 |
Back to Athos, who seems to have two (related) questions on the table:
1. Does mainstream Christianity believe other religions offer ways to salvation?
2. Can Hindus, say, achieve salvation through their own understanding of God. Or Buddhists. Or atheists (non-God). Or whatever.
I'm a real one. Have you read Hebrews 11?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
The Faith chapter? Of course.. but I don't get your point?
Athos,
There are many Christians who believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father and that it is He who will decide who goes where
Thus those who believe that are not limiting salvation to just Christians. Many believe that Jews will also be saved and PERHAPS SOME others depending on how Jesus judges them.
Personally I believe that true Christians will be saved and very possibly many Jews.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
What is faith?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
The Catholic Church teaches that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
1. God wants all men to be saved:
1 Timothy 2 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2. all men have the natural law imprinted in their hearts:
Romans 2 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:15 Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,
Therefore, no one has an excuse for not obeying God and being saved.
3. James 1 27 Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
1955 The "divine and natural" law shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one's equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called "natural," not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring. The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
Excellent post.
I'm glad you posted it for all to see and to help them understand.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Well Hebrews chapter 11 defines faith.. the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. But I'm still unsure of your point? Sorry.. I guess I'm slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Would you say that, in light of Hebrews 11, De Maria is correct about "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
classyT,
I believe that faith is much more than just belief.
It is belief, plus trust and a knowing which can all come through the Grace of god.
Practicing one's faith strengthens it like exercising a muscle strengthens it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Wondergirl,
I believe that faith is much more than just belief.
It is belief, plus trust and a knowing which can all come through the Grace of god.
Practicing one's faith strengthens it like exercising a muscle strengthens it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
The answear is written in Romans ch. 2
''1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I understand this answer, at least for Catholics, to be a resounding "Yes" to my original question. It seems the bottom line for Catholics on this topic is "... through the dictates of their conscience".
So are you saying that a non-Christian who has faith and trust in his version of God will be saved?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Wondergirl,
No, I was saying what a religious faith is.
I am not going to try to judge who is or is not saved. That job is for God ALONE.
The path to salvation is spelled out in the bible and please note that there are many different passages that tell us about the many steps to take along that path.
Faith is one of the big important steps, but there are more such as being good, not evil, doing the good works as instructed, obeying the law, and persevering to the end.
Thus we have the HOPE of salvation. As the bible says
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
Wow,Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
That is a great question and I don't know that I have some great answer. I can tell you what I KNOW to be true as far as the Bible is concerned.
The gospel of John the first chapter... john starts talking about the WORD of God which is Jesus. He also says that he made everything and that he is light... if you drop down to the 9th verse... he point blank makes this statement and I think it is HUGE. He says the true Light which lights every man that comes into the world. WOW. We pass by that verse without letting it sink in!! Sounds pretty crazy and yet that is exactly what the Word says. How does he do it? I have NO idea.. but I believe it. ( how is that for faith) ;)
There are many people who want to discuss this issue... what about this nation, this people, this tribe, this ciulture?. (that have NEVER HEARD the gospel) Well here is my answer to them... I don't know! I trust God enough to let him be GOD.. he is JUST and sovereign. THEN I follow that up with this... What will YOU DO with Christ? It is a personal thing... and I believe it is a way to get distracted from that reality... THEY have a decision to make. Let God handle the other...
And I still stand on the verse that NO ONE gets to the Father but through Jesus... Period. Jesus said it... not classyT... ha.
classyT,
Yes No one gets to the Father but by Jesus,
He is the judge.
His ministry on earth show Him to be kind, compassionate, merciful, forgiving.
So I expect Him to be that way when Judgment Day arrives.
He will decide who goes where.
Please and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
God,Quote:
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring. The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.
2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Therefore, there's a process to salvation, that god planned through jesus' work. When jesus was finally resurrected, the spirit of god now imprints his law onto our hearts, and helps us to be sanctified.
Act 2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Okay. Then consider this. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus is quoted as telling his disciples and the people in the crowds to love your enemies, to love your neighbor as yourself, that love is the fulfilling of the Law, that loving God is the greatest commandment with the second greatest being love one another. Jesus also said that it is only by losing oneself (in unconditional love toward another) that one can find oneself.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I work with Manisha, a Hindu from India. She has known only Hinduism since the day she was born. Her family for generations has been Hindu. Manisha lives her faith and doesn't have a mean bone in her body. She gives freely and generously to others of her time and talents. She epitomizes someone who follows Jesus' two greatest commandments. Does it matter that she is Hindu? Does her being Hindu cancel out the love that she shows to God* and to others?
*Hinduism considers God not just as the Supreme All-powerful Gigantic One, Who commands the humanity to tread the way He/She/It says, but also a personal God Whom the individual can worship out of love.
Wondergirl,
All I can do is point to God's Word and what IT has to say. You know, I don't think that it address the age old question: well what about the one who has never heard of Jesus or the Gospel or how to be saved. I know the heart of the Lord was for all of us to go to the ends of the earth preaching what he did for us. But I can tell you that God is LOVE and he is a Just GOD full of mercy, grace and goodness. I am content to Let God be God in these instances.
BUT to those who have heard the Gospel and rejected Jesus Christ.. even IF they are still kind and follow all the golden rules I will tell you what the LORD has to say about them, he lumps them in with the worst of the worst...
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abdominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers and idolaters and all lairs shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire.
YIKES.. all you got to be is UNBELIEVING... and of course a unbeliever would be someone who heard but say NO... I believe Hinduism or Wicca, or Buddha, or whatever... they rejected Jesus.
The GOOD NEWS IS: Whosoever will may come and they still do everyday!
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:31 PM. |