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Jeff - I understand what you are saying. When God told Israel to go into neighboring nations and kill the women, children, and young men, what do you make of that? Now, I'm not advocating we do these things but what do you make of it? How do you read these events in the Old Testament. Why was God telling Israel to do these things?Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
This is just for the purpose of looking at these issues from all different angles.
jakester my friend,
I love that you enjoy looking at things from different perspectives as do I and you seem to be able to handle disagreement - a mark of maturity.
As far as what I believe concerning going into the other nations and committing genocide, my take on this is if you have a cancer in your body and the only way to stop this deadly disease from spreading is to completely remove it so that the cancer cells have absolutely no contact with the healthy cells. Israel was the chosen of God, the surrounding nations were a totally pagan, polytheistic culture. God knew that any intermingling would cause His chosen to adopt the surrounding nations pagan ways. Evil is always disguising itself in an attractive way. Time after time whenever Gods people intermingle with the world, they become more worldly. It's like you can't walk in this world(when there are no sidewalks) without getting the filth of the world on you. As a young nation just getting to know God and what he was all about, God didn't want them to be confused about their true love(God) Just like the young Timothy is told to flee from sin.
After St. Augustine was born again, a young lady that he had been dallying with spotted him and called out, "Augie, Augie" he saw her and began walking quickly the other way. She called again, "Augie, it is I!" He kept on going and retorted back, "Yes, but it is no longer I."
As Paul said, "It is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me."
Jeff - thank you for sharing your thoughts. As I am sure you'd agree, life and what we believe isn't always so cut and dry. What I mean is that we all have to struggle to understand what we believe by testing things that we hear with what we read and see, etc. This issue of torture is one that I haven't fully put to bed yet... there are so many issues that I am sorting out in my mind which affect my thoughts on the subject. I am alive to the reality of what torture is and do not take it lightly. If I am wrong about the way I see it, I pray that God will open my eyes and grant wisdom to me. What else can I do?Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Likewise, I appreciate your maturity in having the compassion and integrity to deal with me as a human being with different thoughts and perspectives and disagree with me in a dignified manner.
Here I would say that Jesus did co-operate, yet the people to whom he was showing "the mirror" were bent on not letting Jesus go free. They were so much into the power of their positions that they did not even think before saying Matt 27:25 "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children". This clearly shows that they were bent on giving death to Jesus at any cost. Another thing is that they were not at all sensible and matured people even though they were respected leaders. Had they been matured they would not had tortured Jesus when He did not deny anything. It was their sin. However, we can ignore the fact that whatever happened to Him was all Lord God's plan. Now why did HE let Jesus suffer so much whereas an easy sacrifice of Jesus would had brought us salvation, we don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
One thing I want to know here is that are we talking about torture done during investigation or torture after the sentence is served?Quote:
Originally Posted by homesell
Torture is torture. It makes no difference why. Unless you can imagine Jesus torturing someone and telling us this is how we are to love our enemies and to love our neighbor as ourself.. . Unless you would really love being tortured. Or could express and demonstrate love for your enemies by torturing them.
I said that keeping in consideration that if the person is not co-operating with the law during an investigation, he is giving an opportunity to authorities to adopt another strategy. Is it not a responsibility of an investigator to collect the evidences and present to a judge to deliver justice to the victim? No need to use force, if a thing could be done peacefully, we all know this pretty well. Recently, in Ontario, Canada, a 8 year old girl went missing in the month of April. Yesterday, a couple got arrested for her murder. Six weeks after Ont., girl Tori goes missing, focus shifts to recovering her body - Yahoo! Canada News. I expect that arrested couple to "co-operate" in telling the police about the dead body of Tory so that police could be saved from exhausting search and could invest its energy in solving other cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Second thing we should never forget that as a Christians we are expected to live our lives with some expectations, however, as an individual Christian, every one is exceptional. Beside religion, culture also impacts significantly a person's life. In OT times, murdering someone was not "very wrong". Even Lord God was with His people during fights and wars. Did David, Samson, Joshua and others not killed people? Make me aware of a war where people were not killed.
This might be another debatable thing that, if we are told `Thou shalt no kill`, why do Christians join Military or Police services because while in action, killing someone in those services is inevitable at sometime or the other. However, I am neither justifying killing not supporting it.
Triund - I appreciate you pursuing these other avenues because we must have a panoramic view of God's love and his justice, which is what I suspect you are driving at. I appreciate your thoughts on this subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triund
Thanks Jake, God bless you.
Instead of letting God justify us through the cross, we try to justify our beliefs and actions against what Jesus clearly says is wrong by making excuses. "oh they deserved it" It's for the good of the country" they were withholding information vital to national security" the information we get may save thousands of lives"
Friends, we are not in this world to make it a better place. We are in it, not OF IT to glorify God and to tell others the good news of what God has done for us through Christ. Just as there are sick people out there that tell you they are a stripper for Christ and there are prostitutes that say they are hookers for Christ, even "hit men" that say they are doing what they do for Christ. They are as justified as the ones that can torture another human being "for Christ". Brothers and sisters, if we can't say what we do is for Christ. It is wrong. Pure and simple.
Before we can say whether Christianity condones torture in some circumstances, we must come to an agreement on the definition of torture.
The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1984 and entered into force on June 26, 1987.
It defines torture as any act by which:
Severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental; is intentionally inflicted on a person; for such purposes as:
• obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession
• punishing him/her for an act s/he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed
• intimidating or coercing him/her or a third person
• or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind;
When such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.*
The use of torture also violates U.S. law. In 1994, Congress passed a new federal law which specifically provides for penalties including fines and up to 20 years' imprisonment for acts of torture committed by American or other officials outside the United States. In cases where torture results in death of the victim, the sentence is life imprisonment or execution.
For the sake of argument, let us say that torture leads to saving thousands of American lives. If that would justify torture, would not that also justify murder? How many American and Iraqi lives would have been saved were someone to have taken the life of President Bush or Vice President Cheney before they gave the justification and order to invade Iraq? Do we want to allow a spouse to commit murder if they can show that they fear for their life, and if they didn’t kill their spouse, they would be killed themselves? That would be a major change to American law. What if we decided not to take prisoners, but to make sure that every enemy combatant who was captured was immediately executed? Would that not same millions of dollars? When we start letting the end justify the means, we will start down the path of our own destruction.
And, by the way, there were periods in history where Christians were tortured and did torture others. You can find this by researching the Crusades on Google.
Saying one is a Christian is, in essence saying you will act and respond and do as you believe Jesus would do under those circumstances. Anyone can say they are a christian and do anything and still believe they are a christian. That doesn't make it so. All I'm saying is that a "christian" that condones torture should question how he views Jesus, His Lord and Master. The example of police officers killing to save a life is invalid in that it is extremely rare(my son is a police officer) and they don't torture the person to get them to stop killing.
Jakestar, I hope you and any others who are confused about torture, or who try to justify torture by citing the Old Testament, will carefully read what Amdeist has written here. (Although I find his last paragraph to be gratuitous and anachronistic).Quote:
Originally Posted by amdeist
Athos - I am still waiting for you to man up, stop being a coward, and refute what I said earlier. I want to hear your argument from the bible or how you would personally deal with terrorists that blow people apart with bombs, rape women, and cut the heads off other people. Athos, how would you treat those types of people given who they are? How do you bring them to justice in the manner you think God would have you to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but like a teenager with a bb gun, you keep popping off shots from a distance without really engaging in the argument at all... I'm starting to lose respect for your position at all because you haven't offered a compelling argument for it. So how about it?
Jakester: The way you deal with any person that breaks the law is to put them on trial, convict them if possible, and give them the sentence as provided by the judge or jury. That is the American system. Even in war, America still uses the same system, such as the Nuremberg Trials? We have many mass murders that are in our jails and have been in our jails in the past. Is a terrorist any different than someone who cuts up the body parts and eats them after murdering the person? I think not. If you like the system of law used in the middle east, such as putting a man to death if he commits adultry, or cutting off a persons arm who steals, then you need to relocate. American presidents have been trying for years to get other countries in the world to acknowledge human rights, and without success in many cases. The answer is certainly not to lower ourselves to their level and go back to the stone age. Most Americans are outraged by those who would cut off heads, torture prisoners, rape women, etc. but we can't have it both ways. Once we allow our CIA or military to do such deeds would be telling the world it is acceptable, and every country would be doing it to our prisoners. I don't know about you, but were that the case, I would not have spend my career in the military.
How about instead, "convict them if guilty"?Quote:
Originally Posted by amdeist
Sounds good, but that isn't our system. We can pick apart our system of injustice in many ways. I, for one, dislike the fact that there is no justice for the victims. Madoff may go to jail, but that doesn't do anything for his victims. People who perpetrate crimes get punished in most cases, but the victim is without compensation most of the time.
If I were a lawyer, I would do a stint as a public defender. Why? Because a good public defender looks for the wrinkles and the chinks in the prosecution's case--not to get his possibly-guilty client off but to expose to daylight incorrect police procedures and legal arguments--plus offers a "holistic approach" to providing PD services to his clients.Quote:
Originally Posted by amdeist
No, there is no justice for victims. For them, the only justice might be that the perpetrator ends up in prison. There's no promise that victims will receive full repayment or removal of emotional and mental anguish or have broken lives restored. The civil courts at least give the victims the opportunity to collect damages.
Our judicial system is supposed to separate the unfairly accused from the real perps. Madoff going to jail does a lot for me. It means the system is working. He wasn't able to pay off the judge and get only a slap on the wrist. Even at the end of his term President Bush avoided commuting the sentence of Illinois' former governor Ryan whose lawyers are worried about his health and possibly dying in prison. But then, did he consider the health or deaths of future accident victims when he allowed, or at least overlooked, bribes in the Secy of State (DMV) office?
Our legal system has its speedbumps and potholes, but when it's allowed to work, it works very well indeed!
Madoff going to jail does nothing for me. I would rather have a system that has him work for the rest of his natural life and the pay he gets for his work goes to his victims. As far as civil courts allowing victims to get damages, tell that to the Goldmans. No, we have a bad system that needs fixing. Trial lawyers are getting victims compensation. What is wrong with this picture?
No, I don't believe anything in the bible condones torture.
I don't but I must ask as to what constitutes torture?
I think that anything that causes physical pain is torture.
I think that water boarding and sleep derivation is torture.
I also think that different people will have different ideas on what torture is.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Jakester - The answers you are looking for are found in the posts of homesell and Amdeist. It is YOUR job now to read them carefully and apply the principles found there to your own questions. Don't expect others to do the work for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
(Oh, and calling me a coward and a teenager with a BB gun does not advance your cause. In fact, it detracts from it).
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