the bible"
But guess what? Every denomination of christianity interprets the bible differently in one way or another, that may conflict with another way of believeing. Everyone re-writes the bible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

Too bad you are using a less reliable Bible, but fornication is certainly included under "sexual immorality".

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Ummm... less reliable Bible?
I'm choosing to ignore that statement. What exactly is a reliable version to you? Original Greek scrolls?

:confused:

Ashriel, the problem with organized religion is that everyone thinks their way is the only way.

You have to follow your own path. If that path includes the bible, then fine, you have to decide what it says, just like everyone else.

Everyone on this site, everyone you meet will tell you what they think they bible says.

This is the reason that I believe in God but don't follow the bible.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Ashriel, the problem with organized religion is that everyone thinks their way is the only way.

You have to follow your own path. If that path includes the bible, then fine, you have to decide what it says, just like everyone else.

Everyone on this site, everyone you meet will tell you what they think they bible says.

This is the reason that I believe in God but don't follow the bible.

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This sounds strange to me.

Quick! Tell me what you know about Yaweh or Jesus WITHOUT referencing the Bible. What other source do you have?

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Originally Posted by galveston

This sounds strange to me.

Quick! Tell me what you know about Yaweh or Jesus WITHOUT referencing the Bible. What other source do you have?

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What other source?

My beliefs, that's what.

I believe that God, along with science, created the earth, but after that he just sat back and watched.

He doesn't interfere with his creation. Why would he, he's God.

I've read the bible, I went to Catholic school for 10 years and that was enough to convince me that it's just a well written (although often contradictory) book written by men and what they believe.

The ten commandments, for instance, are a great reference, good rules to live by. Sadly, the majority of people break at least one if not more in their lifetime.

Heck, Christians break a commandment every time they go to church and worship in a building with statues of Jesus on the cross. Or do you not know that commandment?

Still confused? I'm a Deist.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

What other source?

My beliefs, that's what.

I believe that God, along with science, created the earth, but after that he just sat back and watched.

He doesn't interfere with his creation. Why would he, he's God.

I've read the bible, I went to Catholic school for 10 years and that was enough to convince me that it's just a well written (although often contradictory) book written by men and what they believe.

Give ma a scrap of evidence to prove this statement.

The ten commandments, for instance, are a great reference, good rules to live by. Sadly, the majority of people break at least one if not more in their lifetime.

Have you not read that our God forgives those who ask for forgiveness?

Heck, Christians break a commandment every time they go to church and worship in a building with statues of Jesus on the cross. Or do you not know that commandment?

Still confused? I'm a Deist.

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I'm not confused. You are.

You attended a Catholic school, read the Bible, etc, and you claim they did not influence your beliefs, or influence your thinking?

Without the Bible you would have no idea of what Yaweh or Jesus are like. You might be only dimly aware that there even IS any god of any kind.

You could, of course, look at the universe and realize that there had to be a creator though you would know nothing about His character.

As to your reference to statues, I am one of millions of Christians who do NOT worship in a building with statues, candles, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

I'm not confused. You are.

You attended a Catholic school, read the Bible, etc, and you claim they did not influence your beliefs, or influence your thinking?

Without the Bible you would have no idea of what Yaweh or Jesus are like. You might be only dimly aware that there even IS any god of any kind.

You could, of course, look at the universe and realize that there had to be a creator though you would know nothing about His character.

As to your reference to statues, I am one of millions of Christians who do NOT worship in a building with statues, candles, etc.

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The bible has nothing to do with my beliefs, believe what you want.

You're going off topic.

I will not discuss my beliefs with you, or why I believe what I do.

I have no desire to argue about who's right and who's wrong. Believe what you
Want, that's your right, as it is my right to believe what I choose.

This is the same old song and dance. We've been her before and gotten no where,
So why go there again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

I'm not confused. You are.

You attended a Catholic school, read the Bible, etc, and you claim they did not influence your beliefs, or influence your thinking?

Without the Bible you would have no idea of what Yaweh or Jesus are like. You might be only dimly aware that there even IS any god of any kind.

You could, of course, look at the universe and realize that there had to be a creator though you would know nothing about His character.

As to your reference to statues, I am one of millions of Christians who do NOT worship in a building with statues, candles, etc.

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It sound like he/she is a deist. What's so strange about that? The founding fathers of the US were mostly deists, which is one reason they were able to put together a fairly decent government. You don't need to believe in Yahweh or whatever you call it to believe in a god.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cadillac59

It sound like he/she is a deist. What's so strange about that? The founding fathers of the US were mostly deists, which is one reason they were able to put together a fairly decent government. You don't need to believe in Yahweh or whatever you call it to believe in a god.

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You keep making the false claim that the fathers of the US were mostly Deists.

I have posted more than once the religious affiliations of the founding fathers, and there were only two or three Deists among them. Get your facts straight.

Off topic, of course.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

You keep making the false claim that the fathers of the US were mostly Deists.

I have posted more than once the religious affiliations of the founding fathers, and there were only two or three Deists among them. Get your facts straight.

Off topic, of course.

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Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine were definitely not Christians. They were all too smart for that. Deists at best.

Ashriel my belief is that our bodies, our souls, our minds, and our spirits are the temple of God, regardless of human religious labels we may call ourselves in the end it is our beliefs and our dedication to God, as we still belong to Him and Him alone, as we were all created by Him. So who knows if there were actually scriptures that were also directed to men to also keep themselves pure. As it could have been written there long ago and no longer present since the bible has gone through numerous of changes, additions, alterations, and deletions, and continuously being rewritten throughout the centuries for various reasons.

Sex goes beyond the being physical, as it is also deeply spiritual, souful, and psychological. When two people choose to have sex, their spirits are now intertwined. The world will pressure you and say that it does not matter, but it does matter and it can also come with a cost for both man and woman as God will judge us equally as we all must follow the Ten Commandments and is considered a sin.

Most of the 8 bibles I have use the word fornication which is sex before marriage.
In the bible it says that fornication is immoral before God.
That is do believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashriel

Ummm...less reliable Bible?
I'm choosing to ignore that statement. What exactly is a reliable version to you?? Original Greek scrolls?

:confused:

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Why are you choosing to ignore that statement? Do you think that all translations of the Bible are equally valid? The fact that you are asking the question about sex before marriage not being in the Bible shows that version of the Bible that you use does NOT translate the original Greek word "porneia" to "fornication" - which predominantly means sex before marriage, but can include other forms of illicit sexual behaviour.

Instead it uses the term "sexual immorality". I personally think that this phrase is a bad choice for the translation as what is considered sexually immoral can vary greatly between individuals and societies and even changes with time. This leads to people like you thinking that it is OK to "throw out this theory" of premarial sex when it is strictly against God's plan for humankind.

We have the commandment of adultery, and if you review
(Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart)

The Word of God teaches us the laws of sin. Review this video:
The Way of the Master

The disciple Paul feared, lest by any means as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:3)


Have you been beguiled, would be the question to answer..

The word adultery IS found in most if not all majorly accepted version of the bible as sndbay pointed out.
That also includes the word fornication or fornicate.
The bible does say that sex before marriage is a sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

The word adultery IS found in most if not all majorly accepted version of the bible as sndbay pointed out.
That also includes the word fornication or fornicate.
The bible does say that sex before marriage is a sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Adultery is defined as being married, and having sex with someone other than your spouse. I'm not married and neither is my love, so we cannot be defined as adulterers.

So if I'm having sex with the man I'll be with forever, the first man I've ever had sex with, the person I am committed to for life, I find it hard to think that is wrong. And no, we aren't financially and economically recognized as legally married.

I totally believe sexual immorality is wrong. I believe adultery is wrong. I believe twisting the wonderful creation of sex to anything less than a celebration of love and intimacy is wrong.

There was a time a long time ago that I met up with random guys and went too far with them, almost to sex but not quite. That was incredibly wrong, disgusting, and immoral. That was taking sex and throwing it into the dirt, using it as something lustful and selfish.

I believe there is evidence that God views the sexual act itself as the marriage. When two people come together and have sex for the first time, with each other, they are married in the eyes of God. They have become one flesh.

In Biblical times, during Jewish wedding ceremonies, sex was marriage. All that needed to be worked out were the legal and financial consequences.

I have been praying and reading the Word and thinking about this a lot.
I know that I don't want to move in together with my love before we get married. Because I want that to be something special in our marriage. But then I think, perhaps sex should be something that is special in marriage as well? But what if we are already married in God's eyes because we have had sex?

I don't know, I'm mostly just really confused about this.
On the one hand, I can't feel bad about having sex with the love of my life, just because our situations don't allow for marriage right now.
On the other, I want to make our future marriage the best it can be, and perhaps waiting for the signing of the papers, making a marriage in the eyes of the government, would be best. Waiting until we have spoken those words of commitment, forever.

And, we have tried waiting, and it was incredibly difficult. Going from two people who give freely, 100% of themselves to each other, to holding back, is difficult.

Okay, question for the Christians on this board and no, I'm not trying to stir the poo, I seriously don't know and would like your views on this.

Back when the bible was written there were no legal documents to pronounce marriage, so what did a couple have to do to be considered married?

Was a ceremony performed, Were there witnesses? Was something signed, or did they just pronounce their intentions toward each other and that was that?

I think that this is something to keep in mind. After all, in today's world marriage is more of a legal thing, something people do in order to combine assets, raise children with the same last name, etc. etc. Many times religion doesn't even enter into it, so what about those people who aren't married before God but married in a courthouse? The definition of marriage is very important here.

So, what does the bible mean when it says no sex before marriage? What constitutes marriage?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Okay, question for the Christians on this board and no, I'm not trying to stir the poo, I seriously don't know and would like your views on this.

Back when the bible was written there were no legal documents to pronounce marriage, so what did a couple have to do to be considered married?

Was a ceremony performed, Were there witnesses? Was something signed, or did they just pronounce their intentions toward each other and that was that?

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Scripture has it written in Luke 2 that Caesar Augustus, enforced that all the world should be taxed. So man was registered according to their land, lineage, and family. This type of registering was held record to all families, and included the family plus birth of Christ Jesus.

Before the time frame of the NT, what is written of according to scripture is the laws of God. And a wife was betroth

The priesthood was known to the Levites, and all tribes were not to marry outside their own lineage. (However this was a problem, and was so called a curse for not doing the Will of God)

We can also read of weddings, and invitations to a wedding, that examples there was a gathered celebration, with witnesses ect..

I hope this will help in someway to answer the question in mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

I think that this is something to keep in mind. After all, in today's world marriage is more of a legal thing, something people do in order to combine assets, raise children with the same last name, etc. etc. Many times religion doesn't even enter into it, so what about those people who aren't married before God but married in a courthouse? The definition of marriage is very important here.

So, what does the bible mean when it says no sex before marriage? What constitutes marriage?

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I trust God would recognize a joining of two, as to lie with one another as the scripture does say. But it does say to build a house or live as one joined.

HOWEVER what constitutes sin or adultery? If you are seriously looking to the scripture and word of God then we have to reference: (Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashriel

I believe there is evidence that God views the sexual act itself as the marriage. When two people come together and have sex for the first time, with each other, they are married in the eyes of God. They have become one flesh.

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This is not true.

Deuteronomy 22:13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her,

Shows that a couple are considered married before they have sex with each other.

Also if what you assert was true, then fornication (sex before marriage) would not exist, but as shown in many of the previous responses, many translations of the Bible use the word fornication and describe God detesting it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashriel

I know that I don't want to move in together with my love before we get married. Because I want that to be something special in our marriage. But then I think, perhaps sex should be something that is special in marriage as well?? But what if we are already married in God's eyes because we have had sex?

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It appears that you place sharing a house together more highly than sharing yourself. Surely the most important and special thing that a husband and wife can give each other is each other in body, mind and spirit? There is no perhaps about it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashriel

On the one hand, I can't feel bad about having sex with the love of my life, just because our situations don't allow for marriage right now.
On the other, I want to make our future marriage the best it can be, and perhaps waiting for the signing of the papers, making a marriage in the eyes of the government, would be best. Waiting until we have spoken those words of commitment, forever.

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Why doesn't your situation allow for marriage right now?
And yes, speaking the words of commitment, publicly and in front of God is what constitutes a marriage, a covenant between two people.

Quote:

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(Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart)

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Then every man I know has committed adultery.

As for the rest, yes, that is what I was looking for. Does the courthouse marriage count though?