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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Let's rephrase that... purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church

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So far so good.

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and is not, according to sndbay's PERSONAL OPINION, in the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

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No, Scott, the truth is that it is simply not in the Bible anywhere. Every passage that you, arcura and other members of your denomination have posted have been soundly refuted. Purgatory is a doctrine specific to your denomination and is not part of the Christian faith as found in God's word (the Bible).

Remember, the Roman catholic faith was built upon the personal opinions of men (tradition and private interpretation)

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Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay, Of course Jesus can and does wipe away (forgive) sins.
But please note that He did not purge us of our sinful nature.

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If you plan on depending on purging your own sins rather than Jesus, I have bad news for you.

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

No mere man can purge sins.

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The Church Jesus founded had Peter as its first leader.

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No, Fred, Jesus remained the leader of the church that He founded.

Eph 5:23-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

If your church has tossed jesus out of that role, then I would suggest that you leave that church.

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It was not a denomination. At that time is was the first and only Church.

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Jesus did not found a denomination, nor was Peter the head of one.

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It still IS the first now called the Catholic Church.

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Now you say that it is your denomination. Make up your mind.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Lilmkiss,
The Bible tells us that The Church Jesus founded is the pillar and foundation of the truth, It is the bride of Christ and lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness ,
Fred

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Yes this is true but men claming to be with God may very well just be in it for themselves I don't mean to sound standoffish this is not my intent it is simply all I was trying to say is that one has to test what man says against what it says in the bible in context and this is what we have to be careful of, some might also call these people Sunday christions men make mistakes and I was not arguing the sanctity of the church or the fact that it was Jesus who founded it I 100% agree but I will take no mans word unless it is held up through scriptural evidence as it does say in 1 John 4 and 1 Timothy 1 and this is all I meant to say

Tj3,
I see that once again you do not believe that the indication of the existence IS in the bible.
You deny the passages that so indicate.
How sad.
You continually say that you believe the bible and then you prove that there are many parts of it that you do not.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I see that once again you do not believe that the indication of the existence IS in the bible.
You deny the passages that so indicate.

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No, Fred, I refuted that the false claim that any of these have any relationship to the fictional place called purgatory. In deed, if you had taken a moment to actually read the verses rather than copying and pasting them from someone else's website, you would have seen that some are completely un-related to anything remotely close to the topic at hand. Of course you had no rebuttal to anything on that post, nor did your cohorts.

It is message #333 Fred, just so that you cannot claim that you never saw it.

Tj3,
DON'T tell me no.
I've seen you do it many times.
Denying the truth is another of your bad habits.
That is why I continually pray for you even though you have foolishly asked me and others not to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
DON'T tell me no.
I've seen you do it many times.
Denying the truth is another of your bad habits.
That is why I continually pray for you even though you have foolishly asked me and others not to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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I note that once again Fred, you choose to attack the person rather than deal with what the Bible says.

Those who love truth do not need to fear truth, Fred.

Read message 333 Fred, if you think that you can refute what those verses say in context. Personally, I doubt that you will try. I think that you already know what you won't admit. But feel free to prove me wrong, open your Bible and read what those verse references that you copied and pasted from someone's website actually say.

I notice that you have not posted them again since I posted the context of the passages.

arcura
this is a verse that utterly discredits Pergatory

Ephesians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus,[a] the faithful[b] in Christ Jesus:

2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

this verse's alone in the bible shows us that it is not through anything but Christ we are forgiven plain and simple to call yourself a Christian and not even look a the evidence that we have right here is a willfull ignorance and I do hope you will understand if you are to call the Holy spirit a liar because the bible is the inspired word of God Especially the part that I have bolded then you are not a man of god and I do pray that you will come to an understanding that it is Jesus Christ's blood that he shed on the cross that purges us of our sin and not some purgatory Jesus Christ (God the Son) needs no help to purge us of our sins he is God and can do anything.

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Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

this is a verse that utterly discredits Pergatory

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Nope... doesn't even come close.

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this verse's alone in the bible shows us that it is not through anything but Christ we are forgiven

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Well, this would only "discredit" purgatory if we taught that we are forgiven through another means besides Christ... and since this is not the case, I'm not sure how this discredits anything but your mistaken assumptions about purgatory.

You might want to read some of the links I provided to educate yourself about the topic before commenting.

"(T)he term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection"
-Servant of God Pope John Paul II

ScottRC
Very good suggestion.
Those links help people understand the teaching about Purgatory.
They might not believe it, but at-the-least they can understand it.
I think it is important for Christians to try to understand each other,
That way maybe we can become unified as Jesus asks us to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by arcura

ScottRC
Very good suggestion.
Those links help people understand the teaching about Purgatory.
They might not believe it, but at-the-least they can understand it.
I think it is important for Christians to try to understand each other,
That way maybe we can become unified as Jesus asks us to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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I understand people's thinking they need Purgatory somehow, but that would be discounting Jesus' work of redemption that was sufficient, that was "good enough" to bring us back to God. Meanwhile, because of The Fall, we are all caught up in this sinful condition, this sinful world that groans (Rom 8:22) as weeds fill the garden and mosquitos bite during an evening walk and bad things happen to good people--until the Last Day when Jesus returns.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../amh...tation_neg.gif

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Originally Posted by Lilmkiss
this is a verse that utterly discredits Pergatory

Nope... doesn't even come close.
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this verse's alone in the bible shows us that it is not through anything but Christ we are forgiven
Well, this would only "discredit" purgatory if we taught that we are forgiven through another means besides Christ... and since this is not the case, I'm not sure how this discredits anything but your mistaken assumptions about purgatory.

But it does seem to be the case, you are taught man's traditions, not God's love, Grace and Mercy and the cleansing Blood of Christ.

Peace and love in Him...

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

But it does seem to be the case,

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What it "seems" to be is not the issue here... you continue to bear false witness and then somehow try to preach about the Gospel... hardly a good example.

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not God's love, Grace and Mercy and the cleansing Blood of Christ.

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Again, please provide some supporting evidence of this or repent for bearing false witness... :mad:

Hello Scott,

Yes, I’m well. Thanks for asking.

You wrote:

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Is purgatory found in Scripture? You decide:

Scripture speaks of a cleansing spiritual fire: (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Pet 1:7)

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Do you believe this cleansing spiritual fire to be purgatory? If you do, then you did present this verse as supporting purgatory.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

and since I offered DOZENS of other Bible verses as what I believe is support for this doctrine, I could simply retract 1 Pet from the conversation and be no worse for the wear... know what I mean?

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So you do believe that 1 Peter 1:7 supports the doctrine of purgatory, but in the paragraph above you deny that you ever said so:

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Well, to be clear... I don't believe I EVER stated that the verse in question is "speaking of purgatory" or that it was a "literal proof-text for purgatory"... or ANYTHING of the kind.

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In order to be able to retract it as support for the doctrine, you would have had to of entered it. So you did say that it supports the doctrine of purgatory (is speaking of purgatory). Secondly, yes you would be worse for the wear. If we go over those verses one by one and then you deny one by one that you ever stated it was speaking of purgatory, or that it does so only allegorically then you’ve provided no positive biblical evidence for purgatory. And that seems to be what you’ll do, if the recent past is any indication.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

One of the main reasons the Protestant reformers removed books from the Bible is that the doctrine of Purgatory is quite evident in one:

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The fact is Scott, the Deuterocanonicals always had those who didn’t believe they were scripture. The Fathers who had some personal knowledge of Hebrew (such as Origen and Jerome), or who made an effort to learn what the limits of the Jewish canon were (Melito of Sardis) were usually careful not to attribute canonicity to the Apocryphal books. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Amphilochius drew up formal lists of the OT scriptures in which the Apocrypha do not appear. Jerome spoke out for the Hebrew canon. Up to the eve of the Reformation a continuous succession of the more learned Fathers and theologians in the west maintained the distinctive and unique authority of the books of the Hebrew canon. Cardinal Ximenes in the preface to the Complutensian Polyglot edition of the Bible which he edited supported the Hebrew canon. Even Luther’s opponent at Augsburg, Cardinal Cajetan, in 1518 gave an unhesitating approval to the Hebrew canon in his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament, which he dedicated in 1532 to Pope Clement VII.

The text from II Macc speaks of those guilty of idolatry. Since that is a mortal sin, it’s incompatible with your view of purgatory.

Finally, “the fathers” don’t speak of a belief in purgatory. Yes, some of those fathers mentioned believe in purgatory, but others that you referred to (pre Augustine) spoke of prayers for the dead. Prayers for the dead is not equal to a belief in purgatory. That fact is undeniable. The Eastern Orthodox believe in prayers for the dead, but do not believe in purgatory. Therefore to say that Tertullian, Origen, etc. believed in purgatory is not true.

In summation, yes you did present 1 Peter 1:7 in an effort to support your doctrine of purgatory, even though you now deny doing so. Secondly, your claim about Luther and the Apocrypha is an attempt to bolster the idea that the Apocrypha was always viewed as scripture, which it wasn't. Maccabees does nothing to support your doctrine of purgatory, unless those guilty of mortal sins go there - which is something that your church denies. Finally, to say that the fathers such as Tertullian, Origen, and etc., believed in purgatory is false. You are confusing prayers for the dead with a belief in purgatory. So, in short, it seems you aren't making your case.

I’ll look to the teachings of the church as taught 2,000 years ago. That church did not teach purgatory. Of course, you are free to search for the truth in the way your conscience leads you.

Pax,

Rob

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

I certainly think it is!!!

Let's rephrase that .... purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not, according to sndbay's PERSONAL OPINION, in the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

So, yet again, unless you can show me why your personal opinion is somehow divine and infallible, we're back to square one.:D

I don't know why it's not obvious to you and yours when participating in a thread like this how Scripture is not formally sufficient to establish orthodoxy.... without authority to decide, all we have is your opinion vs. my opinion.... in other words - no way to determine who is right.... and this should CLEARLY illustrate the failure of the Protestant heresy.

Peace be with you,
Scott

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Because there is nothing in scripture that says Christ was unworthy to save us from sin. Of course, someone might count those who mocked Him and put Him on the cross.

Scott I'd like to ask how the balance of faith in Chirst can be both? Scripture tells us many time Christ is our Saviour and you agree.. Why then would you leave Christ and allow purgatory as your choice. Is it just because it is the faith of the church?

Are you saying there is no way to determine whether Christ was worthy? For He is the right way.

And note that scripture says one can't be double minded.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Let's rephrase that .... purgatory is of the faith of the Catholic church and is not, according to sndbay's PERSONAL OPINION, in the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

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I'm fine with your statement, and in fact again the statement shows by whom's the faith of purgatory does come from.

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Originally Posted by rhadsen

Do you believe this cleansing spiritual fire to be purgatory? If you do, then you did present this verse as supporting purgatory.

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I thought we already went over this...

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So you do believe that 1 Peter 1:7 supports the doctrine of purgatory, but in the paragraph above you deny that you ever said so:

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Again... didn't we already do this? Allegorical sense of scripture... ringing any bells or am I losing my mind?:D

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If we go over those verses one by one and then you deny one by one that you ever stated it was speaking of purgatory, or that it does so only allegorically then you’ve provided no positive biblical evidence for purgatory.

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Define "positive biblical evidence" for me please.

Just FYI:
According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

"It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."(CCC)

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The fact is Scott, the Deuterocanonicals always had those who didn’t believe they were scripture.

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Fair enough.

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Finally, “the fathers” don’t speak of a belief in purgatory.

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Something to consider: The Roots of Purgatory

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I’ll look to the teachings of the church as taught 2,000 years ago. That church did not teach purgatory.

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I'm curious, did it need to for a teaching to be orthodox?

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

Well, this would only "discredit" purgatory if we taught that we are forgiven through another means besides Christ.... and since this is not the case, I'm not sure how this discredits anything but your mistaken assumptions about purgatory.

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It seems that whenever a cl;aim is made about purgatory, that claim is subsequently denied when scripture is brought forward discrediting that view. It is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Fred said in a recently message that purgatory was a positive doctrine because due to purgatory, people can get to heaven.

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Originally Posted by arcura

I think it is important for Christians to try to understand each other,
That way maybe we can become unified as Jesus asks us to be.

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Fred,

Christians (those who are saved) are unified through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did not tell us to unify ourselves but rather He prayed to the father that we be unified and the Father provided the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We do not answer prayer.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

"(T)he term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection"
-Servant of God Pope John Paul II

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Nope, not purgatory.

Heb 10:14-15
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It seems that whenever a cl;aim is made about purgatory, that claim is subsequently denied when scripture is brought forward discrediting that view. It is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Fred said in a recently message that purgatory was a positive doctrine because due to purgatory, people can get to heaven.

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Thank you Tom. That was the same point that I was trying to make in post #373, but you pointed it out in a more neat and tidy manner. If he is not trying to prove the existence of purgatory by referring to 1 Peter 1:7, then why is he referring to it? Do you understand it? I don't. That is why despite the fact that he is implying he could introduce a whole list of verses into evidence it would be pointless to discuss them with him here. Does he think that we would discuss each of them only to have him deny later that he was trying to prove the existence of purgatory by presenting them?

Secondly, Scott is clearly an educated man. Therefore, he has to know that there is a difference between belief in prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory. One is not the other. To imply otherwise is less than honest. If the poster was uninformed or uneducated, we could look past it. This clearly is not the case with Scott.

I really take offense at the implication that Luther was a lone maverick in not accepting the Apocrypha as scripture. The fact that Scott did not counter the evidence that I offered shows, in my mind anyway, that he knows that Luther was not the first to raise objections to including 2 Maccabees and others in the canon. It's as if he's going to imply that Luther was the first to have a problem with including the Apocrypha in the OT canon and hope that no one here knows the history of the Apocryphal books and their relation to the canon. Once again, as an obviously educated man, he had to have been aware of the information that I presented in post #373 regarding the Apocrypha. Yet, he was hoping that what he was implying about Luther would stick. I don't see that as an honest way to discuss a topic.

Rob