I believe there has been much misunderstanding about the teaching of the tares. I believe Jesus taught about things up to the very end, when He will turn all things back to the Father. I believe the parable of the tares is a Milleninum prophecy. The Kingdom of Jesus Christ will be world wide, BUT the requirements for salvation will be the same as it is now, faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Not everyone in the Kingdom will be saved. They will live right, because there will be no way to escape punishment for crime. But there will come that time when Satan is loosed "for a little season" and then there will be the final rebellion, and the binding of the tares to be burned.

Do you think Mary is the sun clothed woman in chapter 12? Why or why not?

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

How can the Lord bring this multitude of saints WITH Him unless they have previously been called up to Him?

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These saints are refer: as the holy ones (angels)

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Psalms 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord [is] among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

Other refer as to what the angels do in scripture.. each leads to Jude1:14 saints Acts 7:53 Gal 3:19 Hab 2:2

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Do you think Mary is the sun clothed woman in chapter 12? Why or why not?

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No it is not Mary.. Chapter 12 of Revelation offers the longest period of time written in one chapter then any other chapter of the bible. It is what I would call an[ inserted ] refer that God has done to help us understand the beginning first age through the present age of salvation.

Revelation 21:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

1. The great wonder in heaven is a "sign"
2. The woman is (mother Israel) or a "believer"
3. The sun, moon, star, is the zodiac that will offer signs to the believer (signs foretold of in Genesis)

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The believer being born here on earth of woman

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

1. another sign
2. a red dragon is a deceiver, satan
3. again with signs when satan

Understand on earth there is "Good" and "bad" and that is a signs offered from heaven.

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Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Understand on earth there is Good and bad.. and watch for signs foretold of in scripture.

Jeremiah 24:2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

Leaving people to have Free Will .. Choice .. As children of God in obedience or as bad in evil

1Thes 4:17-18
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

I posted this before, but I don't think you addressed it. If believers are here through the Great Tribulation until Jesus sets His foot on Mt Olivet, then why would they be caught up in the air? Do you believe in the rapture at any time? Pre trib, mid trib or post trib?

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

1Thes 4:17-18
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

I posted this before, but I don't think you addressed it. If believers are here through the Great Tribulation until Jesus sets His foot on Mt Olivet, then why would they be caught up in the air? Do you believe in the rapture at any time? Pre trib, mid trib or post trib?

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Spirit of Truth will be in all scripture ... No I do not follow man's teaching known of the rapture, because that teaching contradicts scripture.

This, the second heaven and earth age will pass away, but the Word of God never changes. That is why studying God's Word is never a waste of time.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

These things are going to happen. Don't let the cares of this world cause these events to slip up on you.

Luke 21:35-36 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Sorry, but you are ignoring this scripture, apparently because it doesn't fit with your theology. If we are to continue this discussion further, you must address this passage.

1Thes 4:17-18
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

If not, then there is no point in me posting anything more here.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Sorry, but you are ignoring this scripture, apparently because it doesn't fit with your theology. If we are to continue this discussion further, you must address this passage.

1Thes 4:17-18
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

If not, then there is no point in me posting anything more here.

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Excuse me, I did not know you had wanted me to explain this..

"Sleep in Jesus" is an expression not found/elsewhere..1 Cr 15:18
"dead in Christ" are spoken as with what can compare. Romans 8:10

prevent.. We will not stand in the way..

1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Trump .. Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Note: Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

caught up .. 2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Spiritual realm must be recognized and gathered (as all return to heaven once dead of this world to raise as Christ had raised)

1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

To meet.. Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.


1 Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I hope this helped.

Well, if I understand you rightly, you do expect for believers to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. So how do you see the sequence of events? Prophecy in general and Revelation in particular is not always easy to find the chronological order. Revelation is a series of different visions, all eventually pointing to the return of Jesus as King.

You pointed out the harvest of the "vine of the earth" cast into the winepress. This is the second harvest shown in Revelation. The visions carry through to after the Millennium, and the descent of New Jerusalem, so there are several events spaced over a lengthy period which must be carefully discerned or we will be confused.

I believe the next major event on God's calendar is the calling out of the Church. The Church age ends and the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy begins. After that, there is a timetable for everything up to the beginning of the Millennium.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Well, if I understand you rightly, you do expect for believers to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. So how do you see the sequence of events? Prophecy in general and Revelation in particular is not always easy to find the chronological order. Revelation is a series of different visions, all eventually pointing to the return of Jesus as King.

You pointed out the harvest of the "vine of the earth" cast into the winepress. This is the second harvest shown in Revelation. The visions carry through to after the Millennium, and the descent of New Jerusalem, so there are several events spaced over a lengthy period of time which must be carefully discerned or we will be confused.

I believe the next major event on God's calendar is the calling out of the Church. The Church age ends and the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy begins. After that, there is a timetable for everything up to the beginning of the Millennium.

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The sequence of events I believe has always shown great love from God to His children. Hearing His message and obedience to the Father's Will is necessary for the child of God. However, the chronological order to the book of Revelation is not done, so yes it does take some depth in study, and prayer in revealing. Yet each time I read it I have found more and more order in mind.

Obedience and Watch

2 Timothy 2: 4-5 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

Satan will come first with powers to deceive as Revelation 13 tells us. When you see how people today look to follow anyone to bring new hope, I feel most will be easily deceive by a man(666) who will come as the angel of light. This is why Christ has foretold us not to marvel concerning this 2 Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The scripture that have been previously posted, I feel clearly shows the path to follow.
Luke 12:37-38 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

For if you watch satan can't successLuke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.


The Millennium will be the 1000 year period after the 2nd advent when the elect will teach without the deception of satan and his followers.Revelation 20:1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Time between the first ressurection (Revelation 20:6) when those who were found without the mark of the beast, shown victory over satan and his deception. These are the elect who will reign with Christ teaching. Blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection, on such death hath no power.

After that thousand year then satan will again be loosed out of prison to deceive the nation. Revelation 20:8.

Of course satan is doomed as are any who follow him. Revelation 20:10

Followed with judgementReveleation 20:11

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Well, if I understand you rightly, you do expect for believers to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

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I would call caught up together as clearly meaning we change to a spiritual realm no longer needing the flesh body, and joining all in heaven with Christ. I realize most people fear the thought of their flesh body being back to dust, but we do not use the flesh body in the Kingdom of Heaven which is a spiritual realm./air/sky
Do you view the difference?

The Bible says no man knows the day or the hour.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
The Bible says Jesus will return when no one is expecting it.
Matthew 24:43-44
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The return of the Lord for the church is imminent (could take place at any time).
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Therefore we need to live our lives as if the Lord were returning tonight.

Sndbay, we do not have much disagreement. Mainly on 2 points, when the believers are caught up to meet Jesus and maybe about what kind of bodies we will have. The glorified body is not less material than our earthly body, but will not be subject to earthly limitations. When John saw Jesus on Patmos, he saw a body, not a spirit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Sndbay, we do not have much disagreement. Mainly on 2 points, when the believers are caught up to meet Jesus and maybe about what kind of bodies we will have. The glorified body is not less material than our earthly body, but will not be subject to earthly limitations. When John saw Jesus on Patmos, he saw a body, not a spirit.

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Praise God for that..

The answer to both are in scripture... review "caught up" .. I view these scripture to give the description of caught up and it's meaning.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

In my heart and mind, an individual only needs to realize the reality of 2 realms of existence.
1. Kingdom of Heaven
2. Earth..

1Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Meaning (Nothing more then gathering the sheep into the realm of The Kingdom with Christ in Heaven) To Seize

_____________________________________________

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

When John saw Jesus on Patmos, he saw a body, not a spirit.

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>>>>?
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(John was in the spirit)Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Here on earth we are of flesh...

God determined that man's body would return to dust in Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Upon the death of any flesh body here on earth returning to dust, thus the spirit/soul returns to God in heaven.
2 Corinthians 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Ecc 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

ashley0716,
I believe that it will be a long time before the second coming of Jesus.
One reason is that the bible tells us that He will come when we least expect it.
Right now more people expect it than ever before simply because so many ministers and millions of books are proclaiming it.
Secondly the prophesy that the third temple will be built on Temple Mount before the Messiah returns.
Yes funds are being collected now to rebuild it but the Muslims now control the temple mount and they are not about to let the temple of Yahweh to be built there.
Even after construction gets started it would be years before the temple is completed.
I'll start to believe the return to be much nearer when construction of the temple gets underway.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by arcura

ashley0716,
I believe that it will be a long time before the second coming of Jesus.
One reason is that the bible tells us that He will come when we least expect it.
Right now more people expect it than ever before simpley because so many ministers and millions of books are proclaiming it.
Secondly the prophesy that the third temple will be built on Temple Mount before the Messiah returns.
Yes funds are being collected now to rebuild it but the Muslims now control the temple mount and they are not about to let the temple of Yahweh to be built there.
Even after construction gets started it would be years before the temple is completed.
I'll start to believe the return to be much nearer when construction of the temple gets underway.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Fred this thread concerning rapture was discouraged after scripture had proven it to be false teaching. Through each posting it has been determined that we are told to be watchman. The second coming of Christ is after satan comes first to deceive us fore told by Jesus, Himself in II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Ezekiel 3: 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

What you have offered as your choice concerning The Lord's Day should be under a different thread. And if somehow a temple is being built before Christ returns, I suspect it is being built for satan, the son of perdition. Satan will stand proclaiming to be the Lamb with great power and signs
II Thessalonians 2:9 [Even Him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the [abomination of desolation], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the [abomination of desolation,] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

This showing one day that some people did not believe in truth of scripture as the Word of God.

Remember: Truth... Watch

Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mark 13:34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

sndbay,
Yes watch and pray is necessary.
But also keep in mind that there will be JUST one return of the Messiah and it will be when the world LEAST expects it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
Yes watch and pray is necessary.
But also keep in mind that there will be JUST one return of the Messiah and it will be when the world LEAST expects it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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My take on that is this. Does ANYONE expect Jesus to return TODAY?? I think not.
Where I think I disagree with Sndbay is that I believe Jesus will CALL His Church out without ever touching Earth. Then He will actually RETURN to Mt Olivet at the end of the Great Tribulation, (Day of the Lord). That clears up some seeming contridictions in what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians.

Galveston1,
I believe that Christ's return will be as the bible says; that is that the whole world will see it.
Modern day TV will cover the event.
Keep watch on the news channels after the new temple is built and the shofar of God is blown as is done on the day of atonement.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

My take on that is this. Does ANYONE expect Jesus to return TODAY??? I think not.
Where I think I disagree with Sndbay is that I believe Jesus will CALL His Church out without ever touching Earth. Then He will actually RETURN to Mt Olivet at the end of the Great Tribulation, (Day of the Lord). That clears up some seeming contridictions in what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians.

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"The Lord's Day"

Continue to listen and watch... Note: 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

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Revelation 20:2-3 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

sndbay ,
I eagerly await the time when Satan will be bound in hell and no longer can tempt us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred