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I'd be interested in seeing the verse that you are thinking of and to read the context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Actually, I know few people if any who believe Peter was head of the early church who are not Catholics or Mormons.Quote:
I did not think anyone acutally doubted that Peter was the head of the early church, only the fact if he was considered a Pope as the catholic church claim, the claims that he was obviosly the early church leader seems fairly well proven by scripture
What quote? Are you reading something that I have not seen??Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I showed you where scripture itself says that it means "stone", but I note that that scripture reference has been ignore by those who believe Peter was the "rock".Quote:
It is obvious that you are just not wanting to accept black and white, in black and white from your own posting. The term was used throughout Mathew for Peter, it is just the greek word used, straight out of the greek bible strongs dictionary, greek condordance, and exegetical notes coded directly from strongs greek. If this was just a one time use of the term, one could perhaps wonder, but since it is not a one time use of the word it is then a obvous use by the author.
Throughout scripture, the Rock is God (Father or Son):
Deut 32:4
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.
NKJV
Deut 32:15
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
NKJV
Deut 32:18
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you.
NKJV
Deut 32:30-31
30 How could one chase a thousand,
And two put ten thousand to flight,
Unless their Rock had sold them,
And the LORD had surrendered them?
31 For their rock is not like our Rock,
NKJV
2 Sam 22:47
47 "The LORD lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let God be exalted,
The Rock of my salvation!
NKJV
2 Sam 23:3
3 The God of Israel said,
The Rock of Israel spoke to me:
NKJV
Ps 18:46
46 The LORD lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let the God of my salvation be exalted.
NKJV
Ps 28:1
To You I will cry, O LORD my Rock:
NKJV
Ps 42:9
9 I will say to God my Rock,
"Why have You forgotten me?
NKJV
Ps 95:1
Let us shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.
NKJV
Ps 144:1
Blessed be the LORD my Rock,
NKJV
Isa 17:10
10 Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation,
And have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
NKJV
Isa 44:8
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;I know not one.'"
NKJV
Hab 1:12
O LORD, You have appointed them for judgment;
O Rock, You have marked them for correction.
NKJV
1 Cor 10:4-5
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
NKJV
As for the stone, there is much less, but here is what we do find:
John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV
1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
NKJV
So, we are stones, but there are references to Jesus as a stone as well:
Rom 9:33
33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."NKJV
He is both a Rock and a Stone. That is because he is the cornerstone:
Eph 2:19-22
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
NKJV
The cornerstone is in fact, a rock. So Jesus can be called a stone (cornerstone), but is more frequently called the Rock and even the reference to Him being a stone refers to a Rock (cornerstone). On the other hand, there is no reference in scripture anywhere of Peter being called a Rock. He is a stone, as we all are stone per 1 Peter 2:4-6. This may also be a reference to the fact that Jesus is both God (Rock) and man (stone), and is the sole person to hold such a distinction.
Jesus, as the Rock, is also the cornerstone, which is the most notable piece of the foundation, but the confession of Peter that Jesus is Christ is the foundation upon which the church will be built. We see this endorsed in scripture as well, later by Paul:
1 Cor 3:11
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV
So the foundation is Jesus, not Peter. A church built upon Jesus, and the revelation of the fact that he is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God is the church that will stand, not a church built upon a man.
Which rock are they talking to simon "rock" in Math 16:16, same word used in the other passage
??Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Matt 16:16
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV
The word for Simon is:
NT:4613
Simon (see'-mone); of Hebrew origin [OT:8095]; Simon (i.e. Shimon), the name of nine Israelites:
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Who are the stones spoken of here??
John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV
1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
NKJV
No the word for Peter, the King James says Simon Peter,
Thus the word Peter, just as used in the other verse, the term in greek for peter is the same, so if you accept that it is Peter in this verse, it is thus peter in the other.
Which was shown to be translated as "a stone", or a "piece of a rock", but not a rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I note that you did not answer my questions.
Mattew 4:18, Simon called Peter ( not cephas but Pethos)
This is the name that Mathew uses throughout his writings for peter.
In John there term Kephas ( used as cephas in english) and is a term for "the rock" and used by John. But again not used by Matthew in most of his writings, who used the other word
Do not feel bad this is a common mistake most people make by forgetting the books are separate writtings, in style and grammar.
Not that I expect you to see the truth, when one wants to find error in the teachings of Christian teachings, they will play with words to do so.
And since you will not accept the greek words and meanings, there is little to answer, you are shown proof and truth and refuse to see it.
Your web site says you are to question, fine but when it is obvious, one has to accept things at some point when it is proven over and over
What issue do you have with Peter being the leader of the Apostles ?
You must be referring to Galatians. Paul was correcting Peter about behavior, not doctrine. It is interesting to note also in Acts, that Paul was among those who fell silent at the Council of Jerusalem after Peter spoke and delivered a final decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The discussion about the primacy of Peter is interesting and all, however I still haven't seen how this answers the question of how Sola Scriptura is supported by scripture alone.
Gal 2:13-21Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV
Sure sounds like doctrine to me!
The person who delivered the decision was James, who started the final talk with this verse.
Acts 15:13-14
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
NKJV
There if the decision maker is the leader, then that would be James.
This started with De Maria from another thread and I addressed the issue in that thread. De Maria also started this discussion over Peter if memory serves me correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
Yes, it appers to be some mind block against anything that a denomination teaches, if they teach it, it must be wrong. And we will ignore any bible verse that proves it.
Yes, I can understand churches not accept the issue of Peter being Pope, but truly I can't believe any christian group would not accept the bibical teachings of Peter as leader or the apostles.
I also went to the web site of Tj3 has listed, but still don't know what they believe or what type of church they are.
You keep telling me that it says one thing, when the quote I gave does not say that, nor has anyone shown any evidence that Jesus called Peter a rock. It is an opinion of the catholic denominations, and I acknowledge that, but that is not adequate reason for others to believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I would have no issue if it was scriptural, but I find nothing in scripture to support that view - indeed if there was any leader other than Jesus Himself, I suspect that a stronger argument could be made for Paul. But I see nothing in scripture that would suggest that there was any such leader.Quote:
What issue do you have with Peter being the leader of the Apostles ?
Yes, James was the Bishop of Jerusalem. It would be proper for James to give the closing remarks. But again, Peter announced the decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
No, that is not what I said. I do refuse to accept something simply because a denomination teaches it without adequate scriptural support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Then I would suggest that you have not checked out the beliefs of too many other denominations and non-Catholic Christians regarding Peter. I have attended services at many denominations, and have examined the beliefs of many denominations, and off-hand cannot think of any churches outside of Catholic and Mormon that teach that Peter was the leader of the early church.Quote:
Yes, I can understand churches not accept the issue of Peter being Pope, but truly I can't believe any christian group would not accept the bibical teachings of Peter as leader or the apostles.
The speakers each gave their opinions. James announced the decision. Read the passage again. As for the group falling silent, that was to listen to Paul and Barnabas (Not Peter) who spoke before James issued the decision:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
Acts 15:12-14
12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
NKJV
I agree that they fell silent to listen to Paul and Barnabas tell about the great signs God has done. Thanks for pointing that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
However, I still disagree that the decision is James' and not Peter's. James is acting as the Bishop of Jerusalem and gives the final remarks wich refers to what Peter had said prior.
There is nothing in the context to suggest that Peter is not simply another speaker. He was neither first nor last, and nothing stated his opinion as a decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
James' decision however was specifically stated to be a decision. Note that James says:
Acts 15:19-20
19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
NKJV
James put himself in the position of making the judgment. No one challenged that authority, including Peter.
After the long debate Peter got up and spoke. James in his remarks refers to what Peter had said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Well, I have to get to bed. You may have the last word for to night if you like.
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