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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

We do not know if he got married or not, there is no mention of him getting married, so it is doubtful, If he did, that would not change his purpose and message.

True he had no human father, we also do not know for sure if Mary and Josehp ever had sex after Jesus birth, one would assume ( guess ) that they did, as it does speak of Jesus brothers and sisters, ( some say this was Josephs childrn from an earlier marriage, but they are not mentioned in the early stories of jesus birth either.( But in the aspect of the bible, it does not matter if she did or if she did not, since it is not her but Jesus that the message is about

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Are we talking about a historical Jesus or a hypothetical one here. If you answered historical then why would the information surrounding such a respectable man's daily life be so sketchy ? We can't just assume premises for the sake of a desirable conclusion ! I mean only the intellect like yourself seem to understand the HIDDEN messages that form the bulk of the 4 Gospels. HELP me TO UNDERSTAND WHY THAT IS SO ? I should or at least anyone should be able to understand everything that's in the Bible without having to got to college first. Paul does not seem to refer to Jesus as a historical fact but only that God showed him His Love for mankind through the Spiritual Jesus. I stand to be corrected on these folks !

Jesus after his birth to a virgin was in human form, he felt pain, he felt hunger, and he felt all the temptations man feels.

So on the cross while his spirit was God, his body was human. And the Romans were very good at their jobs at giving pain, and I understand from science studies, death on a cross would be a hard death.

Also what those non or anti christian forget is that beyond the earthly pain of death, his death also took on all of the pain of all of the sins of all people, not just those of that day but all sins forever.
So he felt the pain of murder, pain of the theft all the pain of ever sin.
The horror of that pain is not even possible to imagine.

The reason for his death is the need to sacrifice for our sins, in the old testement the need was for a bull or a lamb or a bird to die for the sins we did that year. But now because of Christs dead for us, all we need to do is claim his death for our sins.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The reason for his death is the need to sacrifice for our sins, in the old testement the need was for a bull or a lamb or a bird to die for the sins we did that year. But now because of Christs dead for us, all we need to do is claim his death for our sins.

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Serious question, because I know believers always think us non-believers are being sarcastic. But I don't mean this as disrespectful at all.

Why do you suppose God has such a fixation with blood, torture and sacrifice? Doesn't that seem a little morbid to you? I mean, why not just forgive our sins? He's God after all. Do you think that's beyond His capabilities? Why send Himself down to earth to be tortured?

Also, if Jesus HAD to be tortured so we could be forgiven, then what do you suppose would have happened if Pontius Pilate ordered Jesus to be spared instead of executed? Now would the entirety of humanity be unable to go to heaven? Or do you think Ponius Pilate was set up by God? Lastly, I'm genuinely curious if you think about any of this stuff at all, or just believe it carte blanche?

Lob,
God does not have a fixation with blood, torture or sacrifice, he just does nothing about those things (okay so that was a cheap shot) truth is, man has the fixation. God never required sacrifice, he required mercy, those were Jesus’ words not my own. Jesus quoted the Hebrew text of Hosea where God supposedly demands acknowledgment instead of sacrifice. It is absolutely absurd in the light of Jesus’ words and use of that scripture to place Jesus as a sacrifice for sin. Truth is they do not know their bible well, they use it to defend their beliefs instead of trying to understand them. Jesus is in there but badly misrepresented by the Apostolic processes.

Most Christians whether Protestant or Catholic have been sold a bad bill of goods, they have turned their brains off and accepted dogma for truth, they are good at justifying what they believe despite the truth. They truly think about these things but have been conditioned, and socialized into their religion. Believing the right thing is made conditional upon their acceptance from their families and social groups. It is dysfunctional as all get out and hypocritical to the bone but they cannot see it. I have met a few Christians who have taken the time to deconstruct and reconstruct, those guys are good. I have learned a lot from them. Jesus is pretty cool once you get to know him, and I don’t mean that in some weird holy spirit/metaphysical way. You just have to learn to read between the lines.

Peace.

Relevant good questions there! I was bothered by the one about the crucifixion because I think it also forms one of the pillars of modern christianity

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

So on the cross while his spirit was God, his body was human. And the Romans were very good at thier jobs at giving pain, and I understand from science studies, death on a cross would be a hard death.
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The Romans did not like the trouble makers either especially in an important city like Jerusalem. Some scholarly sources tell us that the Romans would respond with extreme violence to anyone who seemed to disrupt public peace and that's what happened to Jesus when He visited the temple in Jerusalem.

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Originally Posted by scottyv

Jesus is pretty cool once you get to know him, and I don’t mean that in some weird holy spirit/metaphysical way. You just have to learn to read between the lines.

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This is very exiting! I do not mean this in a disrespectable manner or anything of that sort but does he drive a sexy sports car and maybe smokes Cuban cigars ? Did you also went to go college to learn the art of reading between the lines. I wish I could see the world through your eyes ! Can you please elaborate on this as its sounds pretty cool ! :cool:

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Serious question, because I know believers always think us non-believers are being sarcastic. But I don't mean this as disrespectful at all.

Why do you suppose God has such a fixation with blood, torture and sacrifice? Doesn't that seem a little morbid to you? I mean, why not just forgive our sins? He's God after all. Do you think that's beyond His capabilities? Why send Himself down to earth to be tortured?

Also, if Jesus HAD to be tortured so we could be forgiven, then what do you suppose would have happened if Pontius Pilate ordered Jesus to be spared instead of executed? Now would the entirety of humanity be unable to go to heaven? Or do you think Ponius Pilate was set up by God? Lastly, I'm genuinely curious if you think about any of this stuff at all, or just believe it carte blanche?

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No problem I love serious questions and to be honest, it is merely because that is the way God is. Sorry, part of the issues is that belief and accepting God is done by accepting God. The bible only tells us what God requires, not why. I do beelive that all things were made to happen, the bible tells us that the blind man was blind so that the glory of God would be shown. So I believe this time and place ( why was it not 1000 years earlier, or 1000 years latter ) so the time and place in my opinoin ( and again it is merely mine) is that yes, all things were put into place so that it would all happen according to scripture.

I don't believe there was the actual need for the torture of Christ, that sadly was just part of the way Romans did things at the time. But then do our or other governments do a lot less in their own ways today to political or army enemies?

The real issue was that the punishment was to be death, and perhaps it was done as a way that people of that time could and would understand.
As it was all under the old testement ( remember Christ came during the old testment law and it was only after his death that the issues charged from the agreement of the old testment to a new agreement)

So by sending his Son, he did not require the death of any other person or our own for it.

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Originally Posted by peters01alm

The Romans did not like the trouble makers either especially in an important city like Jerusalem. Some scholarly sources tell us that the Romans would respond with extreme violence to anyone who seemed to disrupt public peace and that's what happened to Jesus when He visited the temple in Jerusalem.

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My understanding is that the Romans were very very good at torture and death. And to control the population punishment was fast and hard.

I think Jesus would have drove a compact if he were here today, not one to go to the extreme.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I think Jesus would have drove a compact if he were here today, not one to go to the extreme.

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You mean He is not HERE today ? Wow this is something else now ! Lets get it on!

Yes, Satan as the prince of the earth has his way with most so that is why many today do have an attitude to "get it on" and don't want to follow the morals of God's law.

He is here in Spirit with all the beleivers, even the beleivers that do drive sports car

Seriously ? I hope the Spiritual part is true because then I can see why so many wannabe christians go through all the pain to try and understand the man Jesus. Is it not possible then that the story of crucifixion is only a parable like so many others and that we should not crack our brains but just go with the real meaning thereof ?

The story of the crucifixion is not a parable, it is the main theme of the entire bible, the OT builds up to it, and the NT proclaims it.

But now since Christ lives in and with all of us beleivers, you can buy me that convertible and I will drive it, so Christ can be in it also,

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Why do you suppose God has such a fixation with blood, torture and sacrifice? Doesn't that seem a little morbid to you? I mean, why not just forgive our sins? He's God after all. Do you think that's beyond His capabilities? Why send Himself down to earth to be tortured?

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You're spot on here. The whole idea of sacrificial death as being necessary for reconciliation with God is perverse. It was Jesus' LIFE that showed us the Father and reconciled us to him. His death was the natural result of human cruelty and hate, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

You're spot on here. The whole idea of sacrificial death as being necessary for reconciliation with God is perverse. It was Jesus' LIFE that showed us the Father and reconciled us to him. His death was the natural result of human cruelty and hate, nothing more.

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Any sources you consulted that you could refer me to ? It seems we are dealing with dimensions here. If Jesus really asked God to rescue Him from these acts of human brutality then it is safe to conclude that He was not a descendant of God and could only have been a prophet like many who came before Him. My goodness I'm not saying that He prophecised about the messiah or anything , I heard HE mentioned some stuff about the end of the current epoch ! Mind boggling stuff I mean, or yes maybe the messiah will descend from the heavens in our lifetime! 2012 , yes the well informed say THINGS unseen in this world before will happen , coincidence ?

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The story of the crucifixion is not a parable, it is the main theme of the entire bible, the OT builds up to it, and the NT proclaims it.

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I've always suspected that the crucifixion was indeed the main theme and set out to try and gather the whole truth around that crucial event in Jesus life. If the Roman soldiers acted otherwise and saved Him , would we even be having this thread ? What would have happened to all those prophecies we find in the OT ?

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

But now since Christ lives in and with all of us beleivers, you can buy me that convertable and I will drive it, so Christ can be in it also,

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MARK . MATTHEW, LUKE AND JOHN 'S Jesus would have refused such luxury since He was a man with a humble disposition and always stood by the poor and oppressed.

Needs to put more details thanks

I have no doubt that if there were cigars in the first century Jesus would have been a smoker of the best cuban cigars hand rolled off the thighs of the finest Cuban women... Only, it wouldn't have been Cuba back then:D

Jesus would have ridden a horse like John Wayne, ride a motorcycle like Steve McQueen, and driven a car like Morgan Freeman.

Smiles everyone, smiles!

Scotty

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Originally Posted by peters01alm

any sources you consulted that you could refer me to ?

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Yes, there are sources that support this view e.g. The Urantia Book, but that's not why I believe it. There are sources to support all kinds of views. What it comes down to for me is what kind of God am I willing to believe in. A God who demands the suffering and death of an innocent being in order to be reconciled to His children is not one I am willing to accept. If it turns out that I'm wrong, I can live with that.