Galveston1 brought it up. He simply followed that line of thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
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Galveston1 brought it up. He simply followed that line of thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I think Joe mis-understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Sigh! We have been through this loop so many times. You keep asking this question and it keeps getting answered. So I cannot believe that you are serious in asking it.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Do you understand the difference between Mary and Jesus?
Hopefully yes.
Elizabeth was speaking about Mary's role, not Jesus' nature.
Jesus nature is God. He always was God and always will be God.
Jesus was not always man, though He will be fully God and fully man into eternity.
God was not created.
As Fr_Chuck put it so nicely, the baby was creatyed - the flesh did not pre-exist Mary, but God did.
Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh - she did not give birth to divinity / God / trinity.
Elizabeth acknowledged Jesus' authority as Lord.
Jesus as fully man and fully God has that authority as Lord.
Mary gave birth therefore to the Lord as she she gave birth to Jesus (this was His initial entry into the world as a man.
I hope that in point form it is easy enough to understand so that we don't have to go through this loop again.
You keep avoiding the questions. Just answer them directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
EXACTLY!! Mary's role is mother of God.Quote:
Do you understand the difference between Mary and Jesus?
Hopefully yes.
Elizabeth was speaking about Mary's role, not Jesus' nature.
AMEN!!Quote:
Jesus nature is God. He always was God and always will be God.
Correct.Quote:
Jesus was not always man, though He will be fully God and fully man into eternity.
God was not created.
Bravo Fr Chuck!!Quote:
As Fr_Chuck put it so nicely, the baby was creatyed - the flesh did not pre-exist Mary, but God did.
Oooooh too bad. You were so close. Mary did give birth to God. Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to Jesus. Therefore, Mary gave birth to God.Quote:
Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh - she did not give birth to divinity / God / trinity.
Mary did not create God in eternity. Eternal God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, entered her womb and willed to be born of her in the flesh.
Therefore, Mary gave birth to God in the flesh.
It makes as much sense to say that Mary gave birth to Jesus the man but not to Jesus who is God, as it would to say that an ordinary woman gave birth to her sons flesh but not to his spirit. A person is one being. And Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Holy Trinity IN THE FLESH.
Are you saying, that inspired by the Holy Spirit, she meant "how does the mother of my human authority come to me?" Then why did the child, John the Baptist, jump in her womb?Quote:
Elizabeth acknowledged Jesus' authority as Lord.
Because He is God. If Jesus were simply a man, I wouldn't be a Christian and I would not call Him Lord. Simple as that.Quote:
Jesus as fully man and fully God has that authority as Lord.
Would you?
Are you saying that Jesus was not God when He was born?Quote:
Mary gave birth therefore to the Lord as she she gave birth to Jesus (this was His initial entry into the world as a man.
When did He lose His Divinity, when He was conceived in Her womb?
The logic is very simple.Quote:
I hope that in point form it is easy enough to understand so that we don't have to go through this loop again.
Jesus is God.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
And St. Elizabeth recognized that Mary is the Mother of God and therefore called her the Mother of my Lord.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I can post them, but unless you read'em...Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
See this is where we keep getting caught. Mary did not pre-exist God nor give birth to the trinity.Quote:
Mary did give birth to God.
Now if you believe this, just show us the verse which says that she did, and we can end this discussion. But we get stuck on this point because you hold to your denomination's teachings and I hold to what scripture says. Until you can demonstrate that scripture calls Mary the mother of God, we will be at that impasse because I do not accept the teachings of your denomination as doctrine unless they are in concert with scripture.
You will note that I skipped many of your questions because I see little need to keep answering them over and over.
Using your same logic, which ignores the following facts:Quote:
The logic is very simple.
Jesus is God.
Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
1) God is a trinity
2) Jesus is the only person 9even of the trinity) who is fully God and fully man.
3) God was eternally pre-existent.
Now using your approach, and assuming that your claims are accurate for the moment, here are some other logic syllogisms that we could come us with.
Jesus is the Son of God
Mary is mother of God
Therefore Mary is the grandmother of Jesus.
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God
Mary is therefore the wife of God the Father.
Mary is the wife of Joseph
Mary is a polygamist.
Mary is also married to her son.
I could go on and on. The fallacy in the approach that you are taking should be clear and obvious.
Post what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Did I say that she did? I thought I clearly explained:Quote:
See this is where we keep getting caught. Mary did not pre-exist God nor give birth to the trinity.
Quote:
Mary did not create God in eternity. Eternal God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, entered her womb and willed to be born of her in the flesh.
Therefore, Mary gave birth to God in the flesh.
It makes as much sense to say that Mary gave birth to Jesus the man but not to Jesus who is God, as it would to say that an ordinary woman gave birth to her sons flesh but not to his spirit. A person is one being. And Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Holy Trinity IN THE FLESH.
Every verse that says that she is the mother of Jesus means that she is the Mother of God.Quote:
Now if you believe this, just show us the verse which says that she did, and we can end this discussion.
When Elizabeth says that Mary is the mother of my Lord, that means that Mary is the Mother of God.Quote:
But we get stuck on this point because you hold to your denomination's teachings and I hold to what scripture says. Until you can demonstrate that scripture calls Mary the mother of God, we will be at that impasse because I do not accept the teachings of your denomination as doctrine unless they are in concert with scripture.
You answered them before?Quote:
You will note that I skipped many of your questions because I see little need to keep answering them over and over.
No. You skipped over those portions of my message.Quote:
Using your same logic, which ignores the following facts:
1) God is a trinity
2) Jesus is the only person 9even of the trinity) who is fully God and fully man.
3) God was eternally pre-existent.
That syllogism would only work if Mary were the eternal mother of eternal God. But that isn't the Catholic Teaching. Mary is the mother of Jesus therefore she is the mother of God.Quote:
now using your approach, and assuming that your claims are accurate for the moment, here are some other logic syllogisms that we could come us with.
Jesus is the Son of God
Mary is mother of God
Therefore Mary is the grandmother of Jesus.
You are interpreting the Biblical truth that Mary is the mother of God almost as a Muslim interprets the Biblical truth that Jesus is the son of God. Muslims claim that if Jesus is the son of God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then God had sex with Mary.Quote:
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God
Mary is therefore the wife of God the Father.
Mary is the wife of Joseph
Mary is a polygamist.
Mary is also married to her son.
But that isn't true. Mary is the Mother of God because you can't say that Jesus was ever not God. And Mary is Jesus' mother. Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
As Luther would put it:
"God did not derive his Divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's Mother . . . She is the true Mother of God and Bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc."
"For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . .just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone. (On the Councils and the Church, 1539).
Deployment journey: The veneration of Mary isn't as offensive to Protestant reformers as I was led to believe
There is no fallacy in my approach. Your approach seems much like the Muslim approach.Quote:
I could go on and on. The fallacy in the approach that you are taking should be clear and obvious.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sigh! Please read the previous posts and keep up with the thread. We were talking about the answers that I keep posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Then she cannot be mother of God.Quote:
Did I say that she did? I thought I clearly explained:
That is your claim. But we are still waiting for your proof from scripture that she pre-existed God and gave birth to the trinity.Quote:
Every verse that says that she is the mother of Jesus means that she is the Mother of God.
Again, your claim. Facts are not created because you declare them to be so.Quote:
When Elizabeth says that Mary is the mother of my Lord, that means that Mary is the Mother of God.
See what I mean - I can answer them (as I have), but unless you read 'em...Quote:
You answered them before?
That was my point - these syllogisms of yours may be cute, but they omit some key details that invalidate them logically.Quote:
That syllogism would only work if Mary were the eternal mother of eternal God.
Again, please stick with defending your position rather than trying to mis-represent and attack my faith.Quote:
You are interpreting the Biblical truth that Mary is the mother of God almost as a Muslim interprets the Biblical truth that Jesus is the son of God. Muslims claim that if Jesus is the son of God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then God had sex with Mary.
A = Gabriel said to Mary, Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus (C.f. Luke 1). So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave brth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. We can confidently say Mary is a Mother. Do we believe it; sure we do!
B = Gabriel continued saying that He, “born of thee shall be called the Son of God … Son of the Most High…And the child grew and was strengthened in spirit (C.f. Luke 1). We can confidently say, Mary gave birth to God; the Son of God, Son of the Most High, the second person in the Triune. Do we believe it; sure we do!
So, we can examine the axiomatic property of closure and say that the sum of A+B=C
Mary is a Mother + Mary births God = C ===>>> Holy Mary is Mother of God !
Do we believe it, sure we do! It’s in the Bible. Now that we’ve finished with the hard math, let’s turn to something a little easier.
Biblical meaning of Lord = God.
Thus, as the Doctors and Fathers of our faith teach from scripture; when Elizabeth asked why, “the mother of my Lord should come to me?” We can assertively say that Elizabeth was addressing, “the Mother of God.” Why? Because it’s in the Bible.
[Corollary: Now get this; with A, B and given that the throne of David will be given to Him by God! Consider, Throne ->authority -> keys –> get it? We’ll do this one some other time; just thought I’d point it out.]
All of which might help explain why we call the Blessed Virgin Mary,
Holy Mary
Holy Mother of God
Most honored of virgins
Mother of Christ
Mother of the Church
Mother of divine grace
Mother most pure
Mother of Chaste love
Sinless Mother
Virgin most wise
Virgin rightly praised
Cause of our joy
And why we say:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God; that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
I hope the logic wasn’t too much.
JoeT
You said:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
"So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave birth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. "
Your (faulty) logic is:
- Mary is a mother
- Mary births God
- Mary is mother of God.
But scripture says more that that. It says that mary conceived Jesus!
Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV
So now using your (faulty) logic, we now have:
- Mary is a mother
- Mary conceives God
- Mary is mother of God.
So you are saying that Mary conceived God?
I don't buy it. It is a heresy because God pre-existed Mary, and Jesus was God from eternity (Micah 5:2). But if you are going to use that faulty syllogism, this is where it leads.
Jesus did not change (Heb 13:8), but Mary conceived a baby, the flesh that in which Jesus manifested Himself (1 Tim3:16). Prior to this, though He was fully God into eternity past, He was not a man. When Mary conceived through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, He was manifested in the flesh and became fully man.
Mary conceived the flesh - she did not conceived God. God already existed.
Sorry, but I do not base my doctrine on the tradition of your denomination, but rather I base my doctrine on scripture.Quote:
Thus, as the Doctors and Fathers of our faith...
Luke 11:27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
KJV
BTW, what was Mary Queen of, according to you?
Fr Chuck,
I agree with you 100% on that.
It is silly that people will try to twist what the bible says just because they disagree with Catholic teaching.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
No, that's not what I said. What I said was, “Holy Mary is Mother of God.” (It contained 21 letters and was divided into six words.)Quote:
So you are saying that Mary conceived God?
Just to make it painfully clear, I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
It's not for sale.Quote:
I don't buy it.
So you hold that Mary gave birth to a human child we call Jesus who was later made (or who made himself) into a god? (That's what you say in the statement above)Quote:
Jesus did not change (Heb 13:8), but Mary conceived a baby, the flesh that in which Jesus manifested Himself (1 Tim3:16). Prior to this, though He was fully God into eternity past, He was not a man. When Mary conceived through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, He was manifested in the flesh and became fully man.
Mary conceived the flesh - she did not conceive God. God already existed.
Salve, Regina!
JoeT
Tj3,
For some reason your posts seem to say that you do not believe that "with God all things are possible."
You are saying that God could not be born of a woman named Mary, ye the bible clearly says that Mary gave birth ti Jesus Christ who was/is God the Son.
I find your post denying that silly and amazing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Yes, to deny that Jesus was born of a virgin and her name was Mary, is to deny part of the bible. To deny that Jesus is Lord and Saviour is to deny part of the bible.
And if we do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then there would be no real salvation coming from his death.
And if he is not True God, then there is no real Trinity.
A person can not really have it both ways, if Mary gave birth to Jesus and the bible tells us this is true, she was and is his mother.
Sadly arcura this sounds like almost cut and paste out of some of those "chick publications" that spew hate of many christian groups. Sadly too many groups have less teachings of their own and more teachings against other groups.
That is what YOU said. Scripture says that nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Good! Then I hope that you will understand that God was not conceived by Mary.Quote:
Just to make it painfully clear, I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
No I said nothing of the sort - reread.Quote:
So you hold that Mary gave birth to a human child we call Jesus who was later made (or who made himself) into a god? (That's what you say in the statement above)
Byut I note that you avoid the question that I asked. Let me ask it again:
You said:
"So we see key words such as conception, womb, birth, and the name Jesus. Concluding Mary gave birth. And we know that women that give birth are Mothers. "
Your (faulty) logic is:
- Mary is a mother
- Mary births God
- Mary is mother of God.
But scripture says more that that. It says that mary conceived Jesus!
Luke 2:21
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
KJV
So now using your (faulty) logic, we now have:
- Mary is a mother
- Mary conceives God
- Mary is mother of God.
So you are saying that Mary conceived God?
It is either that, or using your logic, you would be denying that Jesus was God since scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus.
Answer the question.
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Just because all things all possible with God, does not mean that God must do all things. That is a logic fallacy.
Scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus. Did Mary conceive God? Using your "logic", it is either that, or using your logic, you would be denying that Jesus was God since scripture says that Mary conceived Jesus.Quote:
You are saying that God could not be born of a woman named Mary, ye the bible clearly says that Mary gave birth ti Jesus Christ who was/is God the Son.
Joe apparently did not want to answer that question - can you?
Mary, according to scripture was the vessel through whom an eternally pre-existent God entered the world manifest in the flesh. She did not conceive God and thus was not the mother of God.
Catholic teaching (and some others) miss the fact of Jesus' HUMANITY. Jesus was NOT God in disguise, teaching and working as the Almighty, but rather as perfect man anointed by the Holy Ghost. The Son left Heaven to become ONE OF US, otherwise He could not have been the "kinsman redeemer". If He were not man, then His sacrifice on the cross would have been invalid. The sacrificial lamb had to be ONE OF THE FLOCK. He had to be human. If that were not so, then explain this part of His prayer to His Father:
John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)
This clearly shows that Jesus did NOT have that glory that He once had, and needed to have restored to Him. You fail to see the difference between The Son in Heaven, and The Son on Earth.
Jesus is not divided. Jesus is man and God. There is not one Jesus who is man and another who is God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Sure. Mary conceived God the Son in her womb. But Mary did not conceive Eternal God in her womb. That would be impossible by definition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb.
Here's the question for you, did God take flesh in her womb?
She did not create God. God is uncreated and eternal. But she did conceive God in her womb. Jesus, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity took flesh in her womb.Quote:
Mary, according to scripture was the vessel through whom an eternally pre-existent God entered the world manifest in the flesh. She did not conceive God and thus was not the mother of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes I can answer the question. But, just to be clear ask it again.
Salve, Regina!
JoeT
Tj3,
Perhaps you should star reading the bible fir what is says. It does tell us clearly that Mary us the mother of Jesus Christ the God/man not what you say.
For some reason you can not understand what the bible clearly says about that.
By denying that Mary is the Mother of God The Son you are denying that Jesus is divine.
It is a simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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