 |
I understand that, but I think the one line is the part that people are interpreting to be against them... when actually it can be interpreted to be for them...
Does heaven have a religion? Is it Catholic, Protestant, Luthern..
If the ideal heaven existed on earth, what would we have then?
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
No, that song had no business being played in a room full of people who have been taught to be 'religious' at all. If people go to church to learn intolerance and exclusivity, it is quite wrong.
We are all one. Ours is not a better way, merely a different way.
----------------------- I finally see what you are saying. After going and waking up my Catholic school teacher girlfriend who studied this in her courses at university and asking her about it, you are very right. It does simply mean no particular religion or maybe one religion with out a label. Basically gods way, anyone involved in any religion that has faith that their concept is the right concept should enjoy the song even more in their church. This is incredibly hard to put into perspective. Maybe some sleep will do me some good and I can clarify what I'm trying to say. But I do think it would still bring headaches to a church. Through trying to explain it. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by oneguyinohio
Sometimes I think Science should study my head. I really mean that.
Aside from no religion and no heaven and hell... It is one of the most beautiful songs and the meaning (the meaning that I get from it) is even more beautiful.
And I can maybe even stretch it, grant you a great deal, and say, if I were sitting in a pew at church, it wouldn't floor me at all.
The message is beautiful.
It is saying - (and I know you all know what it is saying but I am just trying to explain my view)
It is saying, Imagine there is nothing at all to differ about or fight over, but Imagine living in nothing but peace, Isn't that what we are taught that heaven actually is. In heaven there is no fighting, nothing but love and peace and that is what is behind the song.
When he says, imagine there is no heaven or hell... I think he is saying, nothing to differ about, meaning some say there is a heaven, some say there is not, nothing to disagree about. Not that we can run around willy nilly without any recourse just that he was removing anythng to disagree about.
I don't think it was anti anything... it actually was pro... pro love and peace. Isn't that what is taught inside and outside church doors.
I wouldn't be offended or even shocked. I'd probably still be singing it on the way home from the services, with a good peaceful feeling in my heart.
Sometimes ( in general... in life)... we hold a beaufiul flower in our hands, and slowely remove the petals one by one "to analayze it" and before you know it all the petals are gone along with the beauty.
I agree with you,, very difficult to explain. It is a difficult mental problem to comprehend the context and analyze that in relationship to doctrine... certainly a higher level cognitive ability that is further complicated with personal biases especially when more than one meaning can be arrived at... "no religion" throws up RED FLAGS for sure... but if the statement is considered to mean "no religion to devide us" to make us fight... to make us live or die for... it can have a much different meaning without being offensive to people... and not meaning there should be no belief in spiritual things...
In a church, as in society, there will be people operating at different levels of thought... not to say that one is better than another... but only that the difference exists, which I think is why the song can send up a great meaning for one, but at the same time, be inappropriate to another person. That was my reason for not casting judgement on the person who decided to present it in church. Can't assume anything about their intent, but would hope it was purely positive.
I too had a difficult time in trying to formulate my thoughts around the issue, as an explanation of the original question. I finally had to go to bed, waking up a couple of times with a headache... thinking about how to express my thoughts clearly... so, I easily understand how it would be very difficult to present that perspective to an assortment of people at a church with varied views so as not to alienate anyone.
Amazing how even a song can cause a rift between people in a church. I'm hoping that the original poster might share my thoughts about this with others at the church who may have been offended.
I can't stop singing that song. :)
You know, I was thinking, I would love to live in a world, and I'm sure we all would, as John describes.
John, you may have been a dreamer, but what a lovely dream, and wherever you are not, I hope that dream has come true. Thank you for that beautiful song.
------------------------------------------Quote:
Originally Posted by oneguyinohio
I agree.
I will have to respectfully disagree then. The day mankind manages to attain a world without the problems that motivate us like hunger, political strife, etc, then that is the day we stop improving. It is human nature to "overcome", but look at your own lives today... is there ever a desire of any kind to improve your life in the areas you're quite content with?
Anyway, acknowledging the "truth" that there's no heaven/hell (?) would pretty much be the last straw on earth if that became universally believed. Without something to feel beholden to greater than ourselves, man is NOT a natural peacemaker.
Agreed, some dummies in history use religion as a basis for evil actions, but eliminating the concepts of God and right/wrong goes down the drain with it. We will always need someone greater than ourselves to motivate us to be our best.
No countries... no nationalism, patriotism, oh the loss there.
Well I, for one, don't need such a thing. If you need to believe in that to motivate you then good for you. We're all individuals, you can't speak for all the people on this earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBeaucaire
The song I nice but it's really not appropriate 4 church ;]
You know... I actually agree with your first paragraph. Man learns from mistakes. If we lived in a world of peace, there is no way to make mistakes because a mistake is labeled as wrong. Wow. It's amazing how many different views can come from a simple song. I was all for it's a great song and wouldn't that be amazing but if you really think about it, world peace would stop all growth. Not to mention all the lawyers that would be out of work. Ha ha. All in all it is still a good song.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBeaucaire
As far as your second paragraph:
First off, I am an atheist, so I have the hardest time understanding why christians need the reassurance that there is something greater out there. I am one of those people that believe, when you die you rot in the ground and that's it. No spirit, no heaven/hell, nothing. I would love to believe in something like heaven but I can't do it. I guess I am too much of a realist and can not see something like a beautiful perfect place where everyone is always happy and nothing bad ever happens.
Also, why do you need the concept of a God to have morals? People don't need a higher power to motivate them to strive to be perfect. Doing right and wrong is common sense. Its human nature.
:o
The day mankind manages to attain a world without the problems that motivate us like hunger, political strife, etc, then that is the day we stop improving.
I must have stayed up too late last night because I don't follow the logic of saying that we need to have problems in the world so that we can improve... so imagining a world where all of the problems have been solved is wrong?
Does that mean we should just quit working to solve them because if we get them all solved we will have done something bad??
In that case, why try? Seems ridiculous.
If no mistakes were made and no problems existed, then how would people learn knew things? Mistakes, which cause problems, have to be made before something new and better can be created. Trial and error is what makes the world go round. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by oneguyinohio
Oneguy, you're question at the end assumes a conclusion I'm not even remotely suggesting. That's your conclusion. Personally, I dismiss any real belief that religion/nationality/social need will ever go away. It's part of civilization. I'm saying that man improves as a result of dealing with his disagreements. We also mess up through them, too, which is your side and the side of the song.
This is a mental exercise, only.
Margarita, atheism aside, the reasons people (not just Christians) need a sense something greater is because without SOME basis of accountability built into people's thought process, they can rationalize ANYTHING. And they do. If you don't do this, this does put you in the minority. The forum alone is full of people with problems brought on by no sense of consequence beyond what they want and feel.
So, I can't find a basis to agree with your position thet "People don't need a higher power to motivate them to strive to be perfect. Doing right and wrong is common sense. Its human nature." Looking around I have to conclude that doing wrong is common nature, in that when the chips are down, self-preservation will rule.
Man strives to be more than his animal nature dictates, and that is awesome. Most simply can't do it by instinct, which is where civilization comes back in. Laws, morals, rules, authority, listening to parents or God, these concepts exist only in mankind. They are backstops that help us to resist our natures and do "actual" right, at least in terms of doing what is best for all, not just self.
It's a debate, I know. Just know that I think on the end we have the same goals. I'm just of the belief they are more likely attained with some sense of accountability outside of ourselves, and you believe it can come from our own inner moral center. In that, only time will prove out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by margarita_momma
How many abused children are there in this world? How many missing? How many murdered? God didn't do this to these innocent children. Human nature did. God gives everyone a mind and lots of people can turn an ordinary mind into a very depraved mind. God didn't force them to look at and read about evil all day, but some people sure do it. And when their own depraved minds lead them to do the horrible things that they do to innocent children, then they will have to pay for their evils, if not in this world then in hell.
We have a choice of heaven or hell, plain and simple.
You're are right. People don't need a higher power to motivate them. They need the right higher power to motivate them. Jesus Christ. I remember, not too long ago, a loving group of people followed a higher power that they believed would lead them to perfection. Jim Jones.
I'm sorry that people don't want there to be a heaven, but I can understand it, because if they believed in heaven they would have to believe in hell.
I could never 'imagine'there was no heaven or hell. I know there is, and just choosing to say there isn't--won't change a thing.
Many people do not have to be threatened with eternal damnation to be kind to each other. It is our design to change, to grow. Disbelief in hell or in heaven will not stop the design's progress. Only those truly afraid, needing to be told what is right and wrong, yours and mine, up and down, would be frightened of the concepts presented in the lyrics.
Nice point.
Some pretty great responses if I say so myself :)
I think she sung the song just to tell people in church to be as one, bring peace.
But... She should have sang Let there be peace on earth :-P *drum/symbol noise*
Well, lets break it down. The song talks about imagining having world peace and harmony, no hunger, no wars in the name of "religion" (one of your bigger war causes) and living in "the now". How can this be bad? My God would imagine this would be good too.
Yes let's break it down.
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Christians are not to imagine there is no Heaven. Heaven is our final destination. Heaven is an essential part of Christianity. In my opinion, it would not be appropriate to sing this song in church. Church music should be solid in doctrine and a prayerful reflection. This song is not that.
That is the problem with Christianity. It is so exclusive. Believe what I believe or you are out and hell bound. There is no room for independent thinking. That is what I was referring to when I said "MY God," the Holy Spirit that I believe is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and all that is good. I guess you could say that this song IS un-appropriate for a Christian Church since the Christian belief is one of a very narrow view. It equates their belief with fact for everyone.. I was raised as a Christian, have always been identified as a Christian but I really dislike any religious group to dictate my heart and tell me what I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:11 AM. |