So anyone, everyone who is a non Catholic is not saved?
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So anyone, everyone who is a non Catholic is not saved?
The problem is, the first statement is false.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
The quote from the Catholic Alamanac, however, is true... but all that is saying is that if a person who KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS that the Catholic Church is the true Church and they REJECT that, well... those people can not be saved... but who in their right mind would walk away from a faith they personally believe to be true, right? It has nothing to do with non-Catholics.
"saintjoan" has apparently does not understand this and has made the false claim that ANYONE outside the Church can not be saved... and this is completely false:
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH (from Vatican II)
LUMEN GENTIUM #16
Scottrc,
Are you Catholic? My sister married a catholic; he was a wonderful man. I loved him. I went to her funeral. The first time I was in a Catholic church. I did not understand all the things they were doing.
Her daughter went to church with myself and my parents once, she had to do 'hail marys' or something for going to our church. She was spending the weekend with us, we were too young to stay home alone. why was she punished for doing that, when she had no choice?
Yep... and I work for the Church... and teach adults and children about the Catholic faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
Hehe... I'm a convert to the Church... and it took me a LONG time to figure out what the heck was going on!Quote:
My sister married a catholic; he was a wonderful man. I loved him. I went to her funeral. The first time I was in a Catholic church. I did not understand all the things they were doing.
The "normal" process for an adult converting to the Church (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults - RCIA) takes ONE YEAR... it's not exactly an easy faith to grasp if you didn't grow up with it.
What "denomination" of church did she attend with you and your family?Quote:
Her daughter went to church with myself and my parents once, she had to do 'hail marys' or something for going to our church. She was spending the weekend with us, we were too young to stay home alone. Why was she punished for doing that, when she had no choice?
I can only assume that it was a non-Catholic/non-Eastern Orthodox Church... and while I would personally not "punish" my kids for something like this (unless she was old enough to know better and participated in "communion" at the non-Catholic church --- that's a BIG no no) I can understand why her parents forced her to say prayers because of her attendance.
I obviously don't know them personally, but I can only guess that it was fear... they mistakenly thought your faith might "contaminate" her, so the prayers were forced upon her for her own "protection".
Again, not something I would personally do with my kids (two daughters 14 and 8) but parents make decisions for their children---- good and bad decisions---- and we can just pray that God leads them to the truth.
It is a hard faith to learn because when we became teenagers, we partied together, and they would say that they would have to go to confession tomorrow. My sister was a lot older than me and she had two sets of twins and another daughter in between, the same age as myself. I wasn't a Christian at the time and didn't understand this. It was like a joke everyone laughed about it.
The church we went to when I was little turned me against church, but later I learned that God wasn't like that, the way they preached... And received Jesus as my Lord. I do not believe as my parents did. They believed in God and were born again... but they believed in a harsh God and that religion has little respect for women.
I do not believe in religion. I believe in God and Jesus his Son and the Holy Spirit.
Peace and love in Christ.
I believe that we should work out our own salvation.
I am not sure if that's what you mean by earning it. ;)
What does it mean to work out our own salvation?
This is my take on "faith and works." Its posted under different titles here.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
The Vatican Council (III, 3) says that "faith is a supernatural virtue by which we with the inspiration and assistance of God's grace, believe those things to be true which He has revealed". I often think of works as a requitement of faith; or cooperation between faith and works. It takes both acceptance and cooperation with God's grace of Truth for salvation to be efficacious. Based on Scripture, it's not the nature of God to strike us dumb with an irresistible faith.
However, I find Catholic faith in God quite different from the 'struck by lightning' knowledge that waits for a predestined salvation. There are many Protestants that have this type of faith, i.e. once saved always saved. On the other hand, Catholics hold 'faith' in God to be those truths revealed by God in Scripture and in the Tradition of the Church (objective faith). Faith can also be those things we hold true that are beyond our understanding, but within the natural light of reason (subjective faith). This latter type of faith requires a supernatural strengthening of natural light. "Quid est enim fides nisi credere quod non vides?" (What is faith but belief without seeing?). In either event intellectual reasoning has an element of faith that requires participation.
We can't forget that the four gospels are first and foremost theology; not special codes of conduct like the Mosaic Law. Luther, like others, chose to turn away from the harmony in the scriptures substituting rationalism. But, reason outside the confines of apostolic teaching is bound to produce confusion that results in the denial of the oneness of faith. (Cf. John 17:9-10)
There are subtle Protestant deviations which miss the essence of the two natures of Christ, man and God; faith and works. Christ may have died for our sins, (an act of God's mercy), but he lived along with his mother and disciples not only to hear or speak the word of God, but to personify, “do it” – unquestionably a “work” as defined by most Protestant faiths. (cf Luke 8:21)
Christ not only lived the old covenant, he was a redeemed faith, marked with faith-blood that “worked” internally and externally. The word of God was grafted into his being as a Jew. Was not the Christ's crucifixion a “work” in the spirit of Yom Kippur, atonement for our sins? Forgiveness of sins was a unique concept hitherto unknown to the Jewish faith. Was it not Christ who lived the Jewish High Holydays of the Sukkuot (Tabernacles)? Was it not a “work” when Jesus transfigured before Peter, John and James. Was the procession to the temple where the people waived palms and shouted “Hosanna” a “work”? Being both the priest offering the sacrifice while simultaneously being the sacrifice. This single act transformed both heaven and earth; the old covenant did not have forgiveness of sin. (cf Lev. 17:11, Rom 3:25 and Heb. 8:7? Was it not Zechariah's vision on Rosh Hashoanah? During Rosh Hashanah the practice of Tahilikh (the casting off sins) was observed. The prophecy tells of God rising up a horn of salvation “to perform the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember His holy covenant” (a work). Couldn't we even say that Christ's birth in late December a “work” found in the Jewish Hanukah – the lighting of the menorah? Christ even waits till the feast of Hanukah to proclaim, “The Father and I are one.” (the light of the world). Jesus lived his faith and the traditions of his faith like no other man; obedient to the point of sweating blood, to the point of death.
When read with the apostolic teachings of the Catholic Church we can see that Christ lived and worked his faith both internally and externally. He didn't simply “believe” in God, he was a “doer” of God's words. So, it's no wonder that James gives us the same advice, “[W]ith meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.” (James 1:21-24.)
Jesus didn't come to the Jews and say, “I think: I believe: therefore I am - so follow me.” So, in our poor attempt to emulate Christ, Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. (cf Phil 2:12). In short live your faith; believing is simply not enough. And always "preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words” (St. Francis of Assisi)
JoeT
Yup; Joe got what I mean. We have to incorporate work to faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
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