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Originally Posted by JoeT777

But, if we were to search Scripture further we’d see where statues were used by Moses. Oops again! We see in Exodus, 25 verses 18–20 “ Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.” God spoke to Moses and TOLD him to build the statues. Was Moses like our good Southern Baptist preacher, standing behind the tabernacle trying to get the Hebrews started on their journey or was he worshiping the cherubs? Maybe keeping heavenly visions of our hope is better than a fishy bumpersticker – you reckon?

JoeT

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Joe God told Moses to decorate the Arc of the Covenant, a place for God's habitation. It wasn't Moses idea and he did not tell Moses to duplicate it everywhere he went. So God did not sanction statues in the Church by decorating the Arc, it was a one off for God's pleasure.

As to bumper stickers they are someone trying to say something like identifying themselves with Christ, Just like a priest or a nun carries a crucifix, an outward sign and maybe an offensive one if your reaction is any indication. If you find that Southern Baptist offensive, maybe he finds your statues offensive

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Joe God told Moses to decorate the Ark of the Covenant, a place for God's habitation. It wasn't Moses idea and he did not tell Moses to duplicate it everywhere he went. So God did not sanction statues in the Church by decorating the Arc, it was a one off for God's pleasure.

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If as you say, Moses decorated the Ark – which is the residence of God - then Catholics decorate their Church is following good precedence. You see, in the Church is an equivalent to the tabernacle which is filled with the 'Real Presence of God'. So then, it would be wrong not to put statues?

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As to bumper stickers they are someone trying to say something like identifying themselves with Christ, Just like a priest or a nun carries a crucifix, an outward sign and maybe an offensive one if your reaction is any indication. If you find that Southern Baptist offensive, maybe he finds your statues offensive

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Crucifixes are carried to take them from place to place – not to be an outward sign.

It was never indicated that the bumper sticker was offensive – that was your take on my comment.

JoeT

JoeT777, my point was clearly stated through the whole thread. I said that the Catholics that I saw, they prayed in the name of the statue, virgin Mary for example, another would be 'notre dame de Lourdes' or 'notre dame de la paix' (I'm in more of a francophone country), etc.

I think that if the statues are mean for an 'artistic' purpose, then it's not idolatry. It becomes it when one considers that the statue (or other similar representation) is divine.

The thing about the car and the priest, I think that he may be putting his car in the hands of God, so that God protects him during his journeys by car, that is understandable, unless he said he worshipped his car.

Also, neither Moses nor David worshipped, nor loved, nor glorified these cherubims as far as I know. If they did really, then would you please say the verses?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

If as you say, Moses decorated the Ark – which is the residence of God - then Catholics decorate their Church is following good precedence. You see, in the Church is an equivalent to the tabernacle which is filled with the ‘Real Presence of God’. So then, it would be wrong not to put statues?


Crucifixes are carried to take them from place to place – not to be an outward sign.

It was never indicated that the bumper sticker was offensive – that was your take on my comment.

JoeT

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Joe God doesn't live in temples or houses made by men. When the curtain was torn in the Temple at Jesus death God departed from the temple. Now he resides in the temple of the body with each believer so he has no need of a decorated house, these places are for us not God.

The idea that the Church is equivalent of the tabernacle is a false teaching one of the many perpetuating the Old Testament ideas of religion, don't you know the meaning of Emmanuel "God with us"?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Joe God doesn't live in temples or houses made by men. When the curtain was torn in the Temple at Jesus death God departed from the temple. Now he resides in the temple of the body with each believer so he has no need of a decorated house, these places are for us not God.

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Where in the New Testament does it say that “God Departed?”

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The idea that the Church is equivalent of the tabernacle is a false teaching one of the many perpetuating the Old Testament ideas of religion, don't you know the meaning of Emmanuel "God with us"?

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How is that so? Yes Emmanuel is with us. But actually I was referring to Christ's promise to being with us; “And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Christ ascended to heaven yet he promised to be with us ALWAYS. This is why in Matthew we join with Christ in His' real presence', “Take ye and eat. This is my body… Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.” (Christ's 'real presence' among his faithful - Matt 26) John, in chapter 6, tells us Christ said, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.” The 'real presence of Christ'.

The place where the 'real presence' of Christ', the Eucharist, is reserved is called a tabernacle. It serves the same function as Moses' tabernacle, e.g. the residence of God. To stand before the Tabernacle is to stand before Christ; as promised ALWAYS with us.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Where in the New Testament does it say that “God Departed?”


How is that so? Yes Emmanuel is with us. But actually I was referring to Christ’s promise to being with us; “And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Christ ascended to heaven yet he promised to be with us ALWAYS. This is why in Matthew we join with Christ in His’ real presence’, “Take ye and eat. This is my body… Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.” (Christ’s ‘real presence’ among his faithful - Matt 26) John, in chapter 6, tells us Christ said, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.” The ‘real presence of Christ’.

The place where the ‘real presence’ of Christ’, the Eucharist, is reserved is called a tabernacle. It serves the same function as Moses’ tabernacle, e.g. the residence of God. To stand before the Tabernacle is to stand before Christ; as promised ALWAYS with us.

JoeT

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Traditions of men, Joe, Christ didn't say anything about the eucharist, he said take and eat, not reserve, or preserve. Just man trying to put God back in the Box again.. Christ in us the hope of glory, not Christ in a box

paraclete,
The Catholic Church did not throw away a Commandment.
Your opinion is very wrong.
Catholics do not worship statuues, only God.
Your dislike of the Catholic Church is showing just as it has on other boards over the years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,
The Catholic Church did not throw away a Commandment.
Your opinion is very wrong.
Catholics do not worship statuues, only God.
Your dislike of the Catholic Church is showing just as it has on other boards over the years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Hi Fred

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

Is this familiar to you Fred

Suggest you have a look at this comparison and tell me where did the commandment go?http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...sm/command.htm

The reality Fred is what I am about is truth, as to worship you should examine what constitutes worship but I would have thought praying to a saint in front of a statue wold constitute worship

As far as Catholics are concerned, fine, disciplined people but their hierarchy has a lot to answer for. Open your eyes Fred

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Hi Fred

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

Is this familiar to you Fred

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And I'll add this is also in Deut 5: 8, 9 :)

I hope I'm not offending anybody. I'm just pointing out that I know (and have seen) catholics that did worship a statue. I want to know whether that is the same in other countries too.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

traditions of men, Joe, Christ didn't say anything about the eucharist, he said take and eat, not reserve, or preserve. Just man trying to put God back in the Box again.. Christ in us the hope of glory, not Christ in a box

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How then do you explain John 6:37-68. So, we attribute this to the tradition of God and are to immediately relegate it the world of “profiting nothing?” Is it really all that hard a thing? It was for some in Christ's time, I guess real truth can be a hard in our time?

JoeT

paraclete,
Yes I am familiar with that passage, but it DOES NOT apply to what The Church believes of does.
My eyes were open many years ago when I started studying The Church and later left Protestantism to become a member of The Church for I DID find there the truth and not hate and bigotry as I formerly had been exposed to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,
Yes I am familiar with that passage, but it DOES NOT apply to what The Church believes of does.

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You see Fred, I don't know of any instance where Scriputure doesn't apply to what the Church believes, but apparently you do.
So I have to ask;
What Gospel do they preach where you live?
Did Jesus die to redeem us?
Perhaps someoneelse is capable of saving us?

paraclete,
To answer your questions...
The Catholic Church teaches the gospels found in the Holy Bible that The Church originally put together as inspired by the Holy Spirit and provided same for the world.
Jesus was born, lived, taught by word and deed, died and rose from the dead to save us.
We are saved by the grace of the triune God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[QUOTE=paraclete;1947511 I would have thought praying to a saint in front of a statue wold constitute worship[/QUOTE]

Then you would be wrong. This is the problem with coming off half-cocked without having educated oneself about the matter: One tends to fall prey to all sorts of shallow mistakes because one hasn't taken the time to inform oneself.

Christians have always distinguished between worship and veneration. Worship (proskunesis, in Greek) is reserved for God alone. Catholics don't worship saints; Catholics venerate saints. Veneration is, in fact, a very good thing. Catholics worship only the Holy Trinity.

The corpus on a crucifix is there as a bulwark against docetism--that heretical view which holds that Christ wasn't really fully human. It is there to remind us that Christ really did become human and really did suffer and die for us. An empty cross--a cross without a corpus or figure of Christ--doesn't signify anything uniquely Christian since many thousands of people were crucified by the Romans. It isn't the cross that we worship, nor is it the cross that saves; it is the man-God upon the cross we wish to call to mind. Yes?

Statues and icons are placed in churches as a reminder that we are part of the communion of saints, participants in the divine liturgy alongside all those who have worshiped God and served him throughout the ages. These matters have been the subject of theological discussion since the very beginning of Christianity. Interestingly, the sort of iconoclasm you appear to advocate isn't itself Christian in origin: It has it's origins in Islam and was imported into certain strands of Christianity after the rise of Islam in the Middle East.

If you are unable to tell the difference between veneration and worship, then I suggest that the problem is yours, not Catholics'. Millions of Catholic and Orthodox Christians have had no trouble with it at all for two thousand years.

Akoue,
For about 30 years I did have trouble with worship vs veneration of statues. But when I started studying Catholicism it was one of the first things I learned to know the difference.
Then veneration of saints such as Mary, Peter, James and John rather than worship came next.
My road to Rome was rough and rocky at times, particularly from the fact that I was raised Luther in a very Lutheran family.
But I did find that the more I learned about the truth of Catholicism vs what I had been formerly taught was very must a marvelous spiritual journey.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue,
For about 30 years I did have trouble with worship vs veneration of statues. But when I started studying Catholicism it was one of the first things I learned to know the difference.
Then veneration of saints such as Mary, Peter, James and John rather than worship came next.
My road to Rome was rough and rocky at times, particularly from the fact that I was raised Luther in a very Lutheran family.
But I did find that the more I learned about the truth of Catholicism vs what I had been formerly taught was very must a marvelous spiritual journey.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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All roads to spiritual truth are rough and rocky at times. I'm glad you found the road that works for you. We're all seekers and, as the good book says, "...there are many mansions in my Father's house".

Fred:

I was raised Catholic and reintegrated, so to speak, in a fighting hole after a short falling-out; then I settled in the land of the Southern Baptist. To survive, I learned to rely on our 2,000 years of Catholic history for answers for the 'once saved always saved' crowd. This may be the reason for my 'in-your-face' manner.

I've been told by Protestant converts that the single most difficult hurdle is the adoration of Mary – I never understood why. Since you're a convert, can you shed any light? These same converts also tell me that statues and the Crucifixes seem 'different' but easily understood. Consequently, the objection over the veneration of statues by non-Catholics seems to be simple demagoguery. More to the point, the argument seems to be used to validate pigeonholing Catholics as pagans or some 'sub-Christian' group, not sophisticated. Do you get the same impressions? Your insight would be valued and appreciated.

JoeT

JoeT,
Yes I do get the same impressions from some.
I did not have much trouble with the veneration of Mary once I understood the communion of saints and veneration of our saintly brothers and sisters who have gone before us.
One of my digest hurdles to get over was brothers and sisters of Jesus and that Mary was NOT ever virgin.
For a long time. Even after I became a Catholic I had the attitude that if He did have them as blood siblings it made no difference to me; Jesus was still my Lord and savior.
I grew from that to accepting that maybe Joseph did have children by a former wife.
And I needed to grow in understanding from that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hmm, you gave some point there Akoue. Would you mind explaining further about veneration and worship? I mean, like showing how they really differ in the way they are carried out.

Thanks, the discussion is very interesting! :)

And to fall back, one also looks at the Orthodox Church, which I often do in questions like this. We know there was one basic church till the East and West separated @ 1000 AD. So by looking at the things the two churches share in common we see tradition and teachings that are not as much "church" but practice from this eariler time. The use of symbols and other icons are very common and one only has to enter a Orthodox Church to find that a Catholic church has very few compared to the Eastern practice.