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RustyFairmount disagrees: Luke 15:1-7 says otherwise.
Yes, Jesus receives sinners who are repentant. We are called to separate from those who choose to stay in their sin.
1 Corinthians 6:15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!
Note in the parable, Jesus did not say that the shepherd should simply sit and wait for the lost sheep to find its way back. We are called to actively seek out the sinners. We are to put ourselves among them.
There is no such call to separate as you suggest. That is blasphemy. Separation is punishment. Punishment comes after judgement. And only God shall sit in judgement of us.
Seems we disagree on what Jesus said. I believe He is the Shepherd. I believe God calls sodomy a sin. I believe we are not to hang with those who choose to live in their sin. Not going to argue if you choose to believe differently.
Agreed. Your faith is strong, and that is a wonderful thing!
If hanging with sinners makes one more likely to sin themselves, then staying away is the best bet. But I choose to take God's word to the sinners, and pray that they will repent even if it is on their last day.
Good luck with all you do! And thanks for a great dialog.
I don't agree with turning our backs on people who are gay. I do not think there is a problem continuing friendship with someone who chooses to be gay. We all sin and will continue to until our dying day. Our friend's sin of homosexuality is no different than any of the sins we commit, even if he continues in his sin. Many of us continue in one particular sin/s until we have the strength, willingness and help from God to turn away from it. There is no difference! Turn our backs? No way! We should instead stick with him, talk to him about his continuous sin. There is absolutely nothing wrong with hanging out with the gay friend... having dinner, watching movies, recreation, conversation, etc. You go wrong when you condone his choice, when you chose to be with him when he seeks dates, etc. Because then you are partaking in his sin, in a sense, and that is wrong. But as long as you keep yourself separated from his acts of sin then there is no reason why you shouldn't be around him when he is simply being a friend. Same goes for any other sin. We are supposed to separate ourselves from any sins that are being committed. This doesn't mean we are supposed to turn away from the sinner. If that was the case all we would be looking at is people's backs, and we would all be hypocrites.
So, campem2, you continue your friendship with him. Do not turn your back on him. Talk to him, explain and show him Biblically why his choice is the wrong one and why he should turn away from his sin. Don't condone his choice and don't have any part in it. You can continue that friendship without having anything to do with it or him when he goes on dates and hangs out with his boyfriend. Just as you wouldn't hang out with your drug addict friend when they are searching for drugs, buying drugs and taking drugs, or even when they are high. Doesn't mean you can't be around them when they aren't. Matter of fact that's the best time because you can then talk to them, be an example for them.
How can your friend ever know the truth about his choice when all of those who know better turn away from him.
WOW! That's the best advice I've gotten from anyone yet. Ive read all the posts up to this point and I must say that it all seems very sad, some seem to be against christians and others seem to be against "the world". Homosexuality is just like any other sin in gods eyes. And you can't take the bible out of context, to write off the whole bible just because it is old? That doesn't make sense. There is more factual evidence to support what is in the bible then any other writings. And saying to bible condones slavery? Again, don't take it out of context. Do you know who wrote that book of the bible? I understand, don't condone my friends choice of homosexuality. I understand what your saying, and I don't. He knows how I feel about it and I let him know how I feel when he brings it up. This is a heated topic. I just think that a lot of people are wrong. OK, so someone might say that there is living in sin(homosexuality) and a sinful act(stealing). Though that makes sense... our whole lives are living in sin! Just explain to me please how jesus witnessed to everyone, didn't turn his back on anyone and yes he even witnessed to gay people I'm sure, how can a christian strive to be like him yet say "oh, gay people are an exception to the rule"?? I just don't really get it. And by the way, just because its not directly in the ten commandments doesn't mean that its not a sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
so anyway... thank you so much for your advice Moonlitwaves... it seemed very wise and helpful. And also thanks to everyone for posting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
On the surface that could sound like good advice, but consider it from God's view and Jesus' view (which actually is a perfect reflection of God's). While on earth, Jesus preached to all, including those involved in gross sins and what did he preach to them about (besides God's kingdom)? He spoke of REPENTANCE. Someone who desired to have God's approval on them would have to repent of their sinful ways. A person living and practicing sin would not be able to gain an approved standing in God's sight. This means that there would most definitely be a problem between an individual who chooses to practice sin and God, as that individual would not be repentant of the wrong they've committed and continue to commit by living that lifestyle. It makes no difference what kind of sin the person is in the practice of committing, the big deal is that it is still a PRACTICE of sin, a willful choice to continue to sin. Make no mistake, the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is sinful in God's sight. But, people who abandon such a course, recognizing that it is wrong and sinful, and have a true desire to be pleasing to God, are certainly welcome to approach him and rely upon him for the help that is needed in fighting such unclean urges and desires.
So when Moonlitwaves says "I do not think there is a problem continuing friendship with someone who chooses to be gay." - Such a statement is the viewpoint of an imperfect human. That viewpoint is not shared by our Creator. He wants those who are repentant and truly striving to serve him obediently. When someone "chooses to be gay", they're choosing to live a sinful life, with no thought of needing to be repentant of anything.
The Christian congregation was encouraged to remove people from their midst who willfully practiced gross sins, with no thought or desire to repent and turn around from their ways. This was for the spiritual protection of the entire congregation as a whole, as they would have no association with this one; all-the-while hoping that the individual would come to recognize the error of his ways and eventually repent so as to be welcomed back to the congregation and to a healthy relationship with God.
Certainly you can share with him God's viewpoint of homosexuality and then allow him to decide what he wants to do. The Bible states in 1 Corinthians 15:33 that "bad association spoils useful habits", which means that our associating with people who willfully choose to practice sin without any desire to change their ways, would be bad association, and such bad association could be detrimental to us and to our own relationship with God. There would DEFINITELY be something wrong with continuing to enjoy social association with this one who has made their choice to live a sinful life. By continuing to associate with this person, no matter how long you've been friends, you're giving them the idea that no matter whether they choose to repent of their clearly wrong lifestyle or not, you will excuse it for the sake of the friendship. God's standards are higher than that, so should ours be.
There are many people who have difficulty with turning away from one particular sin. Be it, drugs, alcohol, smoking, lustful thoughts, gambling addiction, sex addiction, habitual sins, etc. We do not have to and should not be around these people when they are actively sinning, but this doesn't mean we should dissassociate ourselves from them completely. It is easy to say we would turn away from a gay friend, but what if it was a family member who is having difficulty with one particular sin. Wouldn't you talk to them, try to show them the correct way, help them turn away from their sin, etc. More than likely, yes you would. Why should a friend be any different than your loved one. No matter the sin.
God has nothing to do with our sins, but He doesn't dissassociate Himself completely from us when we do. And even if He ever did, who are we to say when He reaches His limit.
How many times did the Spirit work with you before you dropped to your knees and asked for salvation? For some people it could take nearly a lifetime. God didn't turn away from them. He kept trying and trying to get the person/people to see and know truth.
It also doesn't mean that you would continue the same amount of association with these individuals (or increase it) that you have had previously. If you put your friendship with this individual (whether a relative or not) above your obedience to God and your desire to maintain an approved relationship with God, then that would be an easy choice on your part and you'd say "well I'm not going to stop hanging around them if they continue this way", but if you put your relationship with God ahead of that friendship, then you'd be more apt to examine this friendship and see what harm it could cause you in the long run and how it may give the friend the idea that you really are condoning their choice. All sins are NOT the same... nowhere in the Bible is that idea ever given. That idea was started by people who want to try and minimize their wrongdoing by making it seem less serious than it actually is.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
Again, the idea behind God's acceptance is our heartfelt repentance and striving to be obedient to Him and his laws & principles. Those who willfully practice sin, even after being shown that what they're doing is sinful, do not have God's blessing and/or backing upon them. It's that simple. And if we continue to extend close friendship to these ones who have made their choice, it only leads to a detrimental effect upon us. "Draw close to God and he will draw close to you, " said the Apostle James. Drawing close to God means making the choice to live according to his ways and his laws (as best as we imperfect beings can) and not willfully practicing sin or being around those who do... family or not.
What harm can it do in the long run?Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrascal
It will harm their own relationship with God, as God will see them continuing to pursue a friendship with someone who clearly wants just the opposite. If you put a rotten apple and a good apple in a bag together, the rotten one will be the one to affect the other, not vice versa. The same can be applied in this situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
So sad that you equate the gay person to the rotten apple but to each their own I guess. I've hung around lots of gay people (in fact a gay couple is our daughter's godparents) and it hasn't affected me. But then again I may be the exception to the rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Even sadder that you don't see that homosexuality is sinful to God, a sin that people need to repent from in order to be clean in His sight. The fact that you can't see any affect on you doesn't mean there isn't one. Clearly there is one if you don't see the wrong in it.
Has your friend decided to turn from sin, or continue to live in it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrascal
So let me get this straight. Im not sure if you are a guy or a girl but let me ask you this? Are you attracted to everyone of the opposite sex? No. So why would a gay guy be different. Are you scared one may hit on you or something. Gay people are attracted to every single one of the same sex.
And Gay people know that their friends may be straight, and they accept that. Now why can't you?
Its OK, ill pray you learn to love people for who they are, its OK I forgive you.
The Bible says that Jesus came to the sinners not the healthy. The Bible says Paul murdered Christians before he encountered God. If we turn away 'sinners' we live in our own man made bubble and not following the teaching to go into the world and witness. The church is becoming a social club that only tolerates others like them and throw away the caring for the *lesser than them* poor, the down and out and sinners.
The main problem I have with the churches going against gays is they preach against them like they are the personification of the definition of sin itself. Yet they do not treat a married man that cheats on his wife like an outcast. They will 'work with them' until they see 'the error of their way' but blackball the gay from the church. Sin is sin. Man in his reasoning has turned sexual sins into differing degrees of sin.
Wrong. If "sin is sin", then the Bible wouldn't specify that there is one particular sin that is unforgivable... that being, blasphemy against the holy spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
True tchal. I agree as far as joining the joining church thing but you can't turn them away from learning or turning them off from God's love by your actions either. There has to be a balance and a line.
tchalien agrees: I agree there is no degree of sin, but can you allow a practicing sinner to be a member of a congregation? Can a murderer that still murders join a church, thinking their murdering is okay? NO, Sin is sin.
But that is when it is up to the congregation to help him understand that his murdering is not okay. Kicking him out the doors helps nothing, but the churches pride. He needs to be there, he needs to hear the Word and be around Christians who can set an example for him and help him turn away from his sin. Of course we are talking known murdering so he will instead be in prison, but the point is no one should turn their backs on him. They should be visiting him in prison talking to him about God and His Word.
Continuing a friendship with someone who is gay does not support nor condone the friend's choice. If you and the friend can converse and hang out without the friend practicing his homosexual ways when he is with you then there is no reason why the friendship should be broken. Now if the gay friend insists on flirting and finding dates or double dating while you are with him then he has no respect for you and your beliefs and therefore is no friend in the first place. But if he respects your beliefs while you are together then continue the friendship.
It's funny how people pick what is worse than others. Allowing anything to control your body (temple) is a sin. Many people eat too much (allow food to control their appetites) yet many people still continue to have dinner with those very same relatives and friends who eat too much. How can you disassociate yourself from those who are gay, but continue to cherish the mother, father, aunt, uncle, friend who eats too much and not be a hypocrite? If your are going to kick out the homosexuals because they continue to practice that sinful way, then kick out the over eaters because they continue to allow food to control their bodies. What about the sins that you can't see? What about the people who continuously lust for worldly things (money) or lust over people. They keep it to themselves, but yet they continuously practice their lustful sins in their thoughts. Where are they? Sitting on the pew next to you.
Other than blasphemy I don't recall God ever ranking sin in degrees of greatest and least. Therefore I do not believe any sin is greater than the other. But even if there were, who are we to decide which sins God finds to be worse than others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
Wrong. Kicking him out the door is for the good of the entire congregation, for your own good, and ultimately for theirs (assuming they will come to their senses and turn around from their sinful lifestyle). If removing them "helps nothing", then why was it that the Apostle Paul counseled the congregations to do that exact thing with willful sinners? I'm afraid I'd have to go along with the inspired counsel of the Apostle Paul on an issue like this rather than your opinion.
If you show him from the Bible why his way is wrong, that only needs to take one or two times. If you constantly bash him over the head with something when he's clearly not going to listen to you, that accomplishes nothing.
Continuing a close friendship with such an individual, who has CHOSEN to continue a lifestyle of gross sin absolutely DOES show your support and condoning of their continued sin. God disciplines those he loves, and included in that discipline would be casting an unrepentant sinner from the congregation, from among those who are determined to be obedient. If you break off that friendship until that person turns around, you show that your stand is for God's laws and principles and that you value that relationship more than one with a willful sinner. You would also be showing absolutely that you do not condone their chosen course of life.
It's interesting how your viewpoint differs so drastically from God's.
I suggest you actually pick up and read a book called the Bible. In it you can see very clearly how certain sinful acts are considered as extremely serious in God's sight, fornication being one of those things. Fornication includes any sexual activity that is unnatural and practiced outside the bonds of marriage... homosexuality, bisexuality, and so forth being included in that. 1 Corinthians 6:18 highlights the seriousness of fornication by specifically counseling us to "flee" from it. That particular sin is given special attention because of its seriousness in God's eyes. People today try to minimize sin by saying that all sin is the same, or why should one be condemned while people still engage in others.
You showed very clearly how all of this is being viewed when you said "therefore I do not believe...." - Shouldn't it be more important what God says, rather than what YOU believe?
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