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Originally Posted by sndbay

These verses show the three in "One" Trinity is a word description of the three in One.
In Heaven
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.
On Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in One.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The Words in those scriptures posted are the Spirit of Truth which say all that is necessary. Read the scriptures. Who would man be to think he can or could say it better then what God, Himself has offered.
And I need not be anything other then a child of God who follows Christ Jesus.

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All seriousness aside: I interpret the use of these scriptures to mean:

• 1 John 5:6-7: Christ came by blood and water [the blood he shared with his mother in the womb and the embryonic waters of his mother’s womb]. The Spirit breathed life into him [he was conceived by the Holy Spirit]. All of which was witnessed by the Holy Trinity.
• 1 John 5:8: Considering the preceding verse this means the Trinity recorded this event and revealed them to Peter.

That wasn’t so hard after all. Is this what you mean by the Scriptures are all that is necessary?

Seriously, wouldn’t clear communication be made better by stating your beliefs and support them with Scripture?

JoeT.

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Originally Posted by cogs

i cannot prove that mary sinned.

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I can - she said that she needed a Saviour.

Wisdom is The Father of Truth, give ear to wisdom.

Proverbs 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

Proverbs 8:14 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Due 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Twisting of scripture ( watch for it )

Warning of satan followers, full of pride which God hates (proverbs 8:14)

Deu 32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

This is talking about satan followers, they twist scripture (perverse) just as satan exampled in his tempting with Christ..Matthew 4... Watch for twisting or perversed scripture in these postings.


1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Door Closed withdraw

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

But why would Mary be included in “unbelief” when she was told by Gabriel that she would bear the Son of God?


JoeT

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Let's go at this from a different perspective. It is obvious that you believe that Mary was perfect, without sin. How did she attain to this? If you say immaculate conception, then EVERY mother back to Eve would have to be able to so conceive, but we know Eve could not. (Do you know that there is a harlot in Mary's ancestry?) If you say that Mary was righteous by her own efforts, then you destroy the need for a Saviour. If one human can be sinless by their own efforts, then anyone can be sinless by their own works. You know that is not possible. Either argument falls flat, whether you look at it from a Biblical view or from reason.

Face it. Mary was a virtuous girl who kept the Law as well as she could. She was honored by God's selection of her to be the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. She was conceived just like everyone else, and born the same. She was there with the rest of the obedient believers when the Holy Ghost was given to the Church, and she spoke with "tongues" like the rest of them.

I certainly honor and respect Mary. I'm just not accepting any "immaculate conception" or bodily assumption for Mary. She will be resurrected and rise with the rest of those who died in faith.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I can - she said that she needed a Saviour.

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Correction. She said that God was her Saviour. Past tense.

Luke 1 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Let's go at this from a different perspective. It is obvious that you believe that Mary was perfect, without sin. How did she attain to this? If you say immaculate conception, then EVERY mother back to Eve would have to be able to so concieve, but we know Eve could not. (Do you know that there is a harlot in Mary's ancestry?) If you say that Mary was righteous by her own efforts, then you destroy the need for a Saviour. If one human can be sinless by their own efforts, then anyone can be sinless by their own works. You know that is not possible. Either argument falls flat, whether you look at it from a Biblical view or from reason.

Face it. Mary was a virtuous girl who kept the Law as well as she could. She was honored by God's selection of her to be the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. She was concieved just like everyone else, and born the same. She was there with the rest of the obedient believers when the Holy Ghost was given to the Church, and she spoke with "tongues" like the rest of them.

I certainly honor and respect Mary. I'm just not accepting any "immaculate conception" or bodily assumption for Mary. She will be resurrected and rise with the rest of those who died in faith.

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Who said that she attained to this by her own efforts?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Who said that she attained to this by her own efforts?

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Please explain. Are you saying that there is one way to salvation for Mary and another for the rest of us? No one was justified by the Law, and that is what everyone lived under until the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. Therefore Mary could not have been justified under the Law.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Let's go at this from a different perspective. It is obvious that you believe that Mary was perfect, without sin.

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"By a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ" she is protected from sin. She was “full” of grace. Like a container, every void was filled with grace.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

How did she attain to this?

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It was a grace from God.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

If you say immaculate conception, then EVERY mother back to Eve would have to be able to so conceived,

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That's illogical. How if one person, of their own will, decides to become the Lord's handmaiden, then all would be Eve? While I would agree that Mary was the “new” Eve, I don't think I mentioned it. I thought it might be too complicated to explain in this format. Why do you bring it up here?

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

but we know Eve could not. (Do you know that there is a harlot in Mary's ancestry?)

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What's being suggested here? If this is headed where I think it is, you can save your insults.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

If you say that Mary was righteous by her own efforts,

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You're letting your Protestant raising show through. Who said she was righteous of her own volition? It has never been suggested.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

then you destroy the need for a Savior.

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Did it ever occur to you that if Christ wasn't born of Mary, then we wouldn't have had a Savior.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

If one human can be sinless by their own efforts, then anyone can be sinless by their own works. You know that is not possible. Either argument falls flat, whether you look at it from a Biblical view or from reason.

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These concepts were never offered as evidence of the truth; so yes it falls flat, but only because you've misstated elemental concepts in the debate.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Face it. Mary was a virtuous girl who kept the Law as well as she could. She was honored by God's selection of her to be the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. She was conceived just like everyone else, and born the same. She was there with the rest of the obedient believers when the Holy Ghost was given to the Church, and she spoke with "tongues" like the rest of them.

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This is what I face:

"[I embrace] the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

I certainly honor and respect Mary.

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Good.

JoeT

If Mary was not born with original Sin why did she have to die then? As God said the wages of sin is Death, Mary lived 9 years more after Jesus was Crucified then died. So she had to Die like everyone else, I can only assume she is also one of adam and Eve's seed just like we are. Its just that, she was a virgin when she was engaged to Joseph, so she was without " Sexual Sin " and was conceived by the holy spirit and gave birth to Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Correction. She said that God was her Saviour. Past tense.

Luke 1 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

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First - where do you see past tense? My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour also - are you saying that I also am born without sin?

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

If Mary was not born with original Sin why did she have to die then ?? As God said the wages of sin is Death, Mary lived 9 years more after Jesus was Crucified then died. So she had to Die like everyone else, i can only assume she is also one of adam and Eve's seed just like we are. Its just that, she was a virgin when she was engaged to Joseph, so she was without " Sexual Sin " and was conceived by the holy spirit and gave birth to Jesus Christ.

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See if the following response helps explain:

Eve…”having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.” St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres. 3, 22

And remembering that salvation includes being risen, body and soul, into heaven we see why many believe in the Assumption of Mary into heaven.

Irenaeus goes on to say,”… also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.” St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres. 3, 22, 4

St. Jerome adds that, “In those days, as I have said, the virtue of continence was found only in men: Eve still continued to travail with children. But now that a virgin has conceived (Isaiah 7:14) in the womb and has borne to us a child of which the prophet says that Government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called the mighty God, the everlasting Father, (Isaiah 9:6) now the chain of the curse is broken. Death came through Eve, but life has come through Mary. And thus the gift of virginity has been bestowed most richly upon women, seeing that it has had its beginning from a woman. As soon as the Son of God set foot upon the earth, He formed for Himself a new household there; that, as He was adored by angels in heaven, angels might serve Him also on earth.” St. Jerome, Epistle 22, par. 21

In my opinion this best describes the new Eve. (Cf. CCC, 494)

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Eve…”having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.” St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres. 3, 22

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Interesting that scripture attributes the cause of salvation to Jesus, while you chose a quote attributing it to Mary

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And remembering that salvation includes being risen, body and soul, into heaven we see why many believe in the Assumption of Mary into heaven.

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This is contrary to scripture. Where in scripture do we find anything remotely suggesting that Mary was assumed?

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Death came through Eve, but life has come through Mary.

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Again, scripture says that death came through Adam and life came through Jesus. I wonder why men try to replace Jesus with Mary.

Romans 5:14-19
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
NKJV

Do you know that there are even Bibles that change "he" to "she" in Genesis 3:15 to make it appear that it is Mary who crushes the head of Satan?

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Please explain. Are you saying that there is one way to salvation for Mary and another for the rest of us? No one was justified by the Law, and that is what everyone lived under until the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. Therefore Mary could not have been justified under the Law.

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Mary was saved by Jesus sacrifice on the Cross. Just like every body else.

The only difference is that Jesus, in obedience to God the Father, honored His mother by permitting her justification before she was conceived.

This is a justification by GRACE. That is what kecharitomene means. Full of Grace from the beginning of her being.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The only difference is that Jesus, in obedience to God the Father, honored His mother by permitting her justification before she was conceived.

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What is the Bible passage that supports this, please?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Interesting that scripture attributes the cause of salvation to Jesus, while you chose a quote attributing it to Mary

This is contrary to scripture. Where in scripture do we find anything remotely suggesting that Mary was assumed?

Again, scripture says that death came through Adam and life came through Jesus. I wonder why men try to replace Jesus with Mary.

Romans 5:14-19
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
NKJV

Do you know that there are even Bibles that change "he" to "she" in Genesis 3:15 to make it appear that it is Mary who crushes the head of Satan?

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
NKJV

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That's because you don't have the "Offical Scriptures", the Vulgate which read as follows:

Gen 3:14, Et ait Dominus Deus ad serpentem:

Quia fecisti hoc, maledictus es inter omnia animantia, et bestias terræ: super pectus tuum gradieris, et terram comedes cunctis diebus vitæ tuæ.
15 Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem,
et semen tuum et semen illius:
ipsa conteret caput tuum,
et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus.

Translated by Douay as follows:

Gen 3:14, And the Lord God said to the serpent:

Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Obviously you don’t have an “official” bible. Check out the Council of Trent, I think its session 4; it lists the “official” bible and what books go into it.

Which Council was the KJV "made offical"?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Interesting that scripture attributes the cause of salvation to Jesus, while you chose a quote attributing it to Mary

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Its in Scripture:
Luke 1 38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Here Scripture is telling you that it is because of Mary's obedience to God's Word that Jesus was born to her. Jesus is our Savior. But without Mary's cooperation, He would not have been born.

Therefore, the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS interpreted Scripture to mean that both Jesus and Mary were the cause of Salvation. If Mary had said no, Jesus would not have been born and we would die in our sins.

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This is contrary to scripture. Where in scripture do we find anything remotely suggesting that Mary was assumed?

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Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

And we find that this idea of assumption to heaven is not contrary to Scripture:
Enoch was assumed:
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

So was Elijah:
2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

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Again, scripture says that death came through Adam and life came through Jesus. I wonder why men try to replace Jesus with Mary.

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Who is trying to replace Jesus with Mary. We are simply obeying the Scripture which says:
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

So although you want to thumb your nose at the Mother of God, we note that even God sent an Angel to praise her:

Luke 1 26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

If God Himself finds Mary worthy of praise, why do you belittle her?

Romans 5:14-19
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,

even over those who had not sinned

according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,....

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Do you know that there are even Bibles that change "he" to "she" in Genesis 3:15 to make it appear that it is Mary who crushes the head of Satan?

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
NKJV

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I believe that is based on the most ancient Bible known. St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate.

In either case, the logical ramification is the same. Either Mary crushed Satan by giving birth to Jesus. Or Jesus crushed Satan after being born of Mary.

Same difference.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What is the Bible passage that supports this, please?

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Luke 1 26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

In Greek, Kecharitomene, she who is always graced.
The Meaning of Kecharitomene: Full of Grace (Luke 1:28)

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

That's because you don't have the "Offical Scriptures", the Vulgate which read as follows

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I not only have the official scriptures (they are not from your denomination!). And the official scripture are clear that it is is HE (Jesus) who crushes the head of Satan - both in the local context and if that is not enough - the gospel is clear that it is Jesus alone who defeated satan.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Its in Scripture:
Luke 1 38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Here Scripture is telling you that it is because of Mary's obedience to God's Word that Jesus was born to her.

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I don't believe that you actually read this. It does not say that at all. And scripture does not contradict itself. The quote from Romans is explicit in gthat it is Jersus not Mary that brought about salvation through obedience.

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Jesus is our Savior. But without Mary's cooperation, He would not have been born.

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You have a low view of God. God would not have been stymied if Mary did not cooperate.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I not only have the official scriptures (they are not from your denomination!). And the official scripture are clear that it is is HE (Jesus) who crushes the head of Satan - both in the local context and if that is not enough - the gospel is clear that it is Jesus alone who defeated satan.

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And the Gospel is clear that Jesus is born of Mary. And if Mary had not born Jesus, we would die in our sins.