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Originally Posted by bushg

tessy I have read the bible not all but a lot of it and what i interpet and waht someone else interepts is different am I going to hell if I do my best...this is the problem that I have and it caused me many many of sleepless night of torment until ...I just refuse to worry about it anymore. I try to be the best person I can be and if that is not enough then maybe I am doomed.

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Pray before you read.. start in JOHN and ask God to show you what he wants you to see. He say He draws near to us when we draw near to Him.. He says ask and He will answer you. ASK GOD... not men. Dude, some of the weirdest people I know are Christians and they are screwed up too. Don't look to man... look to God. I promise He will show you.

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Originally Posted by Tessy777

Dude,

I feel your pain. There are lots and lots of weird so called "Christian" ideas out there. don't go by what other people think or say...my point is ..find out what God has to say.

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Well said you just have to make sure you really want to listen when he knocks :)

"my point is ..find out what God has to say." As Ronnie used to say, " Now there you go again!!" You're asking me to believe. Now that's pretty difficult for a atheist to do. Sort of like me asking you to stop believing. Same thing thing exactly!
You say you feel my pain? I don't have any pain. It used to bug hell out of the fundamentalists when I would tell them that I was a completely contented man. I was assured that it was a false feeling and unless I accepted Jesus I would never be happy and die a bitter old man.
Well folks Here it is years later! I'm 80 and in my "twilight years". Still happy and contented having grown old in exactly the location I've chosen to live in. I have the love of a good woman and a small Shih Tsu dog that thinks he's the master and I'm his human. Not rich but not poor. I wonder how many of the protesters can say the same thing?
Feel my pain? Nah! But you can share in my contentment and piece of mind if you wish. I've got plenty to spare.

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Originally Posted by Tessy777

Sppechlesstx,

I actually agree with you... I feel that man in his natural states HATES God's sovereignty. That is my opinion. That is why people get so upset at the thought of one way to heaven. They don't like it. They would rather debate, conclude, feel, think and summarize without finding out what God says. It is easier to point to another race, people or religion and say what about them! ? But God says....what will YOU do with Christ.

Also consider this verse in John speaking of Christ:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.

How does he do this? I don't know, but I am content with letting God be God.

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About all can say to that is amen. :)

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Originally Posted by speedball1

"my point is ..find out what God has to say." As Ronnie used to say, " Now there you go again!!" You're asking me to believe. Now that's pretty difficult for a atheist to do. Sort of like me asking you to stop believing. Same thing thing exactly!!
You say you feel my pain? I don't have any pain. It used to bug hell out of the fundamentalists when I would tell them that I was a completely contented man. I was assured that it was a false feeling and unless I accepted Jesus I would never be happy and die a bitter old man.
Well folks Here it is years later! I'm 80 and in my "twilight years". Still happy and contented having grown old in exactly the location I've chosen to live in. I have the love of a good woman and a small Shih Tsu dog that thinks he's the master and I'm his human. Not rich but not poor. I wonder how many of the protesters can say the same thing?
Feel my pain?? Nah!! But you can share in my contentment and piece of mind if you wish. I've got plenty to spare.

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Lol... good for you speedy!!
Dude, I didn't know you were an atheist . As far as feeling "your pain" I was referring to some of the stupid things people do in the name of christianity. I suppose it is more like you feeling my pain.. I am embarrassed by some of the silly stuff that people do in the name of Chirst. I'm glad you are so happy dude. ;)

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Originally Posted by bushg

I am all for believing I agree are earth is an awesome....but it kills me when someone tells me I'm going to hell for cutting my hair...eating pork...watching t.v. wearing shorts etc...if I don't believe their way I am doomed

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bushg, I am wholeheartedly behind what Tessy said. Things like you're saying here are what she touched on, listening to man instead of what God wants to say to you. If someone says to you you're "going to hell for cutting my hair...eating pork...watching t.v. wearing shorts etc" they don't understand God or the bible. It's not about any of that, it's about trusting God.

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Originally Posted by Bubbler

John 14.6 Jesus, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me."

I look at this as meaning that unless you can call on the name of the Lord then you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. I do think that very young children and people with very bad disabiltys that can not make there own choice's will be saved in God's grace - Romans 9.18 -

I see it as people that can call upon the name of the Lord will be in Heaven until the Ressurection but people that can not call on the name will be in Hell !

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The consensus from the Christian leaders & theologians on this is that- Everyone is born with a God consciousness. If a person is in an inaccessible area or remote area that ministers of the Gospel cannot reach- or that they don't have modern technology to hear the Gospel or know about the Bible , then they will be judged by their goodness or not according to the God consciousness. Also disabled, who cannot understand & children (until an age of accountability)
Romans 1: 18-20
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Hope you got the answer today. Love & Peace.

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Originally Posted by speedball1

After I retired from plumbing I volunteered at a local abortion clinic as a escort escorting frightened young girls past screaming protesters. After 3 years I was put on staff as Head of Security, chief escort and Clinic spokesman. In the following 10 years until I retired again I heard from the fundimental protesters over and over again, What speechless asks. "what exactly does one have to lose by simply believing?"

My response to that was, " think back to when you were a child when you believed in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the easter bunny. I want you to start "simply believing" in them again. What's that? you can't?? Why not?? You just asked the same thing out of me."
You can no more force belief on a person then you can change your own.
I an totally against religious whackos that attempt to force their particular brand of religion down your throat because "It's the one true religious belief and everyone elses is wrong." These people fly in the face of scientific fact.
The Earth is flat because the Bible mentions the 4 corners of the Earth. The earth is only a few thousand years old and one poster claimed that dinosaurs never existed and the bones were put there by satan to confuse us that the earth is really older then a few thousand years.
As I said, We are all free to believe, or not to believe, anything we want. Just don't try to force yours on me. I'm happy with mine.

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I can see where you were jaded towards "religion" because religion in your example of the protesters was from the very extreme right. I don't agree with fanaticism. They should take their protests to Washington peacefully or just vote for those politicians who will promise to overturn Roe vs. Wade. Do fanatics still target abortion clinics? I haven't heard about any instances in yrs.
You see that is a very moral decision. With law or not.
I had a friend, back in the early days, just before abortion was legalized. I drove her to an apt. somewhere in Brooklyn, where a woman placed something in the uterus for a price.
We drove to to a hotel & stayed about 36 hrs. I had to place the "embryo" in the garbage.
God forgive her. So if a woman simply can't handle a baby at a specific time- it seems that they will risk bleeding to death to abort it. I know she changed her ways since then, but the point I'm trying to make is that this country has come a long way in regards to how they feel about the sanctity of life. We have woken up from the cloud of that kind of liberalism. I know that if either of my daughters now were to be in that predicament, I am pro-life(it helps for them to have this mother too!)
So you say you are 80 SB. Do you know or care what will happen to you or any loved ones when you die?

Yes those of firm belief that know abortion is murder and the doctors that do it, are killers, yes we still protest, I have not in a couple years, ( there are no open any longer around my area , thank God.

But in Atlanta, I was a regular with my sign and my flyers. If we just saved one life, it would have been worth years of protest, because what is the value of life. And we don't see you calling the protesters outside the prison against captital punishment being called fanatics?
But no it is not fanatics, it is great people who want to save lives.
Te fanatics are the ones that use abortion as birth control and have no respect for human life, and even worst the terrorsts licensed under the medical profession that does the abortions. The mothers can be forgiven, and even the medical staff doing the killing can be, but they have to first admit their sin and ask forgiveness,

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Yes those of firm beleif that know abortion is murder and the doctors that do it, are killers, yes we still protest, I have not in a couple years, ( there are no open any longer around my area , thank God.

But in Atlanta, I was a regular with my sign and my flyers. If we just saved one life, it would have been worth years of protest, because what is the value of life. And we don't see you calling the protesters outside the prison against captital punishment being called fanatics ??
But no it is not fanatics, it is great people who want to save lives.
Te fanatics are the ones that use abortion as birth control and have no respect for human life, and even worst the terrorsts licensed under the medical profession that does the abortions. The mothers can be forgiven, and even the medical staff doing the killing can be, but they have to first admit thier sin and ask forgiveness,

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Most abortions are wrong and there is no room for compromise. Having said that, as a Christian I would rather help someone see that it is wrong perhaps lead them to consider other options, rather than stand outside with signs and scream at the women that go into the clinic. It is like harassment and frankly that hasn't changed anyone's mind. This is where using wisdom comes in real handy. Some protesters have killed in the name of Christianity and felt righteous for it. Please! Wisdom, Wisdom, Wisdom.. otherwise we make a mockery of Christianity.

Sorry that was off thread but I wanted to respond. ;)

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Yes those of firm beleif that know abortion is murder and the doctors that do it, are killers, yes we still protest, I have not in a couple years, ( there are no open any longer around my area , thank God.

But in Atlanta, I was a regular with my sign and my flyers. If we just saved one life, it would have been worth years of protest, because what is the value of life. And we don't see you calling the protesters outside the prison against captital punishment being called fanatics ??
But no it is not fanatics, it is great people who want to save lives.
Te fanatics are the ones that use abortion as birth control and have no respect for human life, and even worst the terrorsts licensed under the medical profession that does the abortions. The mothers can be forgiven, and even the medical staff doing the killing can be, but they have to first admit thier sin and ask forgiveness,

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Well Chuck, I wasn't going to bring it up but since you jumped into this thread you're the poster that put it down in black and white that the earth was only a few thousand years old and the dinosaur bones were put there by satan just to confuse us about the earths age. It must be a scary world that you live in Chuck, filled with demons, devils and whatnot. It doesn't supprise me that you were one of the middle age white men protesting outside of a women's clinic. You and people like you are what propelled me into fighting for women's rights. You've told your story, now let me tell you mine.

I retired as a plumbing foreman in 1988. I used to drive by the Sarasota Women's Health Clinic and see 50 to 75 protesters with signs and gross pictures ganging up on a single female as she attempted to enter the clinic compound. I would honk my air horns and shake a coathanger at them.
One day I stopped and listened to what they were shouting at the girls. "Whore! slut! murderer! were just a few of the nasty things that were heaped on them as they walked in. They were throwing tiny plastic dolls dipped in red fingernail polish in open car windows as they drove into the parking lot. They stopped that when one hit a girl in the eye.
When I volunteered as a escort the next day I had no idea it would last for thirteen years and that I would end up working with our local police and be responsible for sending a lot of the protesters to jail. In 1993 when the "lifers" begain killing doctors and escorts, the clinic put me on staff as head of security and chief escort and clinic spokesman. Because the female staff members were fearful of their faces being shown on TV I did the clinic interviews.l
In my job I have gone head to head with most of the heavy hitters in abortion protesting. Randel Terry of Operation Rescue, Flip Benham of Rescue America, Joe Scheidler of The Pro-Life Action League, Tom and Linda McGlade of Missionaries for Life to name a few. All used guilt as a club and religion as a threat. I'll not go into the insults, the threats, the stalking of both are patients and staff members, except to say the threats, intimidation, guilt and physical violence were just some of the weapons used against clinic staff and patients.
In my job I have been attacked three times, shot at twice, went through four bomb scares and had two anthrax letters come to our office, one of which we opened and got white powder on myself and the office manager. The letter inside the envelope condemed abortion and informed us we had just been exposed to anthrax and were going to die. It took three days for Hazmat to analyze the substance and report it was harmless. Have you any idea the terror involved in not knowing if you would live or die?
In my capacity as head of security, I have sent many protesters to jail and spent a lot of free time in court testifying against them. Some for violent action but most for harassment and trespass after warning. I kept at my job because I believe in women's rights. For far too long they were second class citizens, not being able to vote, own property or have control over their own bodies.
Women have fought too long and hard, have suffered too many hardships attaining these rights to have even one of them taken from them.
I'm retired again. I've run my race and looking back on it, remembering the hundreds of frightened girls I've escorted past screaming whackos, I can feel proud that in my small way I have helped keep women's rights where they belong. With women, and not with some middle-aged white man shouting threats and insults outside a clinic.

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Well Chuck, I wasn't gonna bring it up but since you jumped into this thread you're the poster that put it down in black and white that the earth was only a few thousand years old and the dinosaur bones were put there by satan just to confuse us about the earths age. It must be a scary world that you live in Chuck, filled with demons, devils and whatnot. It doesn't supprise me that you were one of the middle age white men protesting outside of a womens clinic. You and people like you are what propelled me into fighting for womens rights. You've told your story, now let me tell you mine.

I retired as a plumbing foreman in 1988. I used to drive by the Sarasota Women's Health Clinic and see 50 to 75 protesters with signs and gross pictures ganging up on a single female as she attempted to enter the clinic compound. I would honk my air horns and shake a coathanger at them.
One day I stopped and listened to what they were shouting at the girls. "Whore! slut! murderer! were just a few of the nasty things that were heaped on them as they walked in. They were throwing tiny plastic dolls dipped in red fingernail polish in open car windows as they drove into the parking lot. They stopped that when one hit a girl in the eye.
When I volunteered as a escort the next day I had no idea it would last for thirteen years and that I would end up working with our local police and be responsible for sending a lot of the protesters to jail. In 1993 when the "lifers" begain killing doctors and escorts, the clinic put me on staff as head of security and chief escort and clinic spokesman. Because the female staff members were fearful of their faces being shown on TV I did the clinic interviews.l
In my job I have gone head to head with most of the heavy hitters in abortion protesting. Randel Terry of Operation Rescue, Flip Benham of Rescue America, Joe Scheidler of The Pro-Life Action League, Tom and Linda McGlade of Missionaries for Life to name a few. All used guilt as a club and religion as a threat. I'll not go into the insults, the threats, the stalking of both are patients and staff members, except to say the threats, intimidation, guilt and physical violence were just some of the weapons used against clinic staff and patients.
In my job I have been attacked three times, shot at twice, went through four bomb scares and had two anthrax letters come to our office, one of which we opened and got white powder on myself and the office manager. The letter inside the envelope condemed abortion and informed us we had just been exposed to anthrax and were going to die. It took three days for Hazmat to analyze the substance and report it was harmless. Have you any idea the terror involved in not knowing if you would live or die?
In my capacity as head of security, I have sent many protesters to jail and spent a lot of free time in court testifying against them. Some for violent action but most for harassment and trespass after warning. I kept at my job because I believe in women's rights. For far too long they were second class citizens, not being able to vote, own property or have control over their own bodies.
Women have fought too long and hard, have suffered too many hardships attaining these rights to have even one of them taken from them.
I'm retired again. I've run my race and looking back on it, remembering the hundreds of frightened girls I've escorted past screaming whackos, I can feel proud that in my small way I have helped keep women's rights where they belong. With women, and not with some middle-aged white man shouting threats and insults outside a clinic.

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Christians believe that God values human life greatly, and that God has shown this by sending Jesus to die for us. A lot of views regards abortion can be seen in v/s =

'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.' (Jeremiah 1:5)

'The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.' (1 Samuel 2:6)

'But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.' (Romans 5:8)

There is no specific instruction given about abortion in the Bible, so what Christians believe about it must be based on interpreting passages which appear to speak about the sanctity of life. Naturally, this lead to a variety of viewpoints concerning the rightness or wrongness of abortion. This in my view is a grey area that's is not clear cut !

My views as a Christian are that I do not judge anybody for there actions, in my view only on the day of a persons judgment will they answer for anything that they have done during there life time on earth !

speedball1 it sounds that you have seen a lot during your life and have a lot of views and input seeing things from all different angles, thanks for your input and shearing the above with us.

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Originally Posted by Hope12

But what happens to those who are not "Gods children?"

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I think you have defined a group that includes no members.

Ya know I never wondered too much about what happens to you when you die. We're all going to find out in the end. What bugs me is where was I before I was born? Is there some sort of celestial nursery where tiny souls are waiting to be born? And what about having lived before in another time?
That would shoot hell out of the Gods Nursery theory. So where does that leave us? Why right where we've always been! You can quote Bible passages to me till the cows come home but in the final end it all boils down to** I DON'T KNOW! **

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Ya know I never wondered too much about what happens to you when you die. We're all gonna find out in the end. What bugs me is where was I before I was born? Is there some sort of celestial nursery where tiny souls are waiting to be born? And what about having lived before in another time?
That would shoot hell outta the Gods Nursery theory. So where does that leave us? Why right where we've always been! You can quote Bible passages to me till the cows come home but in the final end it all boils down to** I DON'T KNOW!!**

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I guess my answer would be that My Faith holds me strong in my view of Life after Death with the Lord in Heaven

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poppa0777 disagrees: We can trust the Holy Bible to see where our final destination will be. Period.

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The narrow mindedness is stagerring. Hope asked the question wanting to get opinions. I gave mine. You seem to want to shut down all opinions different than your own. That is what turns people off.

NeedKarma,

It is just that poppo777 believes in absolute Truth... you think it is intolerence.. but it isn't. It is called faith.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The narrow mindedness is stagerring. Hope asked the question wanting to get opinions. I gave mine. You seem to want to shut down all opinions different than your own. That is what turns people off.

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Ah, but not having been raised in the Church, my mind was a wide open book. I have already considered "your" theory of nothingness after we die. Now, with Christ, I am a new person & my mind has been transformed. I have hope because the Bible tells me so, & also because the Holy Spirit has shown me visions that only God could know & answer. It is this faith that brings joy- & a promise of a joyful ending.
The Bible also tells us that there is no such thing as "nothingness" after you die. Therefore, the only narrowness is the gate we need to go through to get to Heaven.
I felt for you so I didn't give a disagree-bc I know that you are very sensitive. Jesus can help you with that if you will accept Him, because He loves you & He is strong for us when we are weak.

So high, you can't get over it,
So wide, you can't get around it,
So low, you can't get under it-
You got to come in at the door!

I hope you will open your heart and mind to the love of Christ today because tomorrow is promised to no one. God Bless!

It's the other way around with me. I was raised in Roman Catholic environment: Catholic schools, I was confirmed, went to private Jesuit school, had something akin to Bible class. My parents are wonderfully open minded people who gave me a great childhood. During my travels around part of the world and my university degree I met tons of great people that are good people regardless of colour, nationality, religious beliefs, etc. But then I started noticing the hypocritical christians among me. Then I notoced the divisiveness that I see here. I figured out that I'm a happy guy who doesn't need a book to tell me what to do (plus some of the bits in the book seem way too far-fetched when you really start to think about it).

I noticed that a lot of the people who are strict fundamentalists have had very bad experiences in their lives (substance abuse, some trauma of some sort, neglectful or absent parenting, et.) and theyare in need of some form of guide since, left to themselves they make bad decisions. Well in those cases more power to them if it keeps them on the straight and narrow. I don't have those issues. I had great parents, I make good decisions and I love being married and being a dad. I have no need for the book or faith in an unseen being. I know you can't seem to deal with that but that's OK with me. The incessant preaching does not turn people to your side - in my opinion it strenghtens my decision that I don't want any part of a group that has a superiority complex and condems others for not being like them.

So basically I don't care what happens after I die, I am enjoying the current voyage. If you look at the initial question of this thread and Poppa's comment you'll see why I took exception to it. Once again it's people like that that reaffirm my decisions.

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Originally Posted by Retrotia

The Bible also tells us that there is no such thing as "nothingness" after you die.

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Well, there is this:

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For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun. Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do." Ecclesiastes 9:5-7 RSV

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The Bible contains a lot of different ideas and viewpoints, and they aren't all consistent. We each get to decide what to notice and what to ignore. It doesn't "tell us" anything. We have to interpret it.