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I don't mean to be sarcastic, but maybe it's because they believe 'our Father' is going to torture them for eternity anyway. What's a little ranting and raving compared to what you so gladly accept to be in store for non-believers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I'm sorry Lob - I don't understand what your saying. Forgive me. And you may have misunderstood what I said.
I was not directing it to anyone, and honestly I don't really see the ranting and raving in this thread, but did you ever come across those that have the bible in one hand, and scream that those who don't accept Jesus are going to hell, that gays are doomed. But it's not done in a loving way, it's done in an angry way. That is what I was referring to.
I am sorry that I wasn't understanding your thoughts. I don't gladly accept what is in store for non-believers, I honestly don't even let my mind go there. I pretty much am trying to clean my act up so I can more easily do right the it be such a struggle. And when I pray more and remember what is important, it is so much easier.
Does that make sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hi Ex -
I see it just a tad different. I see it as we all are veiwed as sinners... or to use a more generalized word... we all fall and make mistakes, So in truth, God sees and loves us all just the same.
I don't think God wants us to bow down to Him, but I do believe he wants us not to put money, material things, majic and any false things of worship before him. He also wants us to obey Him. Why? The same reasons our parents didn't want us to give into peer pressure (could be subsittuted for false gods) and the same reasons they wanted us to obey them... because they were desperately trying to teach us right from wrong and to go against that more then likely would bring harm to us or pain.
Our Father loves us and yes, wants us to obey his ways and know and spread his love but not because He is egotistical, but because He is loving and wants to keep us from harm.
I more then respect your beleifs Ex - as well as everyone else's and never want to shove my beleifs on anyone.
By me coming here and posting it helps to reaffirm my beleifs and make them stronger.
This isn't really the problem you seem to think it is. The Christian belief system is what tells you that you NEED saving, so people who don't have that, don't have the need. Since you're offering a solution to a problem they don't have, it shouldn't surprise you if they aren't interested in hearing you go on about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
Anyway, the original question wasn't whether they could be saved, it was whether they could do good.
It is the problem GOD Says It Is and who could know Better! People who don't have a Christian belief system should reconsider why they don't and then move to align themselves with the ONLY system that can offer them Salvation. To hesitate on that is akin to seeing a car rushing towards you and not moving to the other side to try to save yourself and simply allow the car to hit you, knowing the consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
And who says not all are interested in hearing what I have to say, but better yet said, what SCRIPTURE has to say about this. Many former un-believers have been Saved and have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior after hearing The Word of God. So, it IS possible to those who truly care about their soul and spirit before they pass on. Of course, to those who do not, no amount of discourse is going to change their mind but then again, they do not wish to see the Light of God, feel His Love and be at Peace with complete Tranquility in the first place when they finish their Earthly life. They obviously are telling us they prefer the darkness where God does not exist and the suffering that inevitably takes place where Jesus is not to grant them Salvation. That is highly disappointing and so many of us are trying to show them a way out of that way of thinking so they may be able to have Jesus Save their soul and spirit when the time comes.
About the original quotation, I answered that. People can indeed do good even if they are not Christians but again, that is not going to bring them Salvation which is something they need to seriously consider. The main issue of being Saved should not be confused or obfuscated by sliding into another area that literally helps no one in that kind of situation. Good should always be done by ALL. But if that is what the non-Believer is looking at trying to use that as a ticket to Heaven when their time comes, then the 'train conductor' going there is going to tell them that their ticket has expired and they need a New Pass. Let's hope people stop to think about this important matter and the dire consequences before it is too late for them. What if they had only a day left to live and they knew there was a difference in where they would end up for eternity? I would like to believe that many would go on Faith by accepting Jesus Christ into their life to try to Save their soul and spirit in the end as should be.
You said you didn't understand why some Christians throw bible verses at non-believers. I'm just pointing out that people who REALLY believe others are headed for such a revolting eternal torture chamber, that throwing biblical verses around doesn't seem too unreasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
I get that being saved is the main issue for YOU. But there is no way you can make it be the main issue for somebody who doesn't share your belief system. Sorry for your angst.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
I certainly hope so 'cause I try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kick277Jen
And I am truly sorry also that you have freely chosen darkness and desolation without Salvation instead of Light with Love and Peace and Happiness in Heaven. Because you were created by God, may God help you to see the Light in this important situation before it's too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
I would certainly appreciate it and I would thank the fireman and then I would thank God.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I would still thank him. And I would still thank God for permitting him to save my loved one.Quote:
But what if you learned that fireman was an atheist?
No, he didn't do anything that could save him for eternity. Remember, HE doesn't believe in God. Therefore, HE DOESN'T CARE about living in eternity with God.Quote:
All of a sudden he didn't do good by God, huh?
For instance, lets say that fireman were you. Did you save that person's life because you cared about God? No? Then why do you want God to save you for eternity?
Ex-Con understands atheism exactly right. He says, Who cares what your god thinks? I ain't interested. .... Nope. I'm trying to do good in the sight of ME.
Or what are you saying here Lob? Do you mean that you want God to take your deeds into account? Yet you don't take His deeds into account? How is that fair?
So, the question is very simple. If you don't believe in God, why do you care if He is pleased by your deeds?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Samaritans are believers.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
The Samaritans (Hebrew: שומרונים Shomronim), known in the Talmud as Kuthim (Hebrew: כותים), are an ethnic group of the Levant. Ethnically, they are descended from a group of Israelite inhabitants that have connections to ancient Samaria from the beginning of the Babylonian Exile up to the beginning of the Common Era. The Samaritans, however, derive their name not from this geographical designation, but rather from the term שַמֶרִים (Shamerim), “keepers [of the law]”.[citation needed] Religiously, they are the adherents to Samaritanism, a religion based on the Torah. Samaritans claim that their worship (as opposed to mainstream Judaism) is the true religion of the ancient Israelites, predating the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.
Samaritan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't think anyone denied that "non-believers" could do good. Only that non-believers could do good in the sight of God.Quote:
... a perfect example of how "non-believers" can also do good.
There's a difference. If a believer does good in the sight of God, then his deed will be accounted towards his salvation:
Matthew 10 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man.
Matthew 16 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.
But, without faith, it is impossible to please God:
Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.
So, if a non-believer does good in the sight of men and in his own sight, he has received his reward. He has received the applause of men and the feeling of pride that comes along with doing something which pleases men and self. But this deed is not counted towards his eternal salvation since he does not believe in eternal salvation which only comes from the God whose existence he denies.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Sorry - I should have said... "harshly try and force".
Additionally, while they are trying to "jam" God's love down the throats of the "poor souls destined for hell" should they not be tending to their own internal house as well?
I could almost lay money down that there were times that God was pleased 5x as much
with a non-believer's brotherly love and giving soul then myself, a beleiver, who sins and whose sins hurts our Heavenly Father.
So, you see, I don't understand nor do I see God's love in harsh words spoken trying to "force" someone to see the error of their ways.
And how much more noble is a good deed done for no other reason than the goodness of the deed and to help someone? Not because of wanting a reward or out of fear from punishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
It's not about me caring if God is pleased, it's about what Christians think. Sometimes I think I have more respect for the god you worship than you do. You are basically saying that even if one performs a tremendous deed or heroic act for the sake of a Christian (one of God's children), that this person has not done good in the sight of god. What kind of merciless, contemptuous being do you think god is?Quote:
So, the question is very simple. If you don't believe in God, why do you care if He is pleased by your deeds?
I have chosen no such thing, but I do thank you for displaying your self-righteous presumption so clearly and unambiguously. You perform a valuable service for those who may be hesitant or undecided.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyGem
Wow, a Christian I can respect! You are in a very rare minority. Most Christians I know have the same typical view of someone like De Maria who states in no uncertain terms: "It's impossible to please God without faith".Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
But to be honest, I don't understand your thinking here. Again, if I really believed that over half the people on the planet were destined to spend eternity in a fiery torture chamber, I'd be one of those guys you see on the street corner preaching and wearing a sign. How can it not be the right thing to do to get the word out and do everything humanly possible to save people from such a horrendous fate?Quote:
So, you see, I don't understand nor do I see God's love in harsh words spoken trying to "force" someone to see the error of their ways.
A loving hug and mutually respectful conversation go a long way.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I do understand what you are saying... in there minds they are "desperate" to save everyone. I just don't feel that is there true motivation and may God forigive me for saying that. If it were, they would stop there shouting, and take time to listen. Just my opinion.
Lol!! I must have struck a nerve. A lot of double talk but no answer to the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Why do you want a nonexistent being to count the goodness of your deeds?
I didn't say anything about wanting a reward or fear of punishment. I said faith. What does faith mean to you?Quote:
Not because of wanting a reward or out of fear from punishment.
No. It doesn't matter what we think.Quote:
It's not about me caring if God is pleased, it's about what Christians think.
In fact, you have derailed the question. The question is whether a nonChristian can do good in the eyes of God.
I have answered that a nonChristian can do good in the eyes of God. But a nonbeliever can't. Or at least not any good that will count towards his salvation.
That's because you don't understand the God I worship. You want to be saved by God but you don't want to pay the price of faith in God. That simply means you want to make up your own religion.Quote:
Sometimes I think I have more respect for the god you worship than you do.
But, let me ask point blank, are you saying you believe in God?
If he does it for his own sake, that is correct.Quote:
You are basically saying that even if one performs a tremendous deed or heroic act for the sake of a Christian (one of God's children), that this person has not done good in the sight of god.
I think God is a wonderful loving being who takes care of those who love Him. I think God wants all to be saved but He does not coerce them. And I think God respects YOUR decision. If you don't want anything to do with God in this life, that is proof that you want nothing to do with Him in the next.Quote:
What kind of merciless, contemptuous being do you think god is?
So, answer the question. If you don't believe in God, why do you care if He is pleased by your deeds?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Faith to me, means a belief in a proposition despite the complete lack of sufficient evidence to support that belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I think it does matter. The rational people of this world realize that it's these type of assumptions that one has an inside line to what will please an invisible god that is the reason different religions want to kill each other.Quote:
No. It doesn't matter what we think.
So someone who believes in Allah, Zeus, or the great juju of the mountain can do good in the eyes of your god, but an atheist cannot? That makes no sense.Quote:
have answered that a nonChristian can do good in the eyes of God. But a nonbeliever can't. Or at least not any good that will count towards his salvation.
I'll answer point blank. No. I do not believe in any type of god. But more importantly, if I did, I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to assume my religion must know him better than any of the other hundreds of religions.Quote:
But, let me ask point blank, are you saying you believe in God?
Again, I don't care. What I care about is that people aren't so arrogant or pretentious to think they can speak for God. IF God does exist (and IF he cares about what goes on in our little remote corner of the universe), it's certainly not for you to say what could or couldn't please him.Quote:
So, answer the question. If you don't believe in God, why do you care if He is pleased by your deeds?
And that is where we differ. You see, I believe God is my heavenly Father. I believe He loves me and has my best interest at heart. That is why I have faith in Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Lets compare that to something we can relate to. I have faith in my earthly father because I know that he loves me and he does things in my best interest.
Unfortunately, there are children in this world who have parents in whom they do not have faith because, whether they love their parents or not, they can't trust their parents to do things in their best interest. Therefore, they have no faith in their parents.
Since you don't believe God exists, I wouldn't expect you to have faith in Him.
You love to bring up things that aren't in the discussion. The fact is that the deadliest people in history are atheists. Atheistic regimes have killed more people in one century alone than all relgious people have throughout the history of mankind.Quote:
I think it does matter. The rational people of this world realize that it's these type of assumptions that one has an inside line to what will please an invisible god that is the reason different religions want to kill each other.
But lets not change the subject. If you want to discuss this, make another thread.
To you. But it makes perfect sense to me. Someone who believes in a god, even if he does not believe in the True God, may be saved by the True God because that person may be seeking the True God.Quote:
So someone who believes in Allah, Zeus, or the great juju of the mountain can do good in the eyes of your god, but an atheist cannot? That makes no sense.
People who believe in false gods are frequently, but not always, searching for the True God.
Scripture says:
Acts Of Apostles 17 22 But Paul standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. 23 For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you:
Ok. It seems strange, don't you think, that you would say you have more respect for God than I, since you don't even acknowledge His existence?Quote:
I'll answer point blank. No. I do not believe in any type of god.
What type of belief is that? That is more like uncertainty.Quote:
But more importantly, if I did, I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to assume my religion must know him better than any of the other hundreds of religions.
IF you believed, which you don't, you would assume that the religion in which you believed knew God better than the others.
Apparently, you do. You have yet to answer the question and below, you sound uncertain as to the existence of God. Yet two sentences above you claimed not to believe in His existence?Quote:
Again, I don't care.
So, do you or don't you believe that God exists?
Again, a statement that presupposes the existence of God.Quote:
What I care about is that people aren't so arrogant or pretentious to think they can speak for God.
If you don't believe God exists, why do you care if someone speaks for Him or not?
What? Now its "if"? This is a display of uncertainty. Are you an atheist or not?Quote:
IF God does exist (and IF he cares about what goes on in our little remote corner of the universe), it's certainly not for you to say what could or couldn't please him.
I think I need to ask the question again. This time answer the question directly please.
If you don't believe in God, why do you care if He is pleased by your deeds?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Of course a non-Christian can do good, but who you are doing the good for is what makes a Christian and non-Christian different. Are you doing good for your own praise? A Christian does good so that others will praise God. Every good thing is from God. Every good work is for God's glory not ours.
God first, others second, ourselves last.
If we are doing good just for our own glory, it has no value.
God loves everyone. If an atheist saved my loved one I would never be able to thank him enough. Then I would thank God for sending this man to our family. I would know that God sent him to us for a purpose--may be to tell him the good news of Jesus.
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