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Luke 10:18 And 1161 he said 2036 unto them 846, I beheld 2334 Satan 4567 as 5613 lightning 796 fall 4098 from 1537 heaven 3772.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
Meaning of 2444
1) to be a spectator, look at, behold
a) to view attentively, take a view of, survey
1) to view mentally, consider
4098 metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation
satan = Example of evil
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Isa 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning...
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
That is what Jesus 'beheld'
Sndbay, I'm not sure what you are saying, is English your second language, I think you mean rebuking. I know you mean well, I just don't understand. No offense meant. :)
Sndbay, what does all the numbers mean, they don't relate to Strongs Concordance of the Bible, where are they from and what is the point you are trying to make? Cheers :)
Yeah I think it is Strong's too
yes I corrected the spelling error... on rebuke "please forgive me"Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
As for the numbers they refer the original Hebrew or Greek word of the scripture. Held in safe keeping by what is called The Massorah.
The Massorah. - Appendix to the Companion Bible
Very definitely apart of Strongs Concordance , and my point was just to show that we are told of the evil that satan puts before us. Our decision is to be friend satan in darkness or follow Christ in the Light = Law. That verse really puts the fact out there of how we are shown he is evil.
1 Corinthians 3 2 I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhadsen
In teaching the truths of the faith, the Church has frequently used simplistic terms which would help the uninitiate understand the custom more easily.
That is why heaven and hell have frequently been depicted as material places but they are spiritual truths. Going to heaven is being joined with God. God is Spirit. Not a place.
Yet it is much easier to envision heaven as a place than as a State of being.
The same with hell. Hell is not a place, it is the state of being in opposition to God for all eternity.
But since we are temporal beings, we envision hell more easily as a place of torment and fire.
What does that have to do with Purgatory?
Well, its easier for us to think of Purgatory as a place where punishment occurs for our sin for a certain amount of time. Yet, Purgatory is outside of time and space. How can time elapse there? It can't.
So, speaking of Purgatory in terms of time and space was simply for us to more easily grasp the concept of "temporal" punishment for sin as opposed to "eternal" punishment for sin (i.e. hell).
In recent years, the Church has changed this manner of speaking:
How to Get an Indulgence (This Rock: September 2006)
Sincerely,
De Maria
The problem is that scripture does not mention purgatory at all, and the doctrine denies the gospel, because if we can pay for even a small part of our sin, we could pay for it all, and Christ died on the cross in vain.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
The doctrine of purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9.
Basically all that does is cover 'Judgement day'
Where works will be burned up or refined but the believer will be saved
NO purgatory involved
Scripture does not mention purgatory explicitly. But Scripture describes purgatory frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
Apocalypse 20 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
What is St. Paul doing when he says?Quote:
and the doctrine denies the gospel, because if we can pay for even a small part of our sin, we could pay for it all, and Christ died on the cross in vain.
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
Why must we suffer in order to be glorified with Christ?
Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
2 2 Timothy 2 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
How does suffering in the flesh do away with sin?
1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:
1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.Quote:
The doctrine of purgatory contradicts 1 John 1:9.
On the contrary, it supports Purgatory. Cleansing us from iniquity is precisely what Purgatory does for us.
Sincerely,
De Maria
That is precisely what we call Purgatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
''judgment day'' does not require or involve
Temporal punishment
Does not categorize sins as venial and mortal
Does not imply something you have to atone or make up for
Why do you say that? Is there some resource upon which you are basing your information?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
That was not purgatory, but rather Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16). Nothing here suggest a fiery punishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Nothing about purgatory here. This is the resurrection of the dead.Quote:
Apocalypse 20 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Note that this speaks of works not speaking of people in fire.Quote:
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Note all of these refer to what he is suffering while alive in the flesh. Reading scripture in context does wonders at resolving this supposed claims.Quote:
What is St. Paul doing when he says?
I note that you ignored 1 John 1:9.
True. Nothing here about Abraham's bosom either. And Luke 16 also describes Purgatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Not yet. The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished Where were they for 1000 years?Quote:
Nothing about purgatory here. This is the resurrection of the dead.
Sins are works of straw.Quote:
Note that this speaks of works not speaking of people in fire.
But didn't you say that our suffering did not expiate sin, otherwise Christ died for naught. Do I have to quote you?Quote:
Note all of these refer to what he is suffering while alive in the flesh. Reading scripture in context does wonders at resolving this supposed claims.
And in this verse, St. Paul says he suffers for us filling in his flesh was was WANTING in Christ's.
So, please answer the question posed to you. How can St. Paul suffer for our sin?
How can we suffer for our sins as explained by St. Peter, he who suffers in the flesh CEASES with sin.
Is it perhaps that Jesus died on the Ctross to give us a model that we should follow in His footsteps. He suffered for our sins so that we could suffer for our sins as well?
1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.
Once you understand the teaching of vicarious suffering, you will understand the concept of expiation of sin, on this earth and in the next.
Matthew 12 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
No I didn't.Quote:
I note that you ignored 1 John 1:9.
I quoted it, bolded the words "cleanse us of sin" and explained that the verse substantiates the concept of Purgatory. It is in purgatory that those who die in an imperfect state of grace are "cleansed of sin".
Sincerely,
De Maria
Because then Jesus died for no reason. The Bible says that God casts our sins away as far as the East is to the West. Do you really believe that we walk around for years carrying our sins until Purgatory? Jesus said cast our burdens on him not walk around with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
We do not pay for our sins
Where is the fire? Where are people paying for their own sins? No, not at all. Not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Sigh! Did you notice that there were two resurrections? Did you notice that those who were saved were in the first resurrection. Those who were unsaved were in the second.Quote:
Not yet. The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished Where were they for 1000 years?
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV
So if I were to accept your argument, purgatory is only for the unsaved before they go to hell.
1 John 1:9 says that Jesus paid the price for ALL sins of those who are saved. The context is that straw are works not honoring to Christ - there is yet nothing about people going through fire to pay for their own sins.Quote:
Sins are works of straw.
So where does scripture say that we suffer to pay the rpcie for our own sin?Quote:
But didn't you say that our suffering did not expiate sin, otherwise Christ died for naught. Do I have to quote you?
I missed where it says that Paul suffered to pay the rpice for our sin. Please point that out to me.Quote:
So, please answer the question posed to you. How can St. Paul suffer for our sin?
24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What is happening to Dives? Why is he there being tormented in flames? Why does he want Abraham to send someone to his brothers?Quote:
Where are people paying for their own sins?
Are you sure? Now that I've pointed out the fire, please reread it.Quote:
No, not at all. Not even close.
Yes, I did. Did you notice that there were some people already given judgement before the first resurrection? They were already sitting on thrones.Quote:
Sigh! Did you notice that there were two resurrections? Did you notice that those who were saved were in the first resurrection. Those who were unsaved were in the second.
4 And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
No. You are misreading the Scripture. Not all in the first resurrection avoided the suffering of Purgatory. Only those listed. However, those who did not live for a thousand years were also part of the first resurrection.Quote:
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV
So if I were to accept your argument, purgatory is only for the unsaved before they go to hell.
In addition, you seem to have consigned all in the second part of this Scripture, all in the Second death, died and went to the pit of fire. But not all in the second group were part of the Second death. Many were part of the Second Resurrection.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne,
These were part of the Second Resurrection.
But the following:
and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.
Were part of the Second death.
You are reading a great deal into that Scripture:Quote:
1 John 1:9 says that Jesus paid the price for ALL sins of those who are saved.
1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Sins are not honoring to Christ. Therefore they are burned away. Divide the Word rightly. Remember that overly emphasizing the literal interpretation kills the Spirit of the Word:Quote:
the context is that straw are works not honoring to Christ - there is yet nothing about people going through fire to pay for their own sins.
2 Corinthians 3 6 Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth.
1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:Quote:
So where does scripture say that we suffer to pay the rpcie for our own sin?
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:Quote:
I missed where it says that Paul suffered to pay the rpice for our sin. Please point that out to me.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Read carefully - the person who said this was not in Abraham's bosom.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Luke 16:22-23
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV
Nothing about purgatory. I read all of your comments and still nothing which speaks of purgatory and nothing which says that 1 John 1:9 is in error. I undersdtand the part about the judgment and so on and so forth, and there is nothing which says that anyone pays for their own sins in purgatory, nor did any quote that you gave say so.Quote:
Yes, I did. Did you notice that there were some people already given judgement before the first resurrection? They were already sitting on thrones.
Quite a statement after reading how you read purgatory into everything!Quote:
You are reading a great deal into that Scripture:
Did you notice this line:Quote:
1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity
No some, not leaving some for us to cleanse ourselves from, but ALL.
I wasn't yet referring to the person in Abraham's bosom. But since you've brought it up again, where is Abraham's bosom?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And where is Dives? Consider the following, he is in a place of suffering where he can look at his fellow souls and cry out with affection saying, "Father Abraham!" and Father Abraham does not repudiate him but responds calling him "Son....".
Where is this man? Is that a description of the hell of the damned? Does any love exist in the abode of the damned?
What is "Hades"?Quote:
Luke 16:22-23
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
NKJV
Nothing about purgatory.
I never said 1 John 1:9 is in error.Quote:
I read all of your comments and still nothing which speaks of purgatory and nothing which says that 1 John 1:9 is in error.
But that is a typical Protestant confusion. You are confusing YOUR INTERPRETATION OF 1 JOHN 1:9 with the Scripture.
It is your interpretation of that verse which I contend is in error. Not the Scripture.
But you've ignored all my question concerning the verses where St. Peter and St. Paul both explain that we pay not only for our own sins but for each others.Quote:
I undersdtand the part about the judgment and so on and so forth, and there is nothing which says that anyone pays for their own sins in purgatory, nor did any quote that you gave say so.
And you still haven't addressed any of the questions I asked.Quote:
Quite a statement after reading how you read purgatory into everything!
Did anyone say that we cleanse ourselves from our sin in Purgatory? Who?Quote:
Did you notice this line:
he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity
No some, not leaving some for us to cleanse ourselves from, but ALL.
And it is Scripture which says that one who suffered in the flesh has ceased with sin and that St. Paul rejoices in his suffering for us. So please address those questions which I asked. How can we cease with sin by suffering in the flesh? And how can St. Paul rejoice in his suffering for us? Not only that but filling in his flesh that which is WANTING in the suffering of Christ?
You keep accusing me of ignoring your questions. But I've answered every one of them. Now its your turn. Answer my questions.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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