Logically - I suppose the first Gods would have been of the Sun, Water and the Earth (as in soil) - followed swiftly by fertility and other social necessities when man became a herder rather than hunter ending with the numerous collection of Gods of the hindus/egyptians/greeks/romans et al.

It seems that the Jews were the first to parcel this little bunch up into one all knowing "Almighty".

Next comes Jesus teaching to the poor and underpriveleged who because he made a bit of an impact was quickly hi-jacked by the "noble and wise". (I think the highest socially ranked actual desciple was the Tax Collector, wasn't he? ). As this Jesus had probably been dead for 2 or 3 hundred years they needed an "Image".
Luckily, by this time the Romans had taken dominance over the Greeks so the hi-jackers noticing a handy load of golden coloured statues around the place - left by the greeks - mounted then on Crucifixes and Hey Presto.
Small addendum to this story : These statues were of Helios the Sun God - hence your nice little "halo".

Next on the scene is Mohamed ( c.5 A.D.? Not sure and not interested enough to look up the exactities). Who believes in Jesus and his works - but only as a prophet. - He has seen what an unholy debacle the christians have made of things (The rift between RC and Orthodox) and goes back to just one "God". He in turn is declared a prophet and the Muslims are born.

(I'm not 100% sure of the Muslim story and any input by a believer is welcome)

The Christian Church in the meantime plodded on gloriously and became the domain of the aristocracy. ( 1st Son takes over the estates/titles etc; -
2nd Son goes to the Military and if there's a 3rd Son, he goes to the church and depending on Daddy's Rank becomes a Bishop, Archbishop or Cardenal).

I presume this could have been another reason for the rising of the Protestants who... (sorry about the next bit but can't resist the temptation) begat Lutherans, who begat Methodists, who begat Baptists, who begat... and so it went (and goes) on. Think of a clever twist and all you need is someone gullible to believe you and away you go - after all according the British author and traveller Capt. Marryat, who was around at the time, one of the originators of the Mormons was a convisted con artist. Sorry I can't remember which one but it is over 30 years since I read the book.

Finally, the Second Coming. He had better get his dates right, because if he came back now they would lock him up as a raving junky/pot head/crack head etc: Even if he'd arrived in McCarthy's time he'd have been locked up as a raving Commy.

Anyway a final message to you miriads of believers in miriads of religions who have all got one thing in common - only YOU and the believers in YOUR particular sect are going to enter the "Gates of Heaven". Ahhhh! If only your beliefs were true - I would love the see the faces of all those who had been paying their 10% to the Church and got the wrong one!!

Me?? - If you lot are right?? - I'll just pick up my shovel and head on down to the stoke hole with the rest of my pals. It would drive me crackers up there with you lot quoting religion all day.

So - Why am I posting in the Religion Section?? Like you I have also seen the light and am trying to show you the error of your ways. (and save you some time and money into the bargain - after all - I don't pass around the collection tray after my Sermon:D

First off, isn't Jesus quoted in the Bible saying that we are no different than He? That we are capable of the same acts as He? (Im sorry, I have studied the Bible but finding a specific verse will be difficult and Im sure that you who are well versed in the Bible (no pun intended) could pinpoint it better than I)

Also, are we not "all powerful, all wise, all understanding, all present, all knowing plus infinite and eternal"? It may not appear so now, but what about when our Earthly bodies parish? Doesn't the Bible also say that once we enter Heaven, we will know these things? Do we just BECOME these all knowing souls or are we now but we are limited by Earthly and Human Laws?

Were we not created from God?

I suppose part of the difference in our thinking is how we define God. Personally, I don't think that God is personified. God is. God is as you claim... God is the positive and the negative... God is Jesus... God is Satan... God is Man... God is all.

That doesn't necessarily mean that all is God... but all is created of God. However, in our purest form, wouldn't we be that which is God?

How can God know the Perfect Hour? God is the Perfect Hour. God doesn't have a brain. He is the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... and Everything in between.

(BTW, I am not, in anyway, disagreeing with any of you. I respect each of your opinions and beliefs. I have never really had the chance to discuss these things because most of my friends are not willing to engage in any of these discussions lol. These are all things that I have pondered and have been swarming around in my head. I really like hearing your feedback.)

(Oh, I also wanted to say that when I capitolize pronouns, I don't mean it in a negative way... I wasn't exactly sure what you were getting at with that pumpkin lol. I capitolize a lot of pronouns to show importance and respect, I suppose.)

To Jonegy,

You bring up some interesting points. I am not well versed in History. You may be right, you may be wrong in some of your points. It doesn't matter to me.

I had thought that God/faith/religion was all just a bunch of bull... a way to control the masses. I was fairly content in those beliefs for some time. But there was one thing wrong with my thinking... one thing I could not figure out. The only thing that I couldn't pin down was a presence within me... the presence of God. You can call it social brainwashing, you can call it psychosis, you can call it whatever you want. But I think that we all feel it. Many of us choose to deny it because it doesn't coincide with our beliefs... but it is there.

My search since I have accepted this is simply to get to know myself better. If you have actually read the posts here, you may have realized that I do not claim any religion. I am certain that religion has been corrupt from the very beginning. It hasn't changed to this day. But its not about reliegion... its about what's in you... who you really are. Its so undeniable now...

Remember When Peter Called Jesus The Messiah? Jesus Told Him This Was Revealed To Him By The Father In Heaven. Bear In Mind That "emanuel" In Hebrew Means "god Be With Us."

Ok, I confess, I've not read all of this so my piping in is just a response to the initial question: "Did Jesus say he was God".

I did search this thread and see that John 20:28-29 is not mentioned:

Thomas said to [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

So there Jesus affirms that Thomas believes correctly: That He is God.

Jonegy,
With all due respect your version of religious history is a mess. That comes from your statement "I suppose". Supposing causes some of the biggest errors in religion and what it is all about.

Jesus was not hi-jacked by the noble and wise. His followers ranged from ignorant common folks like fishermen, publicans and tent makers to a few people of high rank. While his apostles numbered but 12 his disciples were a great many more.
Many of those IN THEIR LIFETIME founded churches as far way as in Rome itself, Britannia in the West to India in the East and Africa in the south.
By the way Rome was in control of the Holy land long BEFORE the birth of Christ.
From what fantasy did you get the story of the crucifix? That was funny. LOL.

Your date for Mohammed of "5.A.D???" was a little off… Mohammed founded Islam in 622 A.D. You missed it by just 6 centuries.

Christendom was made up primarily of the common people who far out numbered the aristocracy, over several 1000 to 1.

Yes the Church did break up into several sects but please note that they have far far more similarities in belief than differences.

As far as the second coming is concerned when Jesus returns there will be no possibility of the picture you paint.

Your assumption that each different denomination thinks that only their members will go to heaven is not correct. Only a few of the smaller groups claim that.

In your final paragraph you claim to have seen the light. It appears that the light you saw was very dim and flickering.
Rather than showing us the error of out ways, as you claim, you have shown us the errors of your thinking, religious knowledge, and history.
You have a lot of studying ahead of you if you ever want to get it right.
Peace and kindness,:) :) :)
Fred

Stony,
Very good point. Thanks!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Rickj,
Very good point. Thanks!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Your date for Mohammed of "5.A.D???" was a little off… Mohammed founded Islam in 622 A.D. You missed it by just 6 centuries.

---

Aw come on. Six centuries is nothing in geological time. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

Jonegy,
With all due respect your version of religious history is a mess...
..It appears that the light you saw was very dim and flickering.
Rather than showing us the error of out ways, as you claim, you have shown us the errors of your thinking, religious knowledge, and history.
You have a lot of studying ahead of you if you ever want to get it right.
Peace and kindness,:) :) :)
Fred

---

Reminds me of the saying my cousin states this time of year during Lent (tongue in cheek.. its satire, folks)

"Yeah, way to ruin Easter, Jesus"

Kp21871,
It please me that you found so much joy in my post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Hi Fred (Arcura)

My "supposing" was based on "supposings" of higher authorities than I.

The whole "New Testament" as such is a "supposition", based on the opinions of theologians, scholars and interpreters.

The earliest known dated papyrus directly translatable to the New Testament (the John Ryllands) was written in 125 - 130 AD and the earliest known "Patristic" writings ( Clement's ) have been dated at 95 AD ( another opinion or supposition? ) and from what I understand of these writings, are purely to found the authority of the "Elders" of the church.

The Greek Empire extended out to modern day India in the east and remains from this era are even being unearthed today, hence, the theory of the Helios is not mine but of archealogists who recognised the similarity of the ancient statues with the early crucifixes.

Sorry about the "typo" error referring to Mohamed. It should have read "500" of course and not "5". I think however that the majority of people know that Mohamed was not a contemporary of Jesus and that the context of my post showed this.

Yes Fred - the common people outnumbered the autocracy by 1000 to 1 much as they do today but it is the those in authority that rule and it is their lives and actions that are handed down through history. ( Do you honestly believe that in a hundred years time, history will show that the British Government went to war against the wishes of 85% of its electorate )... Thinking on, that fellow Clement comes to mind here ;)

Finally Fred, you use the Bible and it's quotations for your "proof". The Bible can be used to say/prove just about anything. "an eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek" being one of the most quoted examples - even the churches own scholars can't agree on how many people wrote the Gospel of St John but apparently it was at least three. In other postings I've seen the theologians, scholars and interpreters as being deluded in their findings... but I must ask you to remember that it was these same people that composed the " King James Version " that is used for so many "quotations".
You may be able to help me with one of those quotations - we were taught in one of those Sunday School stories... " and Jesus said "Where two or more are gathered in my name - there is my church". which leads to one big contradiction ...... Why is so much money being wasted on buildings, their up keep and the clergy ??????

Oh well - Happy days and in the words of that great Irish comedian Dave Allan ...............
"May your God go with you"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonegy

The earliest known dated papyrus directly translatable to the New Testament (the John Ryllands) was written in 125 - 130 AD and the earliest known "Patristic" writings ( Clement's ) have been dated at 95 AD ( another opinion or supposition? ) and from what I understand of these writings, are purely to found the authority of the "Elders" of the church.

---

This is precicely why many who are in the know about ancient texts (including non-Christians) consider the writings of the NT more reliable than other ancient texts that have come down to us.

Nowhere in this period do we find other copies of ancient works dated so close to the time the work was originally written.

Jonej,
Some of those so-called authorities ignore the fact that documents which have survived to this day refer to other earlier documents long lost, in many cases do to deterioration. The copies we have of the gospels are just that. Copies of the earlier originals.
As for your bible quote, I have 8 different versions of the bible and none of them say what you have written. Most of them use these words, "Matthew 18: 20. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." NONE of them say there is my CHURCH.
Jesus was speaking of a personal spiritual presence.
When I think of my parents and discuss them with my brother, though they have passed away they are spiritually there with us, if in no other way than in memory. Do you understand that thought?
Personally I believe that Jesus is with us much more than in memory only.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Hi,
I also believe Jesus is with us, in much more than just a memory. He is with us all the time, around us, and giving those of us who have been Baptized, peace and blessings.

fredg,
Your last line remends me of the quote by Saint Teresa of Avila, "Never worry. Never Fear. All things are passing. Only God matters."
And another, but who coined it I do not know, "If you think you can or if you think you can't, either way you are right."
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

It might seem as if Christians have always accepted the Trinitarian doctrine without questioning it but that is far from being the case. The official Catholic Church decision that Jesus was God was reached approximately three-hundred years after Jesus died and even then there were millions of Christians who did not agree with the Nicene Council. Later they decided to add the holy spirit. In short, their original idea was to have just Jesus and his father as one God then they changed their minds. As for the scriptures that were and are still used to support that idea, they are not what they seem.

For example, the scripture that says "I and the father are one" is often used to prove Jesus was claiming to be God. What Trinitarian scholars ignore is that Jesus also said that we his followers should be one in the same manner as Jesus and the father. Does that mean that every Christian is physically one with every other Christian? Or does it simply mean instead that we should be in agreement as Jesus and God are in agreement?


Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And again the Father of Jesus is called God, not Jesus but his father.

There is also an ignoring of the difference between there Greek word of 'heis' (masc.) which means; 'Numerical one' and 'hen' (neut.) which means means 'Unity - in purpose'. Since the word that John uses is "hen" unity of purpose was meant. (Strong's #1520).
But of course this too is never brought to our attention by those who know.

Pro-Trinitarian scholars also ignore the scripture that that tells us Jesus objected when he was called good and said that only God was good. Surely if Jesus were God he would not have objected to being called good..

They also gloss over the fact that Jesus repeatedly referred to his father as his God.
Which brings up the very interesting question of: Does God worship God? If Jesus is God, how can he worship himself? We aren't just talking of Jesus in the flesh. Even after glorification when he sent his angel to John to deliver the Revelation he spoke about worshiping his God and being in the temple of his God. But of course this also is shunted aside as if of no consequence.


Then there is the mistranslation of the text which says "I am" Which of course is more accurately translated as "I have been" or "I have existed." But this is conveniently ignored and translated as "I am" in order to link it to God's statement to Moses.


We also have that notorious additional text appended to the Gospel of John which mentions Father Son and Holy Ghost. This addition is often cited as conclusive evidence. However, the text is strongly suspected as being spurious or a much later addition by Trinitarians scholars themselves.

But the favorite is John 1:1. which would seem to clinch the argument on the Trinitarian side. Fortunately, there are honest open-minded Christian scholars of the Greek language spoken in Jesus' day. These tell us that the words "was God" should have been translated differently, as for example, "was divine, or "was godlike" Actually, the words are followed by the apostle John's statement that no-one has ever seen God at any time and that Jesus revealed God's personality to men-a statement that can only make sense if Jesus is not God.

Another glaring inconsistency is that Trinity doctrine demands equality among the three godheads. Yet Jesus said that the Father was greater and even the early Christians understood it that way since they referred only to the Father as the only true God.


1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Also when Peter answered Jesus' question as to whom did he think he was, and Peter said the Christ, Son of the living God. Jesus responded said that God had revealed this to Peter. He did not say: "Well, yes, but, remember, I am also God." in order to clarify the matter because no further additions to Peter's description were needed.

Here are some links for those who wish to further research the subject:

http://www.mostmerciful.com/notgod--1-7.htm

http://www.themodernreligion.com/com.../jesus_god.htm

http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/708

Please keep in mind that it has taken many years for theological understanding of Scripture to mature. It was an on going effort back then.
Even the immediate apostles of Jesus sometimes did not understand well what said or taught.
Some folks are still struggling with it yet today.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Mr. Starman,
If You Read In Gen. It Speaks Of God Creating Mankind. "let Us Create Man In Our Own Image." The "us" And "our"
In That Statement Make It A Corporate Decision Between The Father, Son And Holy Spirit As To The Creation Of Mankind.

Very good point Dr.Jizzle! Those are all different aspects of GOD along with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STONY

Mr. Starman,
If You Read In Gen. It Speaks Of God Creating Mankind. "let Us Create Man In Our Own Image." The "us" And "our"
In That Statement Make It A Corporate Decision Between The Father, Son And Holy Spirit As To The Creation Of Mankind.

---

Well Mr. Stony, the plural prounoun "us" and the possessive plural prounoun "our" indicate more than one. So when I read them I understand more than one- God and Jesus. You understand one, God. So I guess we differ on this. Which doesn't mean that I feel that you aren't in good standing with God. It just means that I differ with you on that point.

Furthermore, the Israelites who were God's chosen people for centuries and through whom God revealed himself via inspiration, and the sending of angels were never told that God was three in one.

There Is One Yahweh, Who Created All Things

Ps. 83:18 "Let them know that thou alone, whose name is Yahweh, art the Most High over all the earth" (RSV).

Neh. 9:6 "Thou art Yahweh, thou alone; thou hast made the heavens, the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; ..." (RSV).

Neither do I have any biblical reason to accuse God of misinforming or misleading his people for thousands of years. Neither does the NT say that he did. In fact, the Hebrew scriptures are included in the Bible specifically because they are considered God's Word.
So to say that they are deficient or misleading in any way is a grave error.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; NKJV

BTW

The Elohim part of your argument answered at the following site.

http://halleluyah.org/Elohim%20Singu...r%20Plural.htm

Excerpt:

"Elohim. G-d, gods, judges, angels.. . The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of G-d. This is seen in the fact that the noun 'elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.. . The term occurs in the general sense of deity some 2,570 times... by Harris, Archer, & Waltke; Moody Press, Chicago; 1980, Vol. 1; Article: Elohim; page 44, #93c).

The answer to the question I will state again...

Jesus is not God. God is the Alpha & the Omega. In the Holy Trinity there is God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus always was with the Father as implied by one person here with the plural about in God's image. Entonce, the Word became Flesh. Entiende? So Jesus has all power & authority given to him by the Father.( On earth and in heaven) So Jesus is Lord.
The new Testament accounts are 55 years written A.D.
Check it out @ allabouttruth.com


I still love you though. Happy Easter ~

Correction to my previous post:

It's allabouttruth.org ( not. Com)

Absolutely, Jesus is God!! No question about it.

To Mrs. Pennell,
It appears that theologians spend so much time trying to study God that they never have the time to get to know Him. Very sad really! Do you want to know what God is like? Just read how Jesus dealt with the various people that He ministered to. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Forget the theologians and simply read the Bible with an open mind. It is the most reasonable book ever written!