Ask Me Help Desk - The Law or Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Joe what I acknowledge is that Christ fulfil baptism, And He fulfil the law.
Do we baptize today? YES
Do we acknowledge the law? YES
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Both were shown by Christ to be followed and done. One difference is the law did not justify us, so the better hope was Christ because faith in HIS body and blood does justify us. What was the ordinances of the law offered both gifts and sacrifices, that were done in a remembrance of sins every year by the priest.

However the ordinances of the altar were changed by the blood of Christ. ( refer: Eze 43:18) (refer: Col 2:14 ) Christ set us free from the curse, Christ washed us clean once and for all. Our souls are placed in HIS hands as Christ is the ONE LORD of (Eph 4:5) 1 Peter 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls

Christ changed the ordinances that were done because of the curse of Adam, and the conscience of evil
Hebrews 9:9-10 what was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Baptism fulfil by Christ, now is the removal of evil conscience. ONE BAPTISM of (Eph 4:5)
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

One Faith of (Eph 4:5) Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Romans 3:26-27 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Unless each individual holds stedfast ~in CHRIST by ONE LORD ONE BAPTISM ONE FAITH, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all ... Then each individual remains under the schoolmaster of the law of sin..

Right at the moment I can't show how each of your scriptural references are either taken out of context or wrongly interpreted but let me address Romans 3:31; maybe this willl help you see the point.

Without the Magisterium of the Church you've failed to see Paul's quintessential point. This verse proves that “THE LAW” continues and rightly resides in the heart, even more so than some of the verses I offered previously. Remember too not ONE jot shall pass till heaven and earth pass, (Matt 5:17)

St. Chrysostom seems shed the best light on Romans 3:31. The purpose of the law is to make man righteous. But, a law held externally, that is done simply out of rote, habit, or fear has no power to make man righteous. We can burn all the flesh in the land, wash our hands from minute to minute till they're raw, or burn incense until every man, women, and child has inflamed sinuses with little effect of making us holy. This was what Christ was telling the Pharisees, simply following one of these LAWS isn't redemption. However, faith can do just that, the law is the effect of faith. Once faith takes hold, it establishes the LAW; it establishes it in the heart. “Faith is not opposed to the Law,” rather the law is 'perfected'. What Christ said he came to do in Matthew.

… For here he shows that the faith, so far from doing any disparagement to the Law, even assists it, as it on the other hand paved the way for the faith. For as the Law itself before bore witness to it (for he says, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets), so here this establishes that, now that it is unnerved. And how did it establish? He would say. What was the object of the Law and what the scope of all its enactments? Why, to make man righteous. But this it had no power to do. For all, it says, have sinned: but faith when it came accomplished it. For when a man is once a believer, he is straightway justified. The intention then of the Law it did establish, and what all its enactments aim after, this has it brought to a consummation. Consequently it has not disannulled, but perfected it. Here then three points he has demonstrated; first, that without the Law it is possible to be justified; next, that this the Law could not effect; and, that faith is not opposed to the Law. For since the chief cause of perplexity to the Jews was this, that the faith seemed to be in opposition to it, he shows more than the Jew wishes, that so far from being contrary, it is even in close alliance and coöperation with it, which was what they especially longed to hear proved.( Source: CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 7 on Romans (Chrysostom))

But most injurious to scriptures is your conclusions that, ”Unless each individual holds stedfast ~in CHRIST by ONE LORD ONE BAPTISM ONE FAITH, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all... Then each individual remains under the schoolmaster of the law of sin.. ” Yes we believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, but to suggest that law is sin does Christ an injustice; because he came to fulfill (to make complete, or to perfect) the LAW. But, what you've said is that Christ perfects sin! Do away with THE LAW, and you've done away with Christ, his sacrifice, and our redemption through him. THE LAW looks to the authority of THE LAW GIVER, so too does our faith. Thus Paul rightly says, “Do we then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid! But we establish the law.”

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

but to suggest that law is sin does Christ an injustice; because he came to fulfill (to make complete, or to perfect) the LAW.

The result of my conclusions is written in the Word of God=Christ=Holy Spirit has refer:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So if one is a sinner, he has been told this by the law. If he continues to sin, the law continues to tell him this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

But, what you've said is that Christ perfects sin!

No I did not... I have said Christ washed us clean of sin. (Christ has begotten us again.. refer 1 Peter 1:3)

I am saying as scripture tells us the law of sin gives us knowledge of sin refer: Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The Schoolmaster... Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

When ~in Christ, Gal:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are ~in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Christ has made it possible for the law to fulfil our righteousness and to have Christ dwell within us.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

The result of my conclusions is written in the Word of God=Christ=Holy Spirit has refer:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So if one is a sinner, he has been told this by the law. If he continues to sin, the law continues to tell him this.

No I did not... I have said Christ washed us clean of sin. (Christ has begotten us again.. refer 1 Peter 1:3)

I am saying as scripture tells us the law of sin gives us knowledge of sin refer: Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The Schoolmaster... Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

When ~in Christ, Gal:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are ~in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Christ has made it possible for the law to fulfil our righteousness and to have Christ dwell within us.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So then when asked, as the OP asked, are we “no longer bound under the Law,” you would agree to the answer; we are still bound under the Law, as it were, bound with the chains of love for God?

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

So then when asked, as the OP asked, are we “no longer bound under the Law,” you would agree to the answer; we are still bound under the Law, as it were, with the chains of love for God?
JoeT

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Romans 6:9 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Joe, when is a woman no longer bound to her husband in marriage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:23-25 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ: that we might be justified by faith. But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.

Given the security of the commandments we were ‘kept’ under the Law. St. Chrysostom likens being kept as the walls of a fortress form the ‘KEEP’, keeping us comfortable to preserve the Jew for Faith. So, the law forms right reasoning as a tutor forms the mind of the student of physics. The physics teacher enumerates, laws from Newton, Copernicus, Einstein, etc. to students who are bound to their desks, they reside in the classroom as opposed to being in the word. But, now – on graduation day – we come to the realization that our faith is to be operated in the world. This doesn’t mean that the laws of Newton or Einstien no longer work – what goes up continues after gradation to come down (this is especially true of egos). Similarly, the student in Christ graduates receiving faith learns from the law to operate that faith in the real world . What goes up with faith comes down with salvation. Source: CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 3 on Galatians (Chrysostom)

Hey – it just occurred to me, since I’m gaining mass, maybe with the Protestant new physics, I can conclude I’m lighter!! Wow, taking your advice I can do away with those nasty diets and get lighter, you think?

St. Chrysostom renders the verse this way, “But now that faith has come which leads to perfect manhood we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Romans 6:9 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Being free of sin doesn’t mean we can be free of Divine LAW. An astronaut in space is free of gravity, but not the laws of gravity; he continues to orbit around a celestial body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And how does this affect THE LAW?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Joe, when is a woman no longer bound to her husband in marriage?

Until death. Or, when she says, ‘get out of my space’ or, ‘leave me alone’ or, 'mow the lawn'. Whichever causes your death first.

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Gal 3:23-25 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ: that we might be justified by faith. But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.

This scripture clearly establishes the Law in Christ or Law of Faith that comes by One LORD, ONE Faith, One Baptism
Gal 3:23-24-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. KJV

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

St. Chrysostom renders the verse this way, “But now that faith has come which leads to perfect manhood we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Scripture say we are born again incorruptible by the Word of God which is Christ refer:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We have by One Baptism, (which is done in confession of Faith) put on Christ refer:
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Being free of sin doesn't mean we can be free of Divine LAW. An astronaut in space is free of gravity, but not the laws of gravity; he continues to orbit around a celestial body.

Free of the curse of sin, wash clean of all sin, buried in Christ, and Christ will not dwell in sin. Refer: Romans 8:10 And "if "Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Until death.

Exactly bound until death.. Just like we are bound to the law of sin until we are baptized. Refer: Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Baptism is done once a person does confess faith in Jesus Christ Refer: (1 Peter 3:21)

One LORD, One FAITH, One BAPTISM.. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

~in Christ

*************

1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Gal 3:23-24-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. KJV

The Law Moses cannot save for all men sin and are incapable of being perfect in the law, “ but faith when it came accomplished it… The intention then of the Law it did establish, … it has not disannulled, but perfected it. Here then three points he has demonstrated; first, that without the Law it is possible to be justified; next, that this the Law could not effect; and, that faith is not opposed to the Law.”

One thing I’ve learned about Scriptures is that all scripture must be in harmony with itself and that Tradition must be in harmony with scripture and scripture must be in harmony with itself. That is to say is that God is not schizophrenic. He doesn’t tell you one thing and me something else.

Do away with the Law what do we do with the biblical Jew, the Jew in Israel – they are still around you know? Paul tells us about the glory of the sons of Abraham (the Jew). Absent the Law they become derelict and God becomes a deserter? So, “Who are Israelites: to whom belongeth the adoption as of children and the glory and the testament and the giving of the law and the service of God and the promises: Whose are the fathers and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath miscarried. For all are not Israelites that are of Israel.” (Rom 9:4-6) Lose the Covenants of Noah and man is submerged in the last count, water down the covenant of Noah and attenuate God?

But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh: 15 Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees: that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace, Eph

I say then: Have they so stumbled, that they should fall? God forbid! But by their offence salvation is come to the Gentiles, that they may be emulous of them. Rom 11:11

With your rendition of a dead law what do you make of the apparent contradictions in Paul’s epistle to the Romans? Failing to understand the primary thrust of Paul’s message to the Roman’s we fail to see a binding externalization of the Law termed Judaizing. Given the grace of faith, we see a Law that can be internalized, placed in the heart, called Christianity. Noah

Kill the Law, and you can’t be born again,

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

Exactly bound until death.. Just like we are bound to the law of sin until we are baptized. Refer: Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

But, not exactly, especially if you’re referring to Romans 7: 1-4

"Know you not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law) that the law hath dominion over a man as long as it liveth? 2 For the woman that hath an husband, whilst her husband liveth is bound to the law. But if her husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 Therefore, whilst her husband liveth, she shall be called an adulteress, if she be with another man: but if her husband be dead, she is delivered from the law of her husband: so that she is not an adulteress, if she be with another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law, by the body of Christ: that you may belong to another, who is risen again from the dead that we may bring forth fruit to God."

Paul considers the un-baptized Jew as being “married” to the Mosaic Law and is ‘bound’ to it for life. The only way to escape the former ‘binding of the Law’ is to be resurrected into the body of Christ. A far different meaning from your rendition. The Law lives. We have Christ’s own words, which can’t be contorted, they’re plain, and simple, “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.” God rules! Through the law of the Prophets.

But Pope Paul VI sums it best:

“Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believes in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles. Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles, making both one in Himself.

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people. “Pope Paul VI, NOSTRA AETATE, OCTOBER 28, 1965

JoeT

Did Jesus Christ establish any new Laws??
I think He did such as "suffer the little children to come unto me and FORBID THEM NOT"
I think that there are others such as Chrsitian Baptism and the Holy Eucharist including "Love one another as I have loved you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Did Jesus Christ establish any new Laws???
I think He did such as "suffer the little children to come unto me and FORBID THEM NOT"
I think that there are others such as Chrsitian Baptism and the Holy Eucharist including "Love one another as I have loved you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

How about "34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." (John 13) ? Sounds command like to me?

JoeT

Thanks Joe,
So do those I mentioned sound like laws or orders to me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Do away with the Law what do we do with the biblical Jew, the Jew in Israel – they are still around you know?

Never did I say, do away with the Law.. Those who do not hold faith/One Faith in Christ are bound to the law, those who do not confess faith in Christ/One Lord, and those who are not baptized/One baptism.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

death to the body and sin comes by Law of Faith which is One LORD One Faith, and One Baptism ..We become circumsized of the heart, a seal of the righteousness of the faith..
Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

With your rendition of a dead law what do you make of the apparent contradictions in Paul's epistle to the Romans?

Joe, it is not a dead law.. I never said dead is the law...

Whether a person is bound to the law, is whether the body is dead to sin, buried in Christ. Once we are baptized our body of flesh is buried and dead in Christ, we have a good conscience toward God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

if you're referring to Romans 7: 1-4
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law, by the body of Christ: that you may belong to another, who is risen again from the dead that we may bring forth fruit to God."

This is exactly what I have said...
Look at your refer of dead to the law by my same refer.. It meaning is not that the law is dead but that we can be dead to the law by being ~in Christ .

What differs from what we believe is the body being dead to sin. I am dead to sin, I live to be all God created me to be, and I walk in the spirit of life. It is a confessed liberty of choice because it is what Christ redeems and delivers to us. My conscience is in doing God's will, and following Christ. And I can do this with HIS hand of power and authority over me. No longer bound to the law of sin, but the law of faith in Christ the spirit of life

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Thanks Joe,
So do those I mentioned sound like laws or orders to me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

This is the challenge the Judaizers were up against. Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) Most all of these are found in our Old Testament, in the Pentateuch. I think it’s interesting given the topic here. In fact the entire site is a gold mind of different Jewish customs.

To answer your question, yes these should be held as commandments though it is very difficult at times. But, don’t forget, the first, “to Love God” seems to hold the most weight.

JoeT

JoeT,
Yes, I do believe that to love God does carry the most weight of all the commandments.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

JoeT,
Yes, I do believe that to love God does carry the most weight of all the commandments.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, a circumsized heart, that is a seal of the righteousness in faith, does hold love in the grace of God

John 1:16 And of HIS fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

HIS Own Purpose and Grace

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness(Genesis 1:26)

An image of Righteousness

`in Christ

sndbay,
I praise God for the grace of God he has given us out of His infinite and perfect love and mercy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I believe the Apostle Paul was crystal clear on the subject. The body of Christ is NO longer under the Law of Moses. That does NOT mean that the principles of the Law are null and void. We can learn from them but we are no longer under them. The whole purpose for the law is to show us just how fallen of creatures we are. NO ONE other than the Lord Jesus could keep it.

I am actually quite amazed at the number of Christians who believe that we are under the law of Moses. I thought this was basic Christianity 101 here. IN fact I would even go so far as to say that the law and grace do NOT mix... it causes great confusion we you mix them up. Now, do I mean you can commit adultry... no! Murder? NO! Sin is sin. But as far as keeping the sabbath... I do NOT! I am free to eat pork, etc. There is lots in the law of moses... not just the 10 commandments.

We are under the law of the Ten XCommandments
That is what I believe.
Fred

Fred,

Do you keep the sabbath? The body of Christ are NOT under the 10 commandments. They are an excellent guideline but we are actually called to a higher standard. It is not only a sin to commit adultry but we find under grace that even lusting after someone in your heart is the same as adultry. We live under grace and should we break a commandment such a lying... we have an advocate with the Father... we confess it and move on. No animal sacrifrice is necessary. :)

classyT,
Jesus says the we must obey the commandments,
I believe He meant that.
Fred

Review: Hebrew 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This is saying that wilful sin is an insult to God, because Christ set you free from the bondage of sin. (Do not forget that Christ purged us from sin, Do not count HIM unworthy to purge us from sin)

2 Peter 1:9-10 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall