Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Except that in the verses we've discussed, faith implies a working faith. If works do not accompany faith, then the faith is dead:

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Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works, then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works, then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith.

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Perfect!! You have now joined works to faith and it is no longer faith alone. Read in James:
James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?


And also:

James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Perfect!!! You have now joined works to faith and it is no longer faith alone. Read in James:
James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?


And also:

James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Why do you always act like someone just came around to your way of thinking whenever that is what they believed all along but you didn't take what they said that way because you are busy putting the Catholic spin on it?
Toms NEVER said or suggested it is faith alone! He has always said that faith PRODUCES works.
I think if you could set aside the Catholic teachings for awhile and just discuss Bible more you would see that Tom does believe some of the same ways as you do on SOME things.
It is not his finally coming around in his thinking.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Isn't that your burden to prove? Not that the rich man is in "hades" temporarily but that he is in "hades" permanently.

Since the Church Fathers you referenced seem to be using the terminology "hades", isn't it imperative that you prove that they don't mean the abode of the dead but the abode of the damned?

In addition, since the topic of this discussion is "Purgatory". Shouldn't you first prove that the Church Fathers did not believe in the concept of Purgatory, whether or not, they used that word to describe it?

The Roots of Purgatory
The Roots of Purgatory



Great thinking! I love the logic. You realize however, that it is you who are the Sola Scripturist and I the one who believes in Scripture and Tradition.

Therefore, since the rest of the verses are about a faithful son of Abraham who is suffering in fire for his sins of ommission, I infer that it is Purgatory.

So, it is you must prove FROM SCRIPTURE. Not I. Follow?



Thanks. I agree. Except I am absolutely certain there is not.



Wrong. In a parable, the protagonists are unnamed because they are symbolic of truths being expressed.

But this is a narrative. The protagonist is named. And Church tradition tells us the name of the other person. His name is Dies.

Therefore, again, although you are stuck searching for truth in the Scriptures alone. Tradition helps me to fill in the gaps.



Here you are displaying an unreasonable attitude displayed by Protestants against the Pharisees. Because of your Sola Scripturist attitude, you actually believe that all Pharisees went to hell.

But not all Pharisees were abusing their position. Certainly a significant number were, but not all.



You are correct. But these are teachings. They have to be written in black and white because one must generalize from them.

Now, let me ask you. Have you ever walked past a poor man without giving him something to eat or drink?

I know that I have. And I know that many in this United States have done so. Does that mean we will go to hell?

On the other hand, even Jesus said, "Mark 14 7 For the poor you have always with you: and whensoever you will, you may do them good: but me you have not always."

So, there is really not enough information in this narrative in order to condemn the Rich Man eternally. Do you know if he is a faithful husband? A faifhful and loving son to his father and moter? A good citizen paying his taxes and dues? Yet if this man fails in feeding one poor man, is he condemned to eternal damnation? Does that sound fair to you?

It doesn't sound fair to me and to be perfectly honest, I will probably have the same destiny as the Rich Man. Since I fare sumptuously everyday and yet I'm aware of much starvation throughout the world.

So, if you are correct, I am already condemned to eternal fire. Where do you stand? Have you helped everyone that you can help? Or have you also ignored the poverty at your doorstep?



Your logic doesn't follow. When you anger your father, do you cease to call him father? When you anger your mother, do you thereby cease to be her son? When you sin against God, do you then deny His Fatherhood?

Obviously, like all humans in distress, Dives is calling out to those he thinks love him and will have compassion on him. This is not what one would expect of any soul in perdition.



No. I'm not simply skimming. I'm reading. However your logic is faulty. As I said, the word in that verse is already modified. It is clear that it refers to those human spirits which were disobedient during the time of the flood.



I must modify what your words slightly in order to agree with them:

I am claiming that Noah's contemporaries which were described as "some time incredulous" were in an imperfect state of God's grace and friendship. That is precisely why they were in prison and not in eternal damnation.

Where exactly did you see me practicing , as you call it, "esegesis?"



It seems manifest to me. I don't even understand how you can question that it isn't a reward.

Perhaps if you compare to this parable. For the sake of brevity, please read Matt 20:1-16.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Nicely done – very logical response to the points. Have you ever noticed that the only way to prove Sola Scriptura with logic is to read the Scripture with Catholic discipline? And, it seems to me that the more rigorous the discipline is rooted in our love for Christ, the more logical it becomes. Now that’s grace at work!

JoeT

To Rob, (Rharden),

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Where exactly did you see me practicing , as you call it, "esegesis?"

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Perhaps that is too strong a word. I'm sorry. But I certainly believe that your exegesis is in error.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Perfect!!! You have now joined works to faith and it is no longer faith alone. Read in James:
James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

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Do you even read what is written? If you had, you could not possibly have mis-represented what I said so badly.

Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Do you even read what is written? If you had, you could not possibly have mis-represented what I said so badly.

Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

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I didn't misrepresent what you said. I simply clarified for all concerned, the illogical idea you presented.

Here's what you said:

Quote:

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Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works,

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First you admitted that a faith without works is not a saving faith.

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then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith

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.

Then you claimed that the works which made the faith perfect had nothing to do with our salvation. That is plainly illogical and contradicts Scripture:

James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Why do you always act like someone just came around to your way of thinking whenever that is what they believed all along but you didn't take what they said that way because you are busy putting the Catholic spin on it?
Toms NEVER said or suggested it is faith alone! He has always said that faith PRODUCES works.

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But Tom says that works have nothing to do with salvation.

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See message #644
Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

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That is what faith alone means.

We, Catholics believe we are justified by faith and works. In fact, according to James, we are justified by works.

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

And that is correct because faith itself is a work:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

That is what we are discussing. The difference between the Protestant doctrine of faith alone and the Catholic doctrine of faith and works.

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I think if you could set aside the Catholic teachings for awhile and just discuss Bible more you would see that Tom does believe some of the same ways as you do on SOME things.

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This isn't one of them.

Where do you stand? Do you believe we are saved by faith alone?

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It is not his finally coming around in his thinking.

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Nor did I think he had. I was merely celebrating because he made an error in logic and I could use it to highlight the Catholic doctrine.

You may not realize that TJ and I have had these discussions long before you came to the forum. I'm pretty certain that TJ won't be convinced by my arguments. I simply reiterate my statements for the edification of those who might be reading our discussion.

Sincerely,

De Maria

NO it is not illogical. Works DO NOT save they are a reflection of your faith.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I didn't misrepresent what you said. I simply clarified for all concerned, the illogical idea you presented.

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Weasel words for claiming the right to mis-represent.

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Here's what you said:

First you admitted that a faith without works is not a saving faith.

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No I didn't. See? You mis-represent me again. I ew-iterated what scripture says - the evidence of faith is being faithful, and the result of that is works.

Works is the evidence that you have faith.

Now, I would suggest that you worry about defending your position rather than telling others what they think. You are having enough problems with the former.:D

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Weasel words for claiming the right to mis-represent.

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Sticks and stones...

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No I didn't. See? You mis-represent me again. I ew-iterated what scripture says - the evidence of faith is being faithful, and the result of that is works.

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No, I quoted your words. Look at my message. Then I highlighted how illogical was the idea you presented. Here I'll copy it into this message:

Quote:

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Here's what you said:
Quote:
Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works,

First you admitted that a faith without works is not a saving faith.

Quote:
Then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith
.

Then you claimed that the works which made the faith perfect had nothing to do with our salvation. That is plainly illogical and contradicts Scripture:

James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

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Quote:

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Works is the evidence that you have faith.

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Good! Now follow that logic.

First you said that:
Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation

Now you are saying that works are the evidence of faith. See above.

Logically speaking then, if a faith without works is not faith. And we are saved by faith alone. Then a saving faith is faith which is accompanied by works. Therefore we are saved by faith and works.

So, if you say that works play no part in our salvation, you are contradicting yourself and Scripture.

Quote:

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Now, I would suggest that you worry about defending your position rather than telling others what they think. You are having enough problems with the former.:D

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Nah. You're floundering. There is no way for you to come out of this logical quagmire which you've created.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

NO it is not illogical. works DO NOT save they are a reflection of your faith.

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I know you don't want to believe me because you're prejudiced against the Catholic Church. But if you don't want to believe me, at least believe Scripture.

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

NO I am not prejudice against the Catholic church that is your assumption.

Can you post which post that is of Toms that you just quoted because it looks like you have two completely different quotes mixed together.


ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that
Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you??

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Sticks and stones...

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I said nothing about you, but rather your behaviour is mis-representing what I said.

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No, I quoted your words.

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You quoted and then mis-represented. I saw it. Other people are more respectful - quote and then discuss what I really said.

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Now you are saying that works are the evidence of faith.

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This is what I said from the start. Of course there who cannot deal with the truth who will claim otherwise - but cannot find quotes where I said any such thing.

Can you not handle the truth?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I know you don't want to believe me because you're prejudiced against the Catholic Church. But if you don't want to believe me, at least believe Scripture.

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Stay off the ad hominems and deal with the issue.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

NO I am not prejudice against the Catholic church that is your assumption.

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My assumption is based on the content of your messages.

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Can you post which post that is of Toms that you just quoted because it looks like you have two completely different quotes mixed together.

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Is this the one you mean:
See message #644

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Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

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Its one quote from one message.

Quote:

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ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you??

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They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:

Isaias 6 6 And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Do you even read what is written? If you had, you could not possibly have mis-represented what I said so badly.

Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

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How does that look like this??

Here's what you said:
Quote:
Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works,

First you admitted that a faith without works is not a saving faith.

Quote:
Then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith
.

Then you claimed that the works which made the faith perfect had nothing to do with our salvation. That is plainly illogical and contradicts Scripture:

James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:

Isaias 6 6 And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

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Quite a story! It would be much better if you could actually validate the following claims using scripture:

1) That purgatory exists
2) That we are saved in the mythical place called purgatory
3) That we are not saved and perfected solely by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
4) that we can get out of the place of eternal fire.

ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you??

De Marie:
They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:


So you are saying we go through TWO fires. One that burns our works and THEN one that burns our sins.

How do you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is after the Judgment?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you????

De Marie:
They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:


So you are saying we go through TWO fires. One that burns our works and THEN one that burns our sins.

How do you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is after the Judgment?

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Good questions!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you????

De Marie:
They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:


So you are saying we go through TWO fires. One that burns our works and THEN one that burns our sins.

How do you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is after the Judgment?

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I thought you agreed before that sins were works of iniquity? Or was it someone else?

And no, it's the same fire. The Consuming Fire that punishes in Hell, is the same Fire that cleanses in Purgatory and Glorifies in Heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Quite a story! It would be much better if you could actually validate the following claims using scripture:

1) That purgatory exists
2) That we are saved in the mythical place called purgatory
3) That we are not saved and perfected solely by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
4) that we can get out of the place of eternal fire.

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The questions have been answered throughout this thread. Follow along now.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I thought you agreed before that sins were works of iniquity? Or was it someone else?

And no, its the same fire. The Consuming Fire that punishes in Hell, is the same Fire that cleanses in Purgatory and Glorifies in Heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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So, you are saying that wherever we go after death, your view that we will all be in a lake of everlasting fire - right?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The questions have been answered throughout this thread. Follow along now.

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Avoiding questions again, De Maria? Tsk tsk.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Gosh Peter???

Couldn't you shorten it just a bit. Posting entire websites makes it kind of hard to have a decent discussion. Would you like for me to post the entire Catholic encyclopedia in response?

Besides, I think thats against the rules. Lets be reasonable, shall we?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Sorry, it was a bit long, I actually scanned it from a book, seemed to work pretty good, I have never done that before.
I just bought a new Brother MFC- 465cn.
Seems to work pretty good!
Cheers.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

Sorry, it was a bit long, I actually scanned it from a book, seemed to work pretty good, I have never done that before.
I just bought a new Brother MFC- 465cn.
Seems to work pretty good!
Cheers.:)

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Oh no!!

He's got a scanner!! :eek:

Seriously, though, that is handy. I've tried scanning stuff onto websites from my two bit machine but it never works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Avoiding questions again, De Maria? Tsk tsk.

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Naw. It was late and I was sleepy. I figgered if you wanted some answers sooner than I could provide them, you might follow the thread. The answers have all been previously provided:

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1) That purgatory exists

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Several verses have been provided from Scripture:
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

And we've discussed the one about prison:
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

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2) That we are saved in the mythical place called purgatory

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I think you're making the same logical error as Nohelp4u. Once in Purgatory, you are saved, as through fire.

Oh and Purgatory is neither a place nor is it mythical.

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3) That we are not saved and perfected ... by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

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Did I say that? When?

In fact, I've said that Purgatory is the application of the graces released by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

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3a) That we are not saved and perfected solely by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

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That is in Scripture:
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

You see, the Bible does not teach we are perfected "solely" by the suffering of Christ on the Cross. The Bible teaches that we must also suffer:

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

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4) that we can get out of the place of eternal fire.

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Who said that? Purgatory is not the place of eternal punishment.

Oh, wait, you said eternal fire. Who would want to do that?

God is Consuming Fire:
Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

God is eternal:
Daniel 6 26 It is decreed by me, that in all my empire and my kingdom all men dread and fear the God of Daniel. For he is the living and eternal God for ever: and his kingdom shall not be destroyed, and his power shall be for ever.

I, for one, am longing for union with that Eternal Fire!!

Luke 12 49 I am come to cast fire on the earth; and what will I, but that it be kindled?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I, for one, am longing for union with that Eternal Fire!!!

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Have fun! I'll be in the celestial kitchen baking brownies.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Have fun! I'll be in the celestial kitchen baking brownies.

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Lol!! Good one!

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Naw. It was late and I was sleepy. I figgered if you wanted some answers sooner than I could provide them, you might follow the thread. The answers have all been previously provided:

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Let's have a look at what you say are answers.

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Several verses have been provided from Scripture:
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

And we've discussed the one about prison:
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

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How many times must you be shown that, in context, these do not say what you claim.

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I think you're making the same logical error as Nohelp4u. Once in Purgatory, you are saved, as through fire.

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It is not enolugh for you to say it - where is it in scripture?

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Oh and Purgatory is neither a place nor is it mythical.

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Half right - it is not a place.

D

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id I say that? When?

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Many times in many ways. But rather than spending time arguing whether you did say it, if you agree that we are saved and perfected by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross alone, then there is no need for the mythical place of purgatory.

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Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

You see, the Bible does not teach we are perfected "solely" by the suffering of Christ on the Cross. The Bible teaches that we must also suffer:

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

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Colossians referws to sufferings in the flesh, not in the mythical place of purgatory.

Heb 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Note the past tense?

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Who said that? Purgatory is not the place of eternal punishment.

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Oh, wait, you said eternal fire.

So you are saying that purgatory will go away? It is not eternal?

Quote:

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Who would want to do that?

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Do what - get out of eternal fire? Who wouldn't?

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God is Consuming Fire:
Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

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Yes, we have been through that already. Are you planning to be on the receiving end of God's anger for His enemies?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Let's have a look at what you say are answers.
How many times must you be shown that, in context, these do not say what you claim.

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Once at a minimum. But you have yet to show anything.

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It is not enolugh for you to say it - where is it in scripture?

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Nor is it enough for you to simply deny it.

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Half right - it is not a place. D

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You are reduced to quips? If you have an argument make it.

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Many times in many ways. But rather than spending time arguing whether you did say it, if you agree that we are saved and perfected by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross alone, then there is no need for the mythical place of purgatory.

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Whether there is a need for purgatory is a moot point. It is a reality which God has revealed.

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Colossians referws to sufferings in the flesh, not in the mythical place of purgatory.

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But the point is that Colossians mentions the:

and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ

That is pretty explicit. The suffering of Christ is wanting.

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Heb 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Note the past tense?

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Duly noted. Note the "are being sanctified." In other words, they have not yet been but will be in the future.

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So you are saying that purgatory will go away? It is not eternal?

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Apocalypse 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

Note that death and hell (or hades) gives up its dead. And the dead are judged according to their works. Then hell and death are cast into the pool of fire.

Of the dead who were judged, if they were not found in the book of life, they are also cast into the pool of fire.

So, yes, purgatory will go away.

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Do what - get out of eternal fire? Who wouldn't?

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I suppose if you believe that God is not eternal fire, you would not want eternal fire.

However, I believe Scripture. Our God is a consuming fire. And how I long to be consumed by that Fire.

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Yes, we have been through that already. Are you planning to be on the receiving end of God's anger for His enemies?

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No. If we love God, we have no need to fear fire.

1 Machabees 2 59 Ananias and Azarias and Misael by believing, were delivered out of the flame.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Once at a minimum. But you have yet to show anything.

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Actually that is not true. You need to be shown at least once (you must have been shown at least a couple of dozen times), but does nothing unless you read it at least once.

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Nor is it enough for you to simply deny it.

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Which is why we keep showing you what scripture says.

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It is a reality which God has revealed.

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Well out with it - have you been holding back? Where did God reveal it?

Quote:

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But the point is that Colossians mentions the:

and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ

That is pretty explicit. The suffering of Christ is wanting.

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I wuish you would get a decent tranlsation. Clearly it is causing you a great deal of difficulty.

Col 1:21-29
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
NKJV

Not that the context and the topic is the suffering of Paul in the flesh, not the suffering of Christ. Paul is referring to his suffering in the flesh for the cause of Christ. But in any case, even if your erroneous translation were used, it still says nothing about suffering after death, so though we could debate this point further, your point is already lost.

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Duly noted. Note the "are being sanctified." In other words, they have not yet been but will be in the future.

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Yep that is what I am saying. Note that sanctification occurs in the flesh, so you cannot claim that this has anything to do with purgatory either.

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Apocalypse 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

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The fiery place referred to here is hell, so are you therefore conceding that purgatory is in fact "hell"?

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I suppose if you believe that God is not eternal fire, you would not want eternal fire.

However, I believe Scripture. Our God is a consuming fire. And how I long to be consumed by that Fire.

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Even though you have been warned that it is symbolic of how God destroys those who are His enemies. That is quite an admission on your part.

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1 Machabees 2 59 Ananias and Azarias and Misael by believing, were delivered out of the flame.

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You do know that even Maccabees itself says that it is not an inspired work.

The early Christian Church was Greek-speaking; it therefore used
The LXX. Even though the LXX sometimes gave different readings
From the original Hebrew and had "extra" books interspersed with
The rest, the early Church believed it to be inspired. "With
regard to whatever is in the Septuagint that is not in the Hebrew
manuscripts, we can say that the one Spirit wished to say to them
through the writers of the former rather than through the latter
in order to show that both the one and the other were inspired"
(St. Augustine, City of God, 18:43).

Hence the Orthodox Church uses only the LXX and not the original
Hebrew as the official inspired OT. The LXX, compared to the
Hebrew Bible, has the following additional books: Tobit, Judith,
Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch (including the Letter of
Jeremias), 1-3 Machabees, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, 1
Esdras, additions to Esther and Daniel, and very rarely, 4
Machabees since it was not widely available and was never
Considered inspired.

This is not my work this was written by as far as I can tell the author of the web site http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/bible.txt

But is explains why in simple terms why Maccabees is not and inspired work of God(aka the original bible was written by you guess it the Jew's and these books where never used by them there for since they are the original writers of the bible I would be overly confident in the fact that if they say that those books are not books inspired by God that they aren't plain and simple. (only when it comes to the old testament!)

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Originally Posted by Lilmkiss

but is explains why in simple terms why Maccabees is not and inspired work of God(aka the original bible was written by you guess it the Jew's and these books where never used by them there for since they are the original writers of the bible i would be overly confident in the fact that if they say that those books are not books inspired by God that they arn't plain and simple. (only when it comes to the old testament!)

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Maccabees has internal evidence that it is not inspired:

2 Maccabees 15:37-38
This then is how matters turned out with Nicanor, and from that time the city has been in the possession of the Hebrews. So I will here end my story. If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that was the best I could do.
NRSV

Clearly the author is giving no credit to divine inspiration. He takes full credit and full responsibility for the contents.

Post closed, no attacking members and attacking faith of other people.